Are you losing Aggro in 9 Seconds?
…otherwise known as what happens when your 5 man teams are used to Improved Taunt.
Fact #1: You cannot hold Aggro
No matter how hard you try an equally geared, equally skilled dpser can pull aggro from you almost any time they want to.
Fact #2: People don’t care if they get Aggro
However, they do care if they die. In the majority of situations, you having aggro equals the dpser being alive, but make no mistake it is their life they care about.
Fact #3: People expect to be Saved
Your dpsers learn how to live. They learn a set of moves and they know when they are going to pull aggro. Most importantly though they learn when you can taunt and they expect it.
What does this have to do with Improved Taunt?
Your dpsers are used to getting “saved” every 8 seconds. When you spec out of Improved Taunt you can now only “save” them every 10 seconds. This results in a lot of mobs running around right at that magical 9 second mark.
So I’m stuck with Improved Taunt?
Nope. The point of this post (ya I finally got to it…) is that Improved Taunt is not a necessary talent. It’s useful for 5 mans and you’ll definitely “feel” losing it when it’s gone especially for that first month. You shouldn’t second guess yourself though about not taking this talent because there are better uses for 2 skill points when your focus is raiding and most importantly your dpsers will learn.
Or they’ll die 
September 6th, 2007 at 5:01 am
That a dpser can pull aggro is something that they sometimes feel is the tanks fault… I’ve been in groups when the rogue say: “Pick up the aggro speed! I need to feint all the time to not gain aggro!!!”. He wasn’t really mad - but he wanted us to know what a great dps’er he was on his ability to steal aggro.
I actually got flattered… Because he was well geared and if he barely could steal aggro from me even when he tried I must be doing something right
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September 6th, 2007 at 8:27 am
I was recently invited to tank for a group doing heroic runs. I suspected that the group was solid because they were from one of the better (arguably the best) Horde guilds on my server (Kul Tiras). 2 pulls into heroic Underbog, and the enhancement shammy in the group was dead twice… I suggested that I was obviously not as good as the tanks he’s used to rolling with, and maybe he could ‘count to 5′ before DPS’ing. He snickered at the thought, but managed to survive up to the first boss, though he did pull aggro numerous times and the healers somehow kept him alive.
He died again after pulling aggro on one of the two big mobs just before the first boss, and of course, we wiped… “Guys, I don’t have the time or gold to waste by wiping on easy f-ing content…” he blurted out through Vent… and before I could “apologize” for MY obvious lack of tanking ability (please note my sarcasm) he was gone, dropped from group, disconnected from Vent…
Let’s just say I haven’t grouped with that guy again, though I’ve done several heroics with guys from his guild with no other issues.
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September 7th, 2007 at 1:02 am
Enh Shammies aggro is stupidly high. I rolled one when TBC was out and in every PUG I did I always started with: “Sorry if I pull agro sometimes, but I can’t control it :S”
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September 7th, 2007 at 10:21 am
It funny how dps’ers always forget they do a heck of a lot less damage dead than if they would just take it easy sometimes.
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September 7th, 2007 at 10:50 am
God, you hit the nail on the head on this one! We have a few dpsers who are famous for this. The prime example to me is in Kara on the Ushers before the opera event. It’s really easy to see who remembers to hold dps til after the first ice tomb and who doesn’t.
Like you said, Hey, it’s not MY repair bill!
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September 13th, 2007 at 8:20 am
I must say that Vene has spoiled me.
As an affliction warlock, I usually don’t even care about my threat (on non-boss mobs). I stand at range, and when I pull aggro, Vene is almost instantly intervening me and taunting it back. If I pull aggro within 10 seconds, I have deathcoil. If I pull again, I have instant fear. If I pull AGAIN, i have soulshatter.
So basically, I stand in one spot, and go balls to the wall, while watching that fat little orc run round and round trying to keep aggro.
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November 1st, 2007 at 4:13 am
Well Speidel if you were in my group I’d deliberately refuse to taunt off you and let you die to teach you to L2P. You proved exactly the point that being routinely reliable in taunting enemies off people is actually a bad thing with regards to tanking as people come to expect taunt to save their arses and start not caring about their threat. A good DPSer knows when he’s about to pull agro and if they are using Omen they get a Warning when they reach 90% of the Tank’s threat so there is no excuse.
