Comments on: The Quick Guide to Effective Health http://www.tankingtips.com/2007/10/18/the-quick-guide-to-effective-health/ A guide to tanking as a warrior in world of warcraft Mon, 08 Sep 2008 07:47:18 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.2 By: Joe128 http://www.tankingtips.com/2007/10/18/the-quick-guide-to-effective-health/#comment-2694 Joe128 Sat, 14 Jun 2008 03:09:17 +0000 http://www.tankingtips.com/2007/10/18/the-quick-guide-to-effective-health/#comment-2694 I play both a healer and a tank and have been through half of sunwell. There really should be a balance of both. If there's a choice between taking a couple of hundred more hp or taking more avoidance, I'm taking the avoidance. As a paladin, I can't say how many times where healers fall behind when I'm quite low on hp and the next string of attacks on me are dodges, parries, and misses. Over the course of a fight, I would rather see Boss hits you for 5k Boss misses you. You dodge bosses attack. Boss hits you for 5k than Boss hits you for 5k Boss hits you for 5k Boss hits you for 5k Boss hits you for 5k. Sure, healers can't heal you when you're dead, but healers can't heal when they're oom. I play both a healer and a tank and have been through half of sunwell.

There really should be a balance of both. If there’s a choice between taking a couple of hundred more hp or taking more avoidance, I’m taking the avoidance.

As a paladin, I can’t say how many times where healers fall behind when I’m quite low on hp and the next string of attacks on me are dodges, parries, and misses.

Over the course of a fight, I would rather see

Boss hits you for 5k
Boss misses you.
You dodge bosses attack.
Boss hits you for 5k

than

Boss hits you for 5k
Boss hits you for 5k
Boss hits you for 5k
Boss hits you for 5k.

Sure, healers can’t heal you when you’re dead, but healers can’t heal when they’re oom.

]]> By: Veneretio http://www.tankingtips.com/2007/10/18/the-quick-guide-to-effective-health/#comment-728 Veneretio Wed, 02 Jan 2008 21:01:15 +0000 http://www.tankingtips.com/2007/10/18/the-quick-guide-to-effective-health/#comment-728 @Kavel: Actually, Stacking armor isn't impossible really. A perfect example is using the Season 2 Gladiator shield over Gruul's. Many people don't do this and it makes a big difference especially if you compare it to Nightbane's shield. The same goes for using Panzer vs Armorsmith chest or S3 Gladiator Chest. High Armor pieces are out there, you just have to know where to look and as you've said already the ring, cloak, and couple enchants are there too. Utilizing those slots effectively is the difference of as much as 1000 armor. @Kavel:
Actually, Stacking armor isn’t impossible really. A perfect example is using the Season 2 Gladiator shield over Gruul’s. Many people don’t do this and it makes a big difference especially if you compare it to Nightbane’s shield. The same goes for using Panzer vs Armorsmith chest or S3 Gladiator Chest.

High Armor pieces are out there, you just have to know where to look and as you’ve said already the ring, cloak, and couple enchants are there too. Utilizing those slots effectively is the difference of as much as 1000 armor.

]]> By: Kavel http://www.tankingtips.com/2007/10/18/the-quick-guide-to-effective-health/#comment-727 Kavel Wed, 02 Jan 2008 18:21:07 +0000 http://www.tankingtips.com/2007/10/18/the-quick-guide-to-effective-health/#comment-727 I think Shield Block Value is kinda intended as the poor man's armor. "Stacking" armor is pretty much impossible, as the only pieces you've really got options with are rings, cloak and an enchant or two. However, once you start getting geared past Kara, and you start to see those blocks preventing 500-600-700 damage, you start to realize just how much armor equivalency that works out to. Especially against bosses, where we can run about a 99% block rate, that's almost like having a thousands more armor. I think Shield Block Value is kinda intended as the poor man’s armor. “Stacking” armor is pretty much impossible, as the only pieces you’ve really got options with are rings, cloak and an enchant or two.

However, once you start getting geared past Kara, and you start to see those blocks preventing 500-600-700 damage, you start to realize just how much armor equivalency that works out to. Especially against bosses, where we can run about a 99% block rate, that’s almost like having a thousands more armor.

