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30 Responses to “Ridiculously Important Information: Socketing”
What about the gems that drop in Heroics like [Defender’s Tanzanite] ? I put it in my Battlescar Boots and traded a total +8 Parry Rating (0.25%) for 6 Stamina (60 hp). Would parry make more sense for a threat/aggro set?
It just seems like rewards from parry, dodge, and defense rating aren’t good enough to justify the loss of stamina. Like putting three 8 parry rating gems in an item will give .75% chance to parry. Whereas you could use those slots for three 12 stam gems and get about 400 health (prot talents). And if you’re building a threat gen set, you’ll want to actually get hit to have a nice rage bar, so parry I think would actually be bad. So since you want to get hit, you’ll probably want the health to be able to take those hits.
Feel free to butt in if I completely wrong here Vene. I’m just a dumb warlock that loves making your job tough
Well, I like to try and stay kinda balanced in my main gear set…I have more than enough health armor and avoidance for what I’m currently into…the only other gear set I find myself needing is a threat set for 5 mans. I do try to get all the tank-aimed bonuses I can, but if I had 3 red sockets per say, I wouldn’t put 3 +8 dodge/parry rating gems in, I’d probably put a +5parry +6stam, a +5dodge +6stam, and, oh I don’t know, a +4agi +6stam gem? Stamina is of course most important, but I like the avoidance if I can get it for new hard hitting encounters.
Then again I’m a Tauren…so I get about 700 more HP than other tanks with the same gear and gems. /cackle
See for new encounters, that’s where Stamina truly shines! Stamina and Armor are your guard against Burst Damage. Burst Damage is the stuff that kills ya!
Yea, having high amounts of avoidance means that you’re depending on luck to do well at tanking. Whereas stacking armor and hp means you’re going to be taking more consistent damage, just less per attack. The most common excuse from healers after the MT dies is some form of, “I dunno, you were at like 60% health and just dropped off the planet. WUR U CRIT?!?”
Yup, I go 100% Solid Star of Elune (well, I have 1 epic gem… parry/stam)… Course, that makes replacing new gear more expensive, but it’s just gold…
New bracers AND a new helm dropped for me in Kara last night, so now I have to pony up the cash for 4 new gems and 1 new helm enchant. It’s a good “problem” to have: 2 plate drops in 4 bosses (and a lost roll on my T4 gloves) = Sweet Tank Love.
Again, depends on what you’re fighting. If you’re tanking Gruul you need the high HP and armor so you don’t “drop off the planet” as you say when he gets passed 10 growths, but if you’re tanking Prince without some decent avoidance you’ll exhaust your healers. :/
Also, if I’m fighting Gruul and already have 19k HP buffed, I’d rather avoid all damage 10% more often than someone who has 1k more armor than me and takes about 240 less damage than I would on an 8k hit.
In regards to the Prince fight, I still think that an armor/stamina set is superior so that you don’t randomly die during phase 2.
Regards to 10% vs 1000 armor. I don’t know if you can compare those situations because they don’t present themselves, but we can compare stamina vs dodge.
The reality is that no matter how much dodge you have, you are going to get hit multiple times in a row. Your armor and stamina is what saves you from that situation. Efficient use of healers mana means nothing when you are dead.
The idea of Prince killing you faster than 2 half alert healers can heal you is reaaaally unrealistic if you have decent gear. I have about 14.5k armor unbuffed and he can’t even crushing blow me harder than 4k in phase two…at least I’ve never seen it. What I hear from the healers is the fight is pretty much a snooze fest…one of the easier bosses to heal by far because in phase two the only person taking damage should be the tank. In the event that your healers need to move across the balcony to avoid an infernal, the chance that 1k more health is going to save you is just as likely or even less so than more avoidance. Besides, in that situation the healers should communicate to the tank that they need to move and the tank should blow some CDs accordningly.
Prince is a bad example IMO…if you’re having trouble tanking that one then you have a lot more to worry about. If you have 14k armor, 17k HP buffed, 17% block/dodge/parry and 2-3 decent healers you should be fine.
Gruul on the other hand hits 2-3 times as hard as prince does (on a crushing) in phase two on a normal blocked attack…all this while half+ of your healers are silenced. The MT isn’t even necessarily supposed to live through that fight. Towards the end of the fight a rogue makes a better MT because he can evasion tank. When he’s at 10% some with 20k+ buffed health can’t even shieldwall through is damage.
