Improved Defensive Stance… worth it?
I’ll admit, at one point in time, I thought this was a must have talent. Partly this was because of the content I was doing, partly this was because of my level of gear at the time, but I was wrong. In fact, I was wrong about this talent in a lot of ways. So I’m going to spell it out for you so that you don’t have to be misguided too.
How I thought it worked
Reduces all spell damage by 6% in defensive stance.
Now if that were ADDED to the 10% we regularly get from defensive stance then we should be getting 16% reduced damage from spells… right? Wrong.
10,000 damage incoming * 0.84 = 8400 damage taken ~ That is not correct.
How it ACTUALLY works
Reduces all spell damage by 5.4% in defensive stance.
Uh… come again?
Yup, the reason is that the way the damage is actually calculated is multiplicative.
10,000 damage incoming * 0.9 (10% Reduction from Defensive Stance that we always get) * 0.94 (”6%” Reduction from Improved Defensive Stance) = 8 460 damage taken ~ This is correct. 
Can you get to the Point?
Yes, yes… soon enough. It’s important that you understand that Improved Defensive Stance is not quite as good as it reads. In reality, this doesn’t change much, but it’s still good to know when you look at your combat log and you notice that it’s not performing quite as good as you expected, this is why.
So, when is Improved Defensive Stance worth it?
To determine whether it’s worth it simply answer these two questions:
- Are you under-geared or new to the boss(es) you are doing?
- Does the boss(es) do magic damage?
If you can answer yes to both of those questions then it is worth it. If you can’t then it is not.
Examples
Karazhan: Worth it.
Gruul’s Lair: Not worth it.
Serpentshrine Cavern: Worth it.
October 10th, 2007 at 1:49 pm
So you spent 5 minutes of my time telling me that a talent that reduces magic damage is not worth it against physical damage dealing bosses, and worth it for magic damage dealing bosses.
And on a 100% related note, Transformers is amazing.
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October 10th, 2007 at 2:00 pm
Sometimes people don’t think about the obvious unless you point it out. For instance, what race should my warrior be? Some would say that’s an easy question to answer…
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October 10th, 2007 at 2:35 pm
I did Solarian AR tanking with and without it and I have to say it isn’t all that great for the few fights it’s even designed for.
C- talent.
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October 10th, 2007 at 2:39 pm
Food for thought:
To get the same 5.4% reduction to physical damage you’d have to add more than 3000 armor.
Would you put points in a skill if it were 1 talent point per 1000 armor?
That’s the difference it makes on fights it’s intended for.
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October 10th, 2007 at 2:48 pm
1. Touch
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October 10th, 2007 at 6:53 pm
There are many talents I’d rather have than 3000 armor right now. I have the effective health I need, more won’t help very much, I only die when something goes wrong.
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October 11th, 2007 at 10:48 am
If you really need to resist the magic damage , there is gear that will do far more than the points. I tried it, didnt notice when it was gone, prob wont ever use it again.
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October 11th, 2007 at 1:03 pm
@Max: Yes, gear is going to do more than points, but this talent is for when you don’t have the necessary gear.
@Link: This is one of those talents that when something goes wrong, it increases your chances of living.
What you both are ignoring is that the talent is recommended for new content or for when you are under-geared. It’s for when every mitigation edge counts. The fact is a lot of the talents we take aren’t noticeably helpful and we can easily play the game without them, but that doesn’t mean that given the correct situation that one shouldn’t use them to improve the raid’s odds of success.
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October 13th, 2007 at 6:59 am
I’m not disagreeing with you. Alot of the encounters where this talent would be useful I had spent a fortune on the ultimate resist gear. I was one of the guys with 20k hp, full NR and crit immunity tanking Hydross in 250% phase the whole fight. So while I agree you can respec for certain fights once in a while, I still hate the fact that the talent is still pretty weak when you spend the gold to do that.
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October 13th, 2007 at 7:07 am
The only time I ever die now adays is where shield wall won’t even stop the wipe. So more of these talents is going to make a big difference. If I survive one more attack than I normally would, I’ll only be staying alive another 1-2 seconds.
How bad is it that if dwarves had 3/3 improved defensive stance as their racial, I’d still rather be Tauran.
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October 13th, 2007 at 7:08 am
Isn’t*
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October 13th, 2007 at 8:46 am
/agree after lvl 70 there is almost no (im pretty sure its none actually) fight where 1 5% resist would have saved my Raid from a wipe. Some of these bosses are able to do upwards of 15k dmg on an attack and their spellcast can be devestating.
Even if you resisted 5% of a 3000-5000dmg spell… that only comes out to like 150-300dmg you didnt take because of a talent. 1 moderate heal from my pally or priest is upwards of 4k. It would take 25+ resists using this talent before it actually saved the raid any mana. Even then it would only be the mana of 1 heal. Which in all reality is worthless because during a boss fight no one is reactive healing and im prob being overhealed by that savings anyway, making it null.