]]> By: admin http://www.tankingtips.com/2007/10/18/the-quick-guide-to-effective-health/#comment-563 admin Tue, 27 Nov 2007 19:17:12 +0000 http://www.tankingtips.com/2007/10/18/the-quick-guide-to-effective-health/#comment-563 @zodran: I think the issue you are having here with grasping the concept is that Karazhan isn't really intended for Effective Health gearing. Prince IS an avoidance fight due to his attack speed. You are going to find when encountering High King, Gruul, Magtheridon, and many, many bosses beyond that focusing on Armor and Stamina is much, much more advantageous. Here's what it comes down to, these bosses are going to hit an avoidance tank for 6k, they'll hit an EH for 5k. 3 hits in a row with an avoidance setup = death. 3 hits in a row with an EH setup = easily alive. You may not think these will come that fast, but the reality is your attacks will get parried and those multiple hits can rain down on you in seconds. My advice: even if you don't use it, start collecting an Armor/Stamina set, you'll thank me when you kill Gruul :) @zodran: I think the issue you are having here with grasping the concept is that Karazhan isn’t really intended for Effective Health gearing. Prince IS an avoidance fight due to his attack speed. You are going to find when encountering High King, Gruul, Magtheridon, and many, many bosses beyond that focusing on Armor and Stamina is much, much more advantageous.

Here’s what it comes down to, these bosses are going to hit an avoidance tank for 6k, they’ll hit an EH for 5k. 3 hits in a row with an avoidance setup = death. 3 hits in a row with an EH setup = easily alive. You may not think these will come that fast, but the reality is your attacks will get parried and those multiple hits can rain down on you in seconds.

My advice: even if you don’t use it, start collecting an Armor/Stamina set, you’ll thank me when you kill Gruul :)

]]> By: zodran http://www.tankingtips.com/2007/10/18/the-quick-guide-to-effective-health/#comment-562 zodran Tue, 27 Nov 2007 17:34:18 +0000 http://www.tankingtips.com/2007/10/18/the-quick-guide-to-effective-health/#comment-562 Bonus I have to partially agree with you on that, while most tanks I know are mitigation tanks...I often have less block/ and about 1k less armor and HP. my armor is currently 14800k+ and HP unbuffed is sitting at 13.6k+ I'm the MT for my guild which is running 2 karazhan groups and gonna try gruuls this week, zodran on illidan look me up. anyway, I'm clearly an avoidance tank even though I can match most other tanks doing karazhan despite them having T4 gear and kings defender where I use the sun eater. I really like the way avoidance works...I dont like being consider a big sponge, dodging and parrying and superior tanking skills is what sets warriors apart from other tanks. I'm actually happy with how little damage I take, even on prince its never a struggle if luck from infernals goes our way..2 healers can heal me just fine on prince and any other fight in karazhan...while I dont think my mitigation is low compared to other tanks at my lvl..actually it tends to be higher. I do agree that threat generation and rage starvation sometimes are an issue...Its become noticeable and other tanks tell me I have high avoidance which has diminishingi returns, how do I play to combat this? Broch's badge necklace gives + 20-23 expertise and hit rating... re-specting to anger management/+5 pct crit/Improved heroic strike. 11/6/43, also getting the kings defender + to hit rating....that way I wont have aggro generation issues also stacking more block which I can get up to 26 pct by switching trinkets...if anything it will be just as good as anyone elses...I'll also take less damage....I dont doubt that at some point I will start stacking armor and HP more then I do now, but I like being different then the standard tank model..but having a reason why and proving that its just as effective. anyone that thinks avoidance is luck, Eh I tend to believe its stats...just like its likely you will be hit, the number inevitably lead to you dodging...it cannot be denied or erased from the table as a non factor. In conclusion, my only issue now is rage starvation and some threat generation, other then that I can handle anything in karazhan as far as incoming damage. Bonus I have to partially agree with you on that, while most tanks I know are mitigation tanks…I often have less block/ and about 1k less armor and HP.

my armor is currently 14800k+ and HP unbuffed is sitting at 13.6k+ I’m the MT for my guild which is running 2 karazhan groups and gonna try gruuls this week, zodran on illidan look me up.