I’ve seen plenty of warriors that don’t bother with extra avoidance. With similar gear they generally have about 1k more health than me, as you said. 1k-1.5k more armor (which only amounts to about 3% more physical mitigation), and anywhere from 8-10% less complete avoidance.
(Keep in mind I’m a Tauren so I get 10% more HP than most tanks) Without my Auto-Blocker, unbuffed I have about 14.5k armor, 13.8k HP, 12% to be missed, 22.5% to dodge, 17.5% to parry. Many warriors I’ve seen with very similar gear, but socketed with mostly solid stars and a lot more attention to AC have about 15.5k AC, 14.5k HP, 11% to be missed, 16% to dodge, 17% to parry. That’s very realistic and in the ballpark of what I mentioned earlier. Also, because of the gear that’s available, in an emergency situation where no healing is possible, the trinket CDs and avoidance that I can do would be more likely to save me, especially in an 8+ grows Gruul situation, before 1k more HP…possibly even in a Prince phase 2 situation. It’s also undeniable that if you have the healing and mitigation on the Prince fight under control with almost certainly no chance of dying faster than one healer can pop a heal, 8-10% more avoidance is exponentially easier on a healer’s mana.
All arguing aside…my personal rule is usually…if the socket bonus is +stam, +dodge, +parry or even +block value I socket it accordingly. If the bonus is +def or +block rating, I put in all solid stars. Got my Warbringer Shoulderguards last night and put 2 solid stars in them because I have no use for +3 def rating. ^_^;
So all in all went +12 in gems losing about 18 def points. Still hovering at 516. So my question is after 490 stamin is the way to go? Just stay above 490. I think each def point above that is only .04 across the dodge parry block board. Heart of my question just the 490 def required and thus really only needed.
Slowboogie, in answer to your question, yes, 490 is the only solid number we have to work with. In general, I find stamina a generally top-dog stat with armor being one of the only stats that compare to it in raw, pure survivability. I generally dislike anything that relies on chance in this game (i.e dodge, parry, miss etc.)
I will also not be as bold as to say these stats are not important. As in your example, you are losing close to 1% from dodge, parry and block, but you also gaining what I would guess to be 36 stamina. I personally would choose the stamina, a buffer for your healers, especially on progression fights is always welcome. Defense is a stat that largely comes with your gear through no planning of your own. So just stay above that 490 mark and welcome the added avoidance/mitigation stats.
Thanks for the info the resocket of gems has boosted my health by almost 1000 with just the loss of .8 across the dodge parry block board. I think it was a great gain and is also fun to enter a raid with buffs on with health around the 17000 mark.
I should be getting the merciless gladiator’s shield today.
I’ve read that the defense needed using the resilience built in, is 473.
Some say it’s 470, to become crit immune ?
Well i have now a very solid amount of hp (18,5k when buffed) and i was wondering what gems could i put in to boost my threat output.Well i came to the conclusion that hit rating is the stat..How ever there is no way to make a big difference in my hit rating with nerfing like 500 hp…So for now i think too that hp is better.Generally i woud only change to hit rating when we move to encounters we all now well.There hp is not SO importand (ofc as long as you have a solid amount)..
Does anyone know if there are diminishing returns for Dodge/Parry/Block? I’m currently hovering around 25% Dodge, 20% Parry and 20% Block, but I’ve heard that the three mitigations diminish after a summarized total of 60%. If this is the case I intend to gear towards less block (which most of the plate ZA stuff if) and more Stam and threat gear/gems
It’s important to not blindly gem for stamina. I can’t tell you how many poor saps I’ve seen on the armory that have done this, and their +hit absolutely sucks, for instance.
If you feel that your threat output needs to be higher and are willing to sacrifice survivability to do that then that’s fine, but the purpose of the post is that you should not let the colour of the sockets influence this decision.
You can always slot in +hit with trinkets, rings, etc. if you need it. My heroic blood furnace trinket (+30 hit) gets a lot of use. Makes the decision to stack Stam even easier.
Well, all I can say is that my guild runs with less than the recommended number of healers for each instance and keeping me up has never been an issue. And with the extra +hit and expertise, I’m able to give my dps a nice threat ceiling to chase.