My arguement against the talent is what is stated above. It simply takes too much fight progression before the talent does anything for you that really impacts survivability of the raid or allows breathing room. Its like taking a gimp chromatic flask with less resistance.
With a glyphed resist helm you can sit at 120 in a school. Thats almost 30% reduction. Actually invest in a moderate set of resist gear you wind up with over 200 and 45% reduction. If you go all out and glyph your gear and get crafted or badged, when using raid buffs will easily hit the 75% cap.
Now we have changed the scale of the fight by a huge margin. that 3000-5000dmg cast is now only doing 750-1250, meaning we are resisting 2K+ on every cast. Thats a flash heal every time the boss uses said school.
Now things start adding up.
Proper Gear
2000*25=50k DMG reduction or 12 life saving heals saved on you that can go elsewhere. (for grins this is about 270% of the tanks health or 5 DPSers lives that you can bring back from almost dead to full)
Crap Talent
150*25=3750 DMG reduction or 1 or 2 flash heals saved that may or may not go elsewhere. (this is aprox 20% of tank health)
Even on non resistable encounters its not a life saver.
To me the talent sits there wasting space because the other options for countering the same thing are much , much , much more effective, and easier to get. Or the talent points are more useful in other places.
Yes Id rather be Tauran too. Esp after the wack to skill.
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October 13th, 2007 at 1:32 pm
It’s not a matter of if. The talent always reduces spell damage by 5.4%.
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October 13th, 2007 at 2:27 pm
Funny how one sentence just annihilated a giant wall of text.
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October 14th, 2007 at 9:38 am
It is a matter of “If”…
If you decide to use a horrible talent.
1. IS 5.4% magic resist really worth 3 points?
2. What are you willing to give up?
I did the math in a a few fights we had problems with. I was undergeared, and the bosses did magic damage. It would not help in my situations.
If you are tanking kara and beyond you are probably dying because something else went wrong.
The talent needs a buff before it is very viable to a smart Raid tank.
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October 14th, 2007 at 12:41 pm
But when you pack on that much spell resistance, you severely gimp yourself to sustaining physical damage. And even then, spell resistance is still a CHANCE to resist damage. Where this talent is 100% guarunteed every single time to reduce spell damage by 5.4%. You rarely see a boss that solely does magical damage where having a full spell resistance set would be desired.
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October 14th, 2007 at 9:29 pm
you dont have to gimp to get 5.4. you can get that from a buff. want some extra protection grab a flask. hell a greater pot of whatever protection will do more than the talent will in many cases.
All any of you are saying is its always on, not a chance to resist I never argue that. I ran the numbers with it always on for 25 casts against a hard hitting spell. In the end even moderate spell resist gear and buffs out perform it when you really need a resist.
The damage per hit reduced is so minimal for encounters where you are not reactive healing that its pointless. You should be getting overhealed by 2x that anyway. IF you arent you have many other things to worry about.
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October 14th, 2007 at 11:39 pm
So whats wrong with getting the talent and using a flask? Where are those three points going to go?
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October 15th, 2007 at 8:31 am
IMP HS, IMP Sunder, IMP TC, AM+Imp BR, FR, SW+LS
I would not give any of those up.
As stated, my deaths are not due to failing to resist 150-300 damage on a mob.
Its because there was a major mistake or mishap.
Prince ate all my SB charges and the healer was healing the melee DPS who didnt back out of shadow nova, or infernal drop, rather than the tank they were assigned. A 300 resist isnt going to save your ass from a 18k flury where you only got a HOT and no major heals. Or DPS getting tail swiped because they ran to the wrong spot.
OR…
It was a stupid pull
Someone, some how pulled early agro (trash or boss)
CC Failed
Or any of the other things wiping a Raid. IMO
I just dont see this talent as a better option, esp in Kara.
If they buffed the crap out of it and reduced the need for resist gear I woudl probably fall in love with it. because as stated to get a high level of resist you often sacrafice physical mitigation and damage output which directly impacts threat and a whole slew of other things.
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October 15th, 2007 at 9:58 am
Prince isn’t really a fight this talent is useful for. That being said if you like just sitting in the infernos like me… its nice
It’s great for Illhoof, Nightbane, Curator (depending on your role).
The talent really starts to shine in SSC/TK, but don’t overlook its usefulness on the last boss in Heroic Ramparts, the first boss in Heroic Mana-tombs as well as the first boss in Heroic Arcatraz.
If you overgear the instance… its not a good talent. It’s a mitigation talent. Use it when you need more mitigation.
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October 15th, 2007 at 11:36 am
Actually I think Max has convinced me to spend these 3 points elsewhere. Ive used this talent for a long time but now I question its usefulness next to other talents.
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October 15th, 2007 at 12:39 pm
Well the only trick I got left in my cap is:
11960 Armor = 50% physical reduction
14856 Armor = 55.4% physical reduction
Think of that in terms of Magic Damage and you have this talent.