At the end of the day Taunting is not a reliable means to get agro back because it can resist, As can Challening Shout (which has such a hefty cooldown you don’t want to waste it), Mocking Blow is even more unreliable as it can be Blocked, Dodged, Missed, Parried…
A DPSer is always the most expendable person in a group, in an average 5 man group you have 3 of them so one can easily die with little effect to killing the boss or trash pack. In a 10 or 25 man raid you have more DPSers and as mobs can be taunt immune if they overnuke in a raid environment they will die so its a good lesson to learn ready for raiding.
My philosophy is I don’t want my taunts to be on cooldown because of routinely noobish DPSers deliberately overnuking when it may be needed to save my healer (and thus prevent a total wipe) if we get an unexpected add running in.
As others have already said people do not care if they rip agro enough but they do if they die and start getting repair bills.
Ultimately Improved taunt should not be needed as a talent at all, if you need to taunt every 8 sec either your too slow in building agro, or your DPSers are too trigger happy and need to be taught to slow down or stop attacking with the ultimate persuader the repair bill…
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November 1st, 2007 at 7:17 am
One thing to note, Challenging Shout is only wasted if you don’t use it. (There’ll probably be a post about this and Mocking Blow use in the future)
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November 1st, 2007 at 7:35 am
Briga, my post was mostly a joke. The last time I legitimately pulled aggro off of Vene was Nightbane (we’re in SSC now).
Now, heroics are a different thing. Pulling aggro on a heroic mob isn’t the end of the world. And like 90% of the time, I kill the mob before it even reaches me. Part of being a good tank is knowing when NOT to taunt. If I peel off a mob at 20%, let the damn thing go.
So you try to teach your DPSers to hold back? Have fun on Gruul, VR, Mag, and so on… If you purposely save taunts for healers and adds, then your DPSers must hate you and your runs take forever.
Hell, let’s say I reach 100% of your threat, then crit for 6k. Pressing that taunt button = instant 6k more threat. When I’m tanking, and I see someone fly over me in threat, I’ll taunt even if I still have aggro.
Your arguements Briga are just like how a rogue QQs after losing a duel. “I didn’t use my cooldowns because I don’t need to.” If you’re going to purposely withold taunts, have fun tanking my seduce target.
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January 8th, 2008 at 8:52 pm
Taunt is typically used when one loses aggro, under the presumption dps will stop / slow down so you can catch up.
It *can* be used pre-emptively. I typically use it on the last 30% with mob in trash (it will be active by the next pull) if I think I might lose it.
The purpose is to make the run as smooth as possible. Sure I can let the mob go and it will die on its way to the mage, but it doesn’t have to happen.
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January 9th, 2008 at 1:59 am
Actually taunt is very useful in MH
Since I’ve started MH with my guild I thinked to put back those 2 points in improved taunt.
In the confusion of the waves fight a mob that point a mage/lock/spriest can happend, and improved taunt helps you to save one life (since if you don’t stop that mob your team-mate will be one-shotted, and this always happend in the “magical” 9th second of normal taunt! ^^).
cheers
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January 25th, 2008 at 4:20 pm
I just have to say that my life would be boring if I didn’t have to run around like a raving mad cow, trying to save rotting cadavers in pajamas from dying after hurling a ball of fire the size of texas on an angry mob.
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May 7th, 2008 at 2:14 am
Before I begin five mans, I usually post up my marking macros (I usually go with the same class layout). I also post up a macro clearing stating that the DPS must give me some seconds to gain threat, especially since sometimes - I will dodge/parry the first few hits, therefore not allowing me to get that shield slam in. Then I find myself, 30 minutes later reminding them again, give me seconds or you will die - no doubt.
I do have improved taunt, it comes in extremely handy since I’m currently only tanking heroics/Karazhan. Maybe when I move on to full time 25 mans, where the raid members are likely to be experienced in the mechanics of threat then those two points in improved threat could be better spent but for now - I’m not dropping it.
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May 8th, 2008 at 10:11 am
Why not create a macro that is like “/rw Begin DPS now”. So after you SS you just hit the macro and continue your aggro chain. Or do you think that would be too intrusive. 5 mans it works well for me. I’m also usually party leader. I’m still a newb tank as well only lvl 33, but I thought I would throw the idea out there.
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May 8th, 2008 at 12:52 pm
The new rage in 5mans in my server are pally tanks. Multiple target taunt, consecrate, block to increase threat(holy shield i think).
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May 8th, 2008 at 7:27 pm
That’s not just your server.
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