But you end up sacrificing DEF instead, which COULD be a problem, depending on what else you’re wearing. There’s another post here discussing the Brooch vs the maiden neck, and whether or not you’ll be able to keep the Autoblocker depending on what other pieces you have. Good post.
I have the brooch, and I’ll be getting the badge bracers next. And I maintain 490 defense with my autoblocker equipped. I also use the tier 3 armorsmithing chest which has 0 defense as well. I guess it’s just a question of how well geared you are to begin with.
But I think I remember somewhere that Blizz was saying that all these new items without defense was supposed to be about giving tanks lots of different options. For example, Vene uses the bonefist gauntlets. And I don’t think i’ll ever end up using them. The brooch and bracers seem too good to take off atm.
July 12th, 2007 at 7:24 am
What is a good socket bonus, +6 Stamina?
What about the gems that drop in Heroics like [Defender’s Tanzanite] ? I put it in my Battlescar Boots and traded a total +8 Parry Rating (0.25%) for 6 Stamina (60 hp). Would parry make more sense for a threat/aggro set?
[Reply]
July 12th, 2007 at 8:14 am
It just seems like rewards from parry, dodge, and defense rating aren’t good enough to justify the loss of stamina. Like putting three 8 parry rating gems in an item will give .75% chance to parry. Whereas you could use those slots for three 12 stam gems and get about 400 health (prot talents). And if you’re building a threat gen set, you’ll want to actually get hit to have a nice rage bar, so parry I think would actually be bad. So since you want to get hit, you’ll probably want the health to be able to take those hits.
Feel free to butt in if I completely wrong here Vene. I’m just a dumb warlock that loves making your job tough
[Reply]
July 12th, 2007 at 2:19 pm
Well, I like to try and stay kinda balanced in my main gear set…I have more than enough health armor and avoidance for what I’m currently into…the only other gear set I find myself needing is a threat set for 5 mans. I do try to get all the tank-aimed bonuses I can, but if I had 3 red sockets per say, I wouldn’t put 3 +8 dodge/parry rating gems in, I’d probably put a +5parry +6stam, a +5dodge +6stam, and, oh I don’t know, a +4agi +6stam gem? Stamina is of course most important, but I like the avoidance if I can get it for new hard hitting encounters.
Then again I’m a Tauren…so I get about 700 more HP than other tanks with the same gear and gems. /cackle
[Reply]
July 12th, 2007 at 2:45 pm
See for new encounters, that’s where Stamina truly shines! Stamina and Armor are your guard against Burst Damage. Burst Damage is the stuff that kills ya!
You can never have too much health
[Reply]
July 12th, 2007 at 4:38 pm
Yea, having high amounts of avoidance means that you’re depending on luck to do well at tanking. Whereas stacking armor and hp means you’re going to be taking more consistent damage, just less per attack. The most common excuse from healers after the MT dies is some form of, “I dunno, you were at like 60% health and just dropped off the planet. WUR U CRIT?!?”
[Reply]
July 13th, 2007 at 4:00 am
Yup, I go 100% Solid Star of Elune (well, I have 1 epic gem… parry/stam)… Course, that makes replacing new gear more expensive, but it’s just gold…
New bracers AND a new helm dropped for me in Kara last night, so now I have to pony up the cash for 4 new gems and 1 new helm enchant. It’s a good “problem” to have: 2 plate drops in 4 bosses (and a lost roll on my T4 gloves) = Sweet Tank Love.
[Reply]
July 13th, 2007 at 8:03 am
Ya I got the Ring off Shade today and the raid almost flipped… Vene is rolling on loot!?
WTB Sweet Tank Love… especially for The Eye.
[Reply]
July 16th, 2007 at 8:11 am
Again, depends on what you’re fighting. If you’re tanking Gruul you need the high HP and armor so you don’t “drop off the planet” as you say when he gets passed 10 growths, but if you’re tanking Prince without some decent avoidance you’ll exhaust your healers. :/
[Reply]
July 16th, 2007 at 8:20 am
Also, if I’m fighting Gruul and already have 19k HP buffed, I’d rather avoid all damage 10% more often than someone who has 1k more armor than me and takes about 240 less damage than I would on an 8k hit.