Anyway nice debate Max
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October 15th, 2007 at 7:22 pm
Your 55.4% number works only for pure magic fights though. In Kara most of the damage your going to face is physical, not magical. Thus the talent suffers a -80% usage relevance hit because most of the time its doing nothing, or offering such a minor return that it doesn’t change the scale of the fight.
That 2896 armor is now only as useful as 580 armor, and only in a few fights. Less than a pally buff now.
Nice try but really… its a crap talent. Any way you slice it. Its less powerful than buffs and flasks, less powerful than just putting on a glyph, the only thing it has going for it is stacking and that its always on.
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October 15th, 2007 at 8:24 pm
It doesn’t make sense to average the armor based on relevance when it counts its fully effective. The fact is that its for when you are undergeared when you need the buffs, you need the flasks, you need the glyphs and yup you need this one too. Honestly, on fights like Hydross this is a god send. Sure its maybe lackluster in Kara, but very far from a crap talent. Situational, yes. Crap, no.
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October 16th, 2007 at 6:32 am
It’s hard enough to justify getting this talent for anything but specific bosses. Now it will be even more difficult to justify getting it in 2.3 when Improved Sunder is a must.
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October 16th, 2007 at 6:42 am
Thats where I’m thinking those 3 points are going.
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October 16th, 2007 at 5:36 pm
right now im 12 - 5 - 44….link is my tanking partner and he has imp demo shout (2 of 5)…..im not sure where i could take 3 points from anywhere to put into imp def. stance……i dont think its worth getting.
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November 3rd, 2007 at 8:55 am
This talent is for fights where tank receives spell damage but can’t afford to gimp his/her stats with resistance gear. Sure 200 resistance is better then this talent but you can’t really have your main tank on Kael in fire resistance gear =) Kael fight is also one in which tank, if he survives, is literally left with few hundred hit points so every little bit matters.
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January 2nd, 2008 at 11:15 am
To better survive melee damage, pretty much every raid tank build will have:
- 5 points in Deflection for 5% parry
- 3 points in Imp T-clap for the added 10% attack speed reduction
- 5 points in Anticipation for ~2.4% avoidance, .8% block
- 5 points in Toughness for ~1500 armor
- 3 points in Shield Mastery for ~150 block value
- 5 points in Vitality for 5% stamina (as a Tauren, ~600HP I guess?)
To better survive magic damage, pretty much every raid tank build will have:
- 5 points in Vitality for 5% stamina (as a Tauren, ~600HP I guess?)
In my opinion, talents are already weighted towards reducing melee damage enough. 3 points in Imp Defensive Stance for 6% (or even 5.4%) damage reduction is a respectable return for your points. Maybe it’s not ZOMGOP, but it’s far from dismissable. I think this talent gets a bad rap because it’s one of those talents you don’t consider until after you’ve already spent all but about 5 of your points. It becomes “Is this worth 3 of my last 5 points” rather than “is this worth 3 of my 61 points.”
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January 10th, 2008 at 7:49 am
It is 6% incoming spell dmg reduction what it gives, not 5.4%
Lets say someone does 1000 spelldmg. Normally (without the talent) in defensive stance you would get 900 dmg.
With the talent you get 846 dmg, so that is 54 less dmg.
54 is 6% of 900 (the damage you would get without the talent). So the talent gives you 6% less incoming spell damage.
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February 23rd, 2008 at 2:28 am
This talent is always worth it, really. It’s not the question about how good it is on it’s own, it’s about how good it is when you add everything up. 15.4% less spelldamage taken, along with your melee defensive skills, adds up to an impressive total.
“Even if you resisted 5% of a 3000-5000dmg spell
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March 8th, 2008 at 11:08 am
Mr. Sunstrider said PYRO BOOM
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April 28th, 2008 at 1:07 am
I recently joined a guild on the Shu’halo server, and I’m essentially starting from the bottom, and our Warrior class leader is a good player, and an even greater warrior, but I’m not sure he knows so much about tanking. He basically is telling me that Imp. Defensive Stance is a ‘must-have’ for any MT’ing Warrior, as it not only reduces magic damage taken, but also yellow damage? Is this completely false, or is it just me? I consider myself a very knowledgable tank, I’ve read most guides out there, and post/read TankSpot.com on a daily basis, but this just doesn’t seem reasonable. I was under the impression that bosses don’t do yellow damage, or barely do.
Also, our MT just plain doesn’t know how to spec. She takes 3/3 Imp Defensive Stance over 3/3 Shield Mastery, and instead only puts (1) point in Shield Mastery. Not to mention I sometimes double her TPS (I’ve pulled aggro off of her in most encounters). Too bad they’ll never let me MT a fight (Our gear is basically the same, where as she has T5 shoulders) because I’m not a guild veteran. *Sigh* OT’ing woes.
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June 23rd, 2008 at 5:32 am
That’s just utterly wrong. Spells and specials (yellow attacks) are not the same, and Imp. Defensive only reduces spell damage.
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