anyway, I’m clearly an avoidance tank even though I can match most other tanks doing karazhan despite them having T4 gear and kings defender where I use the sun eater. I really like the way avoidance works…I dont like being consider a big sponge, dodging and parrying and superior tanking skills is what sets warriors apart from other tanks. I’m actually happy with how little damage I take, even on prince its never a struggle if luck from infernals goes our way..2 healers can heal me just fine on prince and any other fight in karazhan…while I dont think my mitigation is low compared to other tanks at my lvl..actually it tends to be higher. I do agree that threat generation and rage starvation sometimes are an issue…Its become noticeable and other tanks tell me I have high avoidance which has diminishingi returns, how do I play to combat this? Broch’s badge necklace gives + 20-23 expertise and hit rating… re-specting to anger management/+5 pct crit/Improved heroic strike. 11/6/43, also getting the kings defender + to hit rating….that way I wont have aggro generation issues also stacking more block which I can get up to 26 pct by switching trinkets…if anything it will be just as good as anyone elses…I’ll also take less damage….I dont doubt that at some point I will start stacking armor and HP more then I do now, but I like being different then the standard tank model..but having a reason why and proving that its just as effective.

anyone that thinks avoidance is luck, Eh I tend to believe its stats…just like its likely you will be hit, the number inevitably lead to you dodging…it cannot be denied or erased from the table as a non factor.

In conclusion, my only issue now is rage starvation and some threat generation, other then that I can handle anything in karazhan as far as incoming damage.

]]> By: Bonus http://www.tankingtips.com/2007/10/18/the-quick-guide-to-effective-health/#comment-496 Bonus Thu, 08 Nov 2007 08:21:11 +0000 http://www.tankingtips.com/2007/10/18/the-quick-guide-to-effective-health/#comment-496 I've focused around being an avoidance tank since I began. Just about every other tank in my guild is stacking stamina, I'm stacking, dodge/parry, agi, and strength. Couple of pointts #1: Hunter always misdirect me so holding aggro isn't exactly hard and I spec for anger management and get my 5% chance to hit to compensate for not getting rage from being hit. Rage generation is not an issue for an avoidance tank #2: When we use a big health tank (feral druid) to MT fights healers do run oom and have to constantly spam heals on him. When I am tanking they have healing rotations so that two people are always casting heals on me while the third conserves mana by not casting at all... hasn't been a problem for the encounter we've been attempting. #3: Yes an avoidance tank isn't going to win over every possibly encounter, there'll obviously be certain aspects of stamina tanks that'll come on top. Good guilds stack both. However some fights avoidance tanks have obvious advantages. On Al'ar for example all the big health tanks would get raped by melted armor when taunt would resist. However because I'm dodging and parrying roughly 60% of all attacks (with agi totem) I'm able to survive the entire melt armor debuff. #4: Avoidance is not entirely luck based. I have the scarab of displacement and the moroes pocket watch, popping either of these ensures even higher dodge/parry. When you have a 70% chance to dodge/parry you go beyond calling it merely "luck" and call it "inevitable." Luck is something you attribute to rare occurances or rolling a dice, not to a statistical inevitability. Its lucky I dodged? No its stats. #5: Healers will always prefer to heal tanks with a lot of stamina because they don't start healing until the tank take dmg. If a MT has hots on him and earthshield on top with only 17K health he can be crushed twice in a row and still survive. An argument against avoidance tanking cannot be that your healers suck. I’ve focused around being an avoidance tank since I began. Just about every other tank in my guild is stacking stamina, I’m stacking, dodge/parry, agi, and strength. Couple of pointts
#1: Hunter always misdirect me so holding aggro isn’t exactly hard and I spec for anger management and get my 5% chance to hit to compensate for not getting rage from being hit. Rage generation is not an issue for an avoidance tank
#2: When we use a big health tank (feral druid) to MT fights healers do run oom and have to constantly spam heals on him. When I am tanking they have healing rotations so that two people are always casting heals on me while the third conserves mana by not casting at all… hasn’t been a problem for the encounter we’ve been attempting.
#3: Yes an avoidance tank isn’t going to win over every possibly encounter, there’ll obviously be certain aspects of stamina tanks that’ll come on top. Good guilds stack both. However some fights avoidance tanks have obvious advantages. On Al’ar for example all the big health tanks would get raped by melted armor when taunt would resist. However because I’m dodging and parrying roughly 60% of all attacks (with agi totem) I’m able to survive the entire melt armor debuff.
#4: Avoidance is not entirely luck based. I have the scarab of displacement and the moroes pocket watch, popping either of these ensures even higher dodge/parry. When you have a 70% chance to dodge/parry you go beyond calling it merely “luck” and call it “inevitable.” Luck is something you attribute to rare occurances or rolling a dice, not to a statistical inevitability. Its lucky I dodged? No its stats.
#5: Healers will always prefer to heal tanks with a lot of stamina because they don’t start healing until the tank take dmg. If a MT has hots on him and earthshield on top with only 17K health he can be crushed twice in a row and still survive. An argument against avoidance tanking cannot be that your healers suck.