[Reply]
July 16th, 2007 at 10:42 am
In regards to the Prince fight, I still think that an armor/stamina set is superior so that you don’t randomly die during phase 2.
Regards to 10% vs 1000 armor. I don’t know if you can compare those situations because they don’t present themselves, but we can compare stamina vs dodge.
7 jewel slots:
= 56 dodge rating = ~3% dodge
= 84 stamina = ~1000 health
The reality is that no matter how much dodge you have, you are going to get hit multiple times in a row. Your armor and stamina is what saves you from that situation. Efficient use of healers mana means nothing when you are dead.
[Reply]
July 16th, 2007 at 11:29 am
The idea of Prince killing you faster than 2 half alert healers can heal you is reaaaally unrealistic if you have decent gear. I have about 14.5k armor unbuffed and he can’t even crushing blow me harder than 4k in phase two…at least I’ve never seen it. What I hear from the healers is the fight is pretty much a snooze fest…one of the easier bosses to heal by far because in phase two the only person taking damage should be the tank. In the event that your healers need to move across the balcony to avoid an infernal, the chance that 1k more health is going to save you is just as likely or even less so than more avoidance. Besides, in that situation the healers should communicate to the tank that they need to move and the tank should blow some CDs accordningly.
Prince is a bad example IMO…if you’re having trouble tanking that one then you have a lot more to worry about. If you have 14k armor, 17k HP buffed, 17% block/dodge/parry and 2-3 decent healers you should be fine.
Gruul on the other hand hits 2-3 times as hard as prince does (on a crushing) in phase two on a normal blocked attack…all this while half+ of your healers are silenced. The MT isn’t even necessarily supposed to live through that fight. Towards the end of the fight a rogue makes a better MT because he can evasion tank. When he’s at 10% some with 20k+ buffed health can’t even shieldwall through is damage.
I’ve seen plenty of warriors that don’t bother with extra avoidance. With similar gear they generally have about 1k more health than me, as you said. 1k-1.5k more armor (which only amounts to about 3% more physical mitigation), and anywhere from 8-10% less complete avoidance.
(Keep in mind I’m a Tauren so I get 10% more HP than most tanks) Without my Auto-Blocker, unbuffed I have about 14.5k armor, 13.8k HP, 12% to be missed, 22.5% to dodge, 17.5% to parry. Many warriors I’ve seen with very similar gear, but socketed with mostly solid stars and a lot more attention to AC have about 15.5k AC, 14.5k HP, 11% to be missed, 16% to dodge, 17% to parry. That’s very realistic and in the ballpark of what I mentioned earlier. Also, because of the gear that’s available, in an emergency situation where no healing is possible, the trinket CDs and avoidance that I can do would be more likely to save me, especially in an 8+ grows Gruul situation, before 1k more HP…possibly even in a Prince phase 2 situation. It’s also undeniable that if you have the healing and mitigation on the Prince fight under control with almost certainly no chance of dying faster than one healer can pop a heal, 8-10% more avoidance is exponentially easier on a healer’s mana.
[Reply]
July 16th, 2007 at 11:32 am
Change that 10% to 5%, I just meant 10% as a whole from racials and talents.
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July 16th, 2007 at 12:00 pm
All arguing aside…my personal rule is usually…if the socket bonus is +stam, +dodge, +parry or even +block value I socket it accordingly. If the bonus is +def or +block rating, I put in all solid stars. Got my Warbringer Shoulderguards last night and put 2 solid stars in them because I have no use for +3 def rating. ^_^;
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July 25th, 2007 at 11:07 am
meh @ tara … read satrina’s and cinder’s guides from the wow forums
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August 2nd, 2007 at 12:13 pm
This image delivers
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August 18th, 2007 at 4:30 pm
So all in all went +12 in gems losing about 18 def points. Still hovering at 516. So my question is after 490 stamin is the way to go? Just stay above 490. I think each def point above that is only .04 across the dodge parry block board. Heart of my question just the 490 def required and thus really only needed.
[Reply]
August 20th, 2007 at 1:59 am
Slowboogie, in answer to your question, yes, 490 is the only solid number we have to work with. In general, I find stamina a generally top-dog stat with armor being one of the only stats that compare to it in raw, pure survivability. I generally dislike anything that relies on chance in this game (i.e dodge, parry, miss etc.)
