Bonefist Gauntlets vs Iron Gauntlets of the Maiden
For reference:
Bonefist Gauntlets vs Iron Gauntlets of the Maiden
Bonefist Gauntlets
+99 Armor
+12 Stamina
+30 Parry Rating
+21 Hit Rating
Iron Gauntlets of the Maiden
+16 Defense Rating
+17 Block Rating
+38 Block Value
So Effective Health wise we know immediately that the Bonefist Gauntlets are the better because they offer more Armor and Stamina. Block Rating is a meaningless stat and 21 Hit Rating is going to offer us a far greater threat increase than 38 Block Value. (210 to 135.66 based on Equivalent Threat Points)
But… But… My Defense Rating is going down!
And that’s what this whole “tough” decision is about, 30 Parry Rating vs 16 Defense Rating.
30 Parry Rating = 1.27% Avoidance
16 Defense Rating = 0.81% Avoidance
Bonefist Gauntlets destroy Maiden’s in every category as long as you can maintain 490 Defense. (or a combination of resilience and defense that’s the equivalent of 490 defense) Since this isn’t very difficult Bonefist Gauntlets gets the nod as the far, far superior choice.
January 27th, 2008 at 1:32 pm
How does 21 hit rating compare to 38 block value in terms of threat generation?
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January 27th, 2008 at 1:35 pm
The 21 hit rating is much more threat than 38 block value and is more useful in every situation except for tanking shattered halls or something, I don’t know. Basically, in every single boss fight 21 hit rating is more threat than 38 SBV hands down.
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January 27th, 2008 at 1:43 pm
38 BV adds to shield slam and hence, is a threat generating stat. Of course, this means that BV only applies to SS while Hit Rating applies to almost all other abilities + autoattack.
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January 27th, 2008 at 2:08 pm
@Seth: Read the post properly.
Good to see alot of posts, I recently have decided to get this upgrade just need the badges. I’d say it’s worth going for the socket bonus on this one, taking a Defenders Tanizite (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30566).
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January 27th, 2008 at 8:33 pm
How would you compare the Bonefist to the Tier 4 tanking gloves?
The Tier 4 are:
944 Armor
+17 Strength
+20 Agility
+38 Stamina
Equip: Increases defense rating by 23 (9.72 @ L70).
Equip: Increases your parry rating by 29 (1.23% @ L70).
Compared to the Bonefist:
1005 Armor
+51 Stamina
+24 Stamina (Assuming 2 stars of elune)
Equip: Increases your parry rating by 30 (1.27% @ L70).
Equip: Improves hit rating by 21 (1.33% @ L70).
So comparing the two, the Tier 4 have:
+17 Strength
+20 Agility
-37 Stamine
+23 Defense
-1 Parry Rating
-61 Armor
-21 Hit Rating
That’s also not counting the agility effect on armor, dodge, and crit.
I’ve seen a lot of people also stating that Bonefist are better than Tier 4…but is that looking purely at the EH levels of the two, instead of the added avoidance and attack power of the tier-4?
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January 27th, 2008 at 9:43 pm
@AttorneyLaw:
Bonefist has less avoidance than the T4, but it has far more Stamina and Threat. T4 I rank slightly below Maiden’s as well since they both offer similar threat, but Maiden’s simply has way more Stamina. (something that you are lacking at that gear level)
Basically, Bonefist > Maiden’s > T4
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January 28th, 2008 at 1:04 am
My real question is Bonefist vs T5 gloves seeing I’d easily pick them over T4 or anything else that drops in Karazhan.
The main reason for having T5 gloves would be to get the +100 BV when using sheild-block (potentially more threat and mitigation) as well as the added defence of T5 gloves can be an item-savor when choosing other items.
Any insights to this?
Bonefist certainly has EH and threat going for them where T5 has avoidance and mitigation.
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January 28th, 2008 at 1:49 am
To add to my previous comments about Bonefist vs T5 gauntlets the difference is looking at the T5:
+ 37 armor
+ 16 strength
+ 16 agi
+ 25 defence rating
+ 23 block rating
+ 44 block value
- 29 stamina
- 21 hitrating
* Possible T5 set-bonus (100 BV each time you use shield block)
So in my views it’s really a question of EH & aggro vs avoidance and I reckon item vs item the Bonefist gauntlets win as long as you don’t need the 25 defence rating they provide. The T5-set bonus is quite nice but isn’t very “controllable” for aggrogeneration on for instance a bossfight.
In my case I will probably be using the T5 gloves in-front of the Bonefirst as soon as the shield and axe drop from Zul’Aman seeing these two items (with the Bonefirst Gauntlets) do a severe dent in my defence compare to using the Aldori Legacy Defender and Malet of Tides.