]]> By: Siouxzen http://www.tankingtips.com/2007/10/18/the-quick-guide-to-effective-health/#comment-470 Siouxzen Mon, 29 Oct 2007 09:25:52 +0000 http://www.tankingtips.com/2007/10/18/the-quick-guide-to-effective-health/#comment-470 Stacking stamina may cost your healers more mana, but any well geared priest will have more than 200 regen, unbuffed, while casting. If mana is still an issue during an encounter, they should be ready to take consumables early on and possibly again when the cooldown is up. Stacking avoidance, your healer has to be on their game casting and canceling if the damage isn't taken. If a healer is stacked on plus healing, the large heals incoming should hit right after every damage spike. Either way you go on this, I think it comes down to knowing your healers when deciding. Stacking stamina may cost your healers more mana, but any well geared priest will have more than 200 regen, unbuffed, while casting. If mana is still an issue during an encounter, they should be ready to take consumables early on and possibly again when the cooldown is up.

Stacking avoidance, your healer has to be on their game casting and canceling if the damage isn’t taken. If a healer is stacked on plus healing, the large heals incoming should hit right after every damage spike.

Either way you go on this, I think it comes down to knowing your healers when deciding.

]]> By: Kavtor http://www.tankingtips.com/2007/10/18/the-quick-guide-to-effective-health/#comment-461 Kavtor Wed, 24 Oct 2007 21:57:27 +0000 http://www.tankingtips.com/2007/10/18/the-quick-guide-to-effective-health/#comment-461 It really depends on the encounter. On something like Magtheridon or Lurker, you've got a bunch of healers looking only at you. High armour / Stam is the way to go. They shouldn't go OOM and you aren't going to get huge damage spikes. Plus, lots of rage is always good. On the other hand, when you're looking at Morogrim or Tidelvass, you may only have a couple healers on you. You can surely get unlucky on spike damage, but in general, you'll break up the incoming damage more often to give your healer a chance to rest, or catch up. And you decrease the chance of taking large damage spikes that only a few healers may not be able to deal with quickly. I've always geared primarily towards armour and stam. But There are certainly times where excessive avoidance is far more helpful. It really depends on the encounter.
On something like Magtheridon or Lurker, you’ve got a bunch of healers looking only at you. High armour / Stam is the way to go. They shouldn’t go OOM and you aren’t going to get huge damage spikes. Plus, lots of rage is always good.

On the other hand, when you’re looking at Morogrim or Tidelvass, you may only have a couple healers on you. You can surely get unlucky on spike damage, but in general, you’ll break up the incoming damage more often to give your healer a chance to rest, or catch up. And you decrease the chance of taking large damage spikes that only a few healers may not be able to deal with quickly.

I’ve always geared primarily towards armour and stam. But There are certainly times where excessive avoidance is far more helpful.

]]> By: Boddugh http://www.tankingtips.com/2007/10/18/the-quick-guide-to-effective-health/#comment-448 Boddugh Mon, 22 Oct 2007 19:33:03 +0000 http://www.tankingtips.com/2007/10/18/the-quick-guide-to-effective-health/#comment-448 Good post Max. Our healers never seem to have mana issues but we supplement our raid with Shadow Priests whose impact cannot be understated. They seem to prefer the steady reliable healing patterns that effective health lends itself to. Some have that itch to patch when the tank isn't taking damage and in doing so might miss a string of hits otherwise. We have a tank who is heavier on avoidance and it takes more of an effort sometimes to keep him up. And he does get rage starved, or so he says. Effective health is my insurance policy that I have a longer chance to stay alive. One of the things I love about this game is the reliance on other people in order to be successful. I have to have faith in my healers, and going effective health gives me that peace of mind. Let us know how the avoidance tanking gear works for you. Good post Max.