I will also not be as bold as to say these stats are not important. As in your example, you are losing close to 1% from dodge, parry and block, but you also gaining what I would guess to be 36 stamina. I personally would choose the stamina, a buffer for your healers, especially on progression fights is always welcome. Defense is a stat that largely comes with your gear through no planning of your own. So just stay above that 490 mark and welcome the added avoidance/mitigation stats.
[Reply]
August 20th, 2007 at 12:00 pm
Thanks for the info the resocket of gems has boosted my health by almost 1000 with just the loss of .8 across the dodge parry block board. I think it was a great gain and is also fun to enter a raid with buffs on with health around the 17000 mark.
[Reply]
August 21st, 2007 at 4:08 am
I should be getting the merciless gladiator’s shield today.
I’ve read that the defense needed using the resilience built in, is 473.
Some say it’s 470, to become crit immune ?
Anyone have any hard/confirmed numbers for this ?
Phule
[Reply]
August 21st, 2007 at 10:32 am
Regarding 1% immunity to crit:
60 Defense Rating = 25 Defense = 39.4 Resilience
31/39.4 = 0.79 * 25 ~= 20 Defense
So basically 470 Defense + Merciless Gladiator’s Shield Wall = Immune to Crit
[Reply]
October 10th, 2007 at 8:36 am
[…] this. It has pictures and you don’t really have to read. In fact, I’ve already typed more than there is […]
October 14th, 2007 at 7:51 am
Well i have now a very solid amount of hp (18,5k when buffed) and i was wondering what gems could i put in to boost my threat output.Well i came to the conclusion that hit rating is the stat..How ever there is no way to make a big difference in my hit rating with nerfing like 500 hp…So for now i think too that hp is better.Generally i woud only change to hit rating when we move to encounters we all now well.There hp is not SO importand (ofc as long as you have a solid amount)..
[Reply]
November 19th, 2007 at 5:36 pm
Does anyone know if there are diminishing returns for Dodge/Parry/Block? I’m currently hovering around 25% Dodge, 20% Parry and 20% Block, but I’ve heard that the three mitigations diminish after a summarized total of 60%. If this is the case I intend to gear towards less block (which most of the plate ZA stuff if) and more Stam and threat gear/gems
[Reply]
December 11th, 2007 at 10:55 am
It’s important to not blindly gem for stamina. I can’t tell you how many poor saps I’ve seen on the armory that have done this, and their +hit absolutely sucks, for instance.
Balance in all things.
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December 11th, 2007 at 1:57 pm
You cannot hit something if you are not alive.
If you feel that your threat output needs to be higher and are willing to sacrifice survivability to do that then that’s fine, but the purpose of the post is that you should not let the colour of the sockets influence this decision.
[Reply]
December 11th, 2007 at 3:58 pm
You can always slot in +hit with trinkets, rings, etc. if you need it. My heroic blood furnace trinket (+30 hit) gets a lot of use. Makes the decision to stack Stam even easier.
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December 11th, 2007 at 8:38 pm
Well, all I can say is that my guild runs with less than the recommended number of healers for each instance and keeping me up has never been an issue. And with the extra +hit and expertise, I’m able to give my dps a nice threat ceiling to chase.
When I see blind stacking stamina, I think lazy.
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December 12th, 2007 at 9:26 am
With the new badge items, you can get an amazing amount of +hit and expertise without sacrificing hardly any stamina.
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December 12th, 2007 at 12:20 pm
But you end up sacrificing DEF instead, which COULD be a problem, depending on what else you’re wearing. There’s another post here discussing the Brooch vs the maiden neck, and whether or not you’ll be able to keep the Autoblocker depending on what other pieces you have. Good post.
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December 12th, 2007 at 12:29 pm
I have the brooch, and I’ll be getting the badge bracers next. And I maintain 490 defense with my autoblocker equipped. I also use the tier 3 armorsmithing chest which has 0 defense as well. I guess it’s just a question of how well geared you are to begin with.
But I think I remember somewhere that Blizz was saying that all these new items without defense was supposed to be about giving tanks lots of different options. For example, Vene uses the bonefist gauntlets. And I don’t think i’ll ever end up using them. The brooch and bracers seem too good to take off atm.
[Reply]