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January 28th, 2008 at 6:52 am
I think I’ve known this since I first saw the new 2.3 badge rewards. Maiden’s gloves and the T4 gloves don’t hold a candle to these in terms of EH and threat generation. Pretty much a no brainer here. Only reason I don’t have them yet is because other rewards have taken presedence for me (broch, cape, legs, wrists). These are next on the list though
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January 28th, 2008 at 8:10 am
@Erik:
I debated about the T5 vs Bonefist myself. The T5 actually will increase your threat more than Bonefist since 16 Strength, 16 Agility and 44 Block Value is greater than 21 Hit Rating alone. Add to that that T5 offers a ton more avoidance coupled with a 2 piece set bonus that’s a very nice mitigation stat and you’ve got a pretty compelling argument towards T5. The big difference too is at this point your Stamina is probably very high and it’s okay to sacrifice a bit in favour of threat/avoidance.
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January 28th, 2008 at 8:13 am
From an EH standpoint, yes, it is a no-brainer that the Bonefist gloves surpass Maiden’s. But with respect to hit vs block value, the metric was never really clear.
It wasn’t until I re-read the following that it started to make sense:
“The shorter the fight the better block value is, the longer the fight the better hit, crit, and AP are.”
http://www.tankingtips.com/2007/07/24/the-threat-formula/
Now, as our guild pushes into the 25-mans, is it valid to roughly say:
Expertise > Hit > Block Value ?
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January 28th, 2008 at 8:14 am
How about T5?
The Bonefist Vs Destroyer, I find to be very much in Bonefist’s favour, with almost twice the stamina, greater avoidance and arguably better threat.
But what about Maiden Vs Destroyer?
If my maths are correct, upgrading to T5 from Maiden would give +136 armour and +0,46% avoidance but -19 stamina (assuming 2*SSE). Is the trade worth it, or are the gloves from maiden so good that not only should you not go for T4, but you shouldn’t really go for T5 either?
Right now I’m wondering if I should just try to get the gloves from Kael’Thas that we have just started to get on farm and keep my gloves from Maiden while I wait.
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January 28th, 2008 at 8:14 am
I didn’t bother purchasing these largely because I can hit cap myself if necessary. I also have T5 and while its not readily apparent, the T5 gauntlets out threat everything except the Gauntlets of Enforcement. One of the side benefits of deriving additional threat from Block Value, Strength and Agility is a higher threat potential. Hit Rating (or Expertise) doesn’t increase your potential but rather it allows you to meet it. In terms of average TPS they may work at the same but its important to remember after you’ve capped your Expertise and Hit Chance.
@Vene
Regarding your ETP post. Does your factors include talent buffs (ex Shield Mastery)?
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January 28th, 2008 at 9:12 am
@Ivanstone:
Nope it doesn’t factor in Shield Mastery and to be honest I’m revisiting that page soon once I can get a bit more research under my belt.
@bondetamp:
Bonefist does not have greater avoidance than T5.
Bonefist
30 parry = 1.27% avoidance
T5
16 Agility = 0.53% avoidance
25 Defense = 1.27% avoidance
And don’t forget too that the armor on T5 (don’t forget 1 agility = 2 armor too) closes the gap a little bit too regarding the Stamina loss.
@Cimm:
Yup, you can basically say Expertise > Hit > Block Value regarding threat, but the mitigation element of Block Value is still worth taking into consideration.
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January 28th, 2008 at 10:00 am
I’ve been trying hard to figure a way to take the Bonefist, but I’m pretty stuck right now. I use the Bulwark of the Ancient Kings as my chest and it’s lack of defense or resilience is starting to become a liability.
Basically, I can grind out the S3 chest and essentially get a sidegrade, or I can drop one of my current EH trinkets and start using one of the high-defense trinkets as a replacement. Neither option is terribly appealing to me right now.
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January 28th, 2008 at 10:25 am
One other thought: I happen to have both T4 and Maiden gloves and I provisioned them this way:
Maiden gloves with 2% threat for progression
T4 with 15 avi for farming/more avoidance oriented fights.
Clearly the badge gloves are superior, but I, as others have stated feel that other badge gear is more of a priority…like legs, neck, bracers, waist.
thoughts?
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January 28th, 2008 at 11:15 am
What would you suggest for enchants on these different gloves? I have t5 and will shortly have bonefists. I generally like to have multiple sets of gear for different bosses, trash, etc.
I was thinking of putting a 10 stam kit on bonefists to really put them head and shoulders above t5 for EH. Then I was thinking 2% threat on T5 for trash and quick agro bosses.
I also have the 2 piece t5 from legs/shoulders so that doesn’t factor into this arguement.