Our healers never seem to have mana issues but we supplement our raid with Shadow Priests whose impact cannot be understated.

They seem to prefer the steady reliable healing patterns that effective health lends itself to. Some have that itch to patch when the tank isn’t taking damage and in doing so might miss a string of hits otherwise. We have a tank who is heavier on avoidance and it takes more of an effort sometimes to keep him up. And he does get rage starved, or so he says.

Effective health is my insurance policy that I have a longer chance to stay alive. One of the things I love about this game is the reliance on other people in order to be successful. I have to have faith in my healers, and going effective health gives me that peace of mind.

Let us know how the avoidance tanking gear works for you.

]]> By: Max http://www.tankingtips.com/2007/10/18/the-quick-guide-to-effective-health/#comment-444 Max Sat, 20 Oct 2007 17:42:17 +0000 http://www.tankingtips.com/2007/10/18/the-quick-guide-to-effective-health/#comment-444 I tried both. Came to the conclusion that all the following are true. Point 1: Stacking stam gives more TPS esp in the start of an encounter. Stacking avoidance offers noticably less TPS in the start of encounters and overall. When you stack avoidance you can not neglect threat gen enhancements. Point 2: Stacking stam cost the healers more mana. Stacking avoidance saves healer mana. Loosing a healer, even 2 may not wipe u on an avoidance tank. Point 3: Stamina gives you headroom for accidents that avoidance wont. Avoidance makes accidents less likely but they are never impossible with either model. Point 4: Some fights favor stamina others avoidance, others resistance. Point 5: Stamina is reliable, predictable and easier for the raid to "groove to", if you have the mana. The dynamics of the game force you to make choices all of the time. This is probably why I have so much respect for the designers. Each one of the choices forces you to determine what your Raid needs most. Picking 1 way over the other also means you have to setup differently to accomodate for the weakness of that style. Example: Add things that improve hit rate and damage rate rather than more stamina. The best thing about this game is that you can try many ways to combat encounters. You get to make a style all your own. Dont fall into boring traps of becoming a stat copy of anyone. People tend to say .. who is that tank taking down Illidan? I want to copy his build and gear. Their build and gear are reliant on how they play the class and an entire raid of other specs and gear makeups backing them up. We tend to get into battles of numbers here but the real way to test the theories are to do them! If it feels like its working and you are downing the bosses easier , faster or safer, then do it that way. Or dont! Its all about the fun :) Oh and I now choose avoidance. I secretly changed out my gear in a few runs and raids . My healers picked up on the difference quickly. We shall see how it goes. I tried both. Came to the conclusion that all the following are true.

Point 1: Stacking stam gives more TPS esp in the start of an encounter. Stacking avoidance offers noticably less TPS in the start of encounters and overall. When you stack avoidance you can not neglect threat gen enhancements.

Point 2: Stacking stam cost the healers more mana. Stacking avoidance saves healer mana. Loosing a healer, even 2 may not wipe u on an avoidance tank.

Point 3: Stamina gives you headroom for accidents that avoidance wont. Avoidance makes accidents less likely but they are never impossible with either model.

Point 4: Some fights favor stamina others avoidance, others resistance.

Point 5: Stamina is reliable, predictable and easier for the raid to “groove to”, if you have the mana.

The dynamics of the game force you to make choices all of the time. This is probably why I have so much respect for the designers. Each one of the choices forces you to determine what your Raid needs most. Picking 1 way over the other also means you have to setup differently to accomodate for the weakness of that style. Example: Add things that improve hit rate and damage rate rather than more stamina.

The best thing about this game is that you can try many ways to combat encounters. You get to make a style all your own. Dont fall into boring traps of becoming a stat copy of anyone. People tend to say .. who is that tank taking down Illidan? I want to copy his build and gear. Their build and gear are reliant on how they play the class and an entire raid of other specs and gear makeups backing them up.

We tend to get into battles of numbers here but the real way to test the theories are to do them! If it feels like its working and you are downing the bosses easier , faster or safer, then do it that way. Or dont! Its all about the fun :)

Oh and I now choose avoidance. I secretly changed out my gear in a few runs and raids . My healers picked up on the difference quickly. We shall see how it goes.

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