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75 Responses to “Podcast #4: It’s time for 20 Questions”
I’ll have to listen to it tomorrow.
But I will say, I don’t have a problem with sunwell radiance, but could I have those 300+ item points back? Block value, strength, hit rating… something?
Yes, the Tankatronic goggles are very, very good. However, for those who chose Blacksmithing, don’t you think it’s worth hanging on to in hopes that Blacksmithing makes a comeback in WotLK? Unless you really think the Goggles are going to represent some great breakthrough for you
I took up Blacksmithing knowing Engineering had the goggles, because I’m confident BS is going to make a comeback in the expansion - a big comeback. I bet there’s going to be many people who take up Engineering in the coming months who will come to regret it as WotLK BS patterns start to roll out.
in the podcast, you said it would be a good idea to put shield block in a macro with your threat abilities. but how would you see when your SB cooldown was up? what if your SB cooldown expired just AFTER you hit one of your global cooldown attacks? wouldn’t you go almost an entire global cooldown with no shield block?
marklar: This is true, but it all depends on your playstyle. If you’re one of those that mash buttons, then because shield block is off GCD, you’ll keep it up anyway. Of course, button mashing is disadvantageous in its own way, but if you’re using a timer for SB, like Chronometer, it’s just “press a random button if it drops off”.
Vene: I was surprised you didn’t mention the other obvious upgrade from the badge shield - Dawnforged Defender. It has more in the way of threat stats than the Gladiator’s shield’s raw stamina and resilience, but I don’t see this as much of a problem, certainly the 0.8% hit is a nice chunk for something that costs no badges at all and doesn’t require you to engage in an utterly hateful PvP grind.
@marklar: Your choices to handle this would be either (1) have shield block on your action bar just tell you when it was up or (2) tie the shield block tooltip to your devastate since it’s got now cooldown you’d always know you could use it.
@Namthe: Dawnforged Defender was an oversight on my part and is definitely a fantastic shield, however there’s something to be said for the fact that the defender requires Exalted with the SSO whereas the S1 shield can be attained in a couple days of goofing around.
as far as off-tanking goes at least when the MT is Drood or pally a warriors 5 sunders is a nice melee dps increase alot of people don’t consider. I was thinking about it and while not doing the calculations for it i believe its 2080 armor reduction. Seems good to me. I know off tanking in MH i can put up 500 dps as prot our droods put up 800 damn you Blizzard! I guess thats the price we pay for being such good MTs
As far as AOE tanking goes pickup dabiri’s enigma and Figurine of the Collosus, get thorns, get shield spike, get blessing of sanctuary. This is the most fun you will have as a warrior. Tell your healer not to heal tell your aoe to wait, let yourself get low and pop both trinkets (watch your health fill up and now you got heal threat on top of everything else). I find this most fun on the worms in MGT and on the dudes after malacrass, mages will try to steal your fun DONT LET THEM!.
Tried and tested the binding of shield block to all threat abilities on gruul last night. Worked like a charm. The main reason being that I could completely focus on the fight and cave ins rather than making sure my block was up. Thanks for answering the question though and you are dead on about it being only for boss/infinite rage fights. I only plan to throw on those macros when a crush means a wipe.
“there’s something to be said for the fact that the defender requires Exalted with the SSO whereas the S1 shield can be attained in a couple days of goofing around.”
A couple days? Not all of us are on realms where our faction always wins BG using pre-formed groups. It would easily take a week or two on my server to pull together the honor and pvp marks. Alliance on my server loses 9/10 BG’s. It took me forever just to get my gladiator shoulders. Plus, losing every single game quickly becomes an incredibly frustrating way to play. I found it much, MUCH more bearable to grind to exalted with SSO in a couple weeks, not to mention all the cash I made.
Thank you for the great podcast, your insight and comments on the tanking world are always appreciated and I look forward to each update that you get to do on this site.
I wanted though to add in a comment to the last part of the podcast where you talked about people who think that are not enough tanks because there is not enough tanking gear. I absolutely agree that there is so much tanking gear out there now, especially past 2.4, that becoming a well gear tank is easily reachable.
Which is what my problem with the game is currently. At this time there is not much of a way to distinguish myself from a scrub tank who just leveled up to 70 3 months ago, did a lot of kara runs and is now decked out in tank gear.
I love the fact that getting tank gear is easier now, but its made the work that I have done to get into BT and get the right tanking gear through kara, scc, tk, seem kinda pointless.
I know that gear always gets replaced and upgraded, but with 2.4 it seemed like a huge jump from the previous set of badge gear.
I hope that with WotLK we wont gets waves of better and better gear that require little effort or skill to obtain.
I just watch Nightbanes castbars. As for Vene’s explanation of DBM/Bigwigs using the cooldown timer. Cooldown on Akil’zon’s storm in ZA is the same way. Collapse after the cooldown and wait for the cast.
For Nightbane (or Shade of Aran, or any mob that casts, really), I can’t recommend the Quartz casting bar mod enough. My enemy cast bar is bloody enormous (I got the idea from Rochelle’s UI), so I can’t miss the fears. Ok, I can, but I don’t have an excuse for it.
Vene, I completely agree with you about gear. Those warriors out there who complain that there is not enough gear for them are dead wrong. I pretty much used your guide to pre-Kara gear and was able to tank the last 3 bosses of Kara with only 2 or 3 wipes (mostly due to my lack of knowledge of the fight).
We are lucky in a way that most of the really good gear that you need pre-Kara are quest rewards or crafted! Dosn’t get much easier then that. I know people like to complain that it’s hard to get groups together for SL, Mech, Bot, etc. but those people are just lazy. I went from a brand new lvl 70 warrior (BS but not armorsmith) in mostly greens to your pre-Kara list, all via pug. (A side note, my that first adventure in Kara was a pug)
If you arn’t willing to do the instance, however you can, pug or no pug, you are going to have a hard time when you are learning the pulls and boss fights in Kara and beyond. We warriors have to be dedicated to to running instances however we can get them. I think that we get more out of them then most classes do.
Keep up the good work Vene! Sorry for the block of text
The question about cleave vs. Heroic Strike may be confusing fury warriors using Cleave instead of HS while DPSing (even on single target bosses). It has a lower built-in threat coefficient, so I’ve heard of people using Cleave instead of Heroic strike - you get the same reduced miss rate, with less extra threat.
Thanks for the tip vene. I do watch the cast timer on nightbane now and have a trigger I watch for. When Nightbane gets into casting that fear, the ground around me starts to shake. When that happens, i stance dance and pop bezerker rage. I usually see the ground shake and