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January 29th, 2008 at 12:33 pm
Well said Veneretio! Got these sweet gloves some time ago, and they sure are nice. The SBV from Maiden’s was nice, but 21 is just win.
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January 30th, 2008 at 2:20 am
It’s worth mentioning that whilst vs hard hitting bosses the Bonefist are clearly superior, those who -have- the maiden gauntlets will want to keep them around for trash and five-mans.
The one “problen” I see is that block value here is being used entirely as a threat stat, and people are neglecting its damage mitigation. Whilst of course 38 block value (49 with shield mastery) isn’t going to take an appreciable amount of damage off something hitting for 3000-4000 or above, but once you start facing lower damage opponents (ie, everything in a heroic, 10man trash etc) then the BV starts coming into its own.
In fact, when I’m facing stuff that hits for under 2000, I stack block value and block -rating- (if tanking 2+mobs) as the return on investment for item budget seems far swayed in favor of block as a mitigation stat.
If something is hitting you for 800, and you have 700 block value, the maiden gloves on top of that will be equivalent to 50% damage reduction assuming high block chance/shieldblock use. And when your block value is greater than the hits you’re taking, a mere 7.9 block rating for 1% suddenly starts being as powerful as 18.9 dodge rating.
Possibly something worth doing an article on? The breakpoints between when it’s best to wear Block gear, and when it’s best to wear stamina/avoidance/hit gear etc. I have bonefists and use them against all raid bosses, but I find myself wearing the Maiden gloves more often.
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January 30th, 2008 at 3:07 pm
If something is only hitting you for 800 then… uh… who cares? You would probably be better off dual wielding for trash like that.
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January 31st, 2008 at 2:12 am
I found myself juggling with Defence alot after the Badges rewards became available, using talents to keep it up on 490.
And my main concern is if I should choose t5 now that legs and gauntlets are available for me, main issue is the lower stamina on t5 in confront of the badge rewards.
Especially that my guild is moving past ssc and the eye, and our tank goals is to have 23000 buffed healt.
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January 31st, 2008 at 7:44 am
I don’t think I have been anywhere near 490 since pre-karazhan, what kind of gear are you wearing that being uncrittable is a concern?
If you are trying to get to 23k at the end of tier 5 then you are seriously gimping your other stats (like defense evidently). 23k is overkill. There is nothing in tier 6 that requires anything near that much hp, especially not the early bosses.
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February 1st, 2008 at 3:43 am
Well for AoE tanking in places like MH and SSC mobs hitting for under 1000 per hit does stack up. Say you have 4 or so mobs on you your BV in the end is a very good and important stat to have. Add X BV and you reduce that by 4X HP per blocked hit and you exponentially have much more potential threat.
The warriors that have focused on BV / BR in my guild vs my self who haven’t seen the later as a huge importance, well they excel on the AoE packs. Not saying I can’t do it, but the BV / BR tanks take noticeable less damage.
@ Lorso
I wouldn’t take the T5 leggings over the badge leggings if you aren’t desperate in need of the defence. I would for instance choose the Scarab of Displacements from Hyrdoss instead, loosing the Gnomeregan Auto-Blocker 600, to compensate for defence in front of this. Necklas from Fathom Lord is also an option, but I personally disslike loosing the Brooch of Defness there with all it’s stamina, hit and expertise.
In terms of choosing T5 pieces the shoulders are a given upgrade. As for the second piece
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February 1st, 2008 at 7:56 am
One thing I’ve noticed about Hyjal trash is that excessive BV stacking is less effective then I thought it would be at least for a warrior. Completely blocking an attack sounds like a good idea until you realize your only rage gains are coming from Shield Spec. Its pretty much a must for Paladins on the other hand. Since we have 2 prot pallies and one is always there to bear the brunt of the waves, the other tanks do utility tasks ie peeling aboms off the pallies, tanking casters and so forth.
In general, I prefer Destroyer over almost any Badge or ZA piece. Stamina is important and worth stacking but its not the only thing. One belief about Blizzard’s itemization scheme is that an item becomes a little more stat rich by splitting the stats up amongst multiple stats rather then excessively stacking a few stats. This is best observed by comparing the Destroyer Chest vs Chest of the Warlord. Virtually identical in design and has the same item level, yet Destroyer has 25 strength that almost looks free. I suspect this occurs because its a 6 stat item compared to Warlord’s 4 stats. The only Destroyer piece that suffers in this regard is the gloves, largely because the lack of sockets reduce this stat budgeting effect but its still the 2nd best threat generator in the game.
Oh and another thing, the set bonuses are incredible. Everytime I see Battle Rush proc it puts me in my happy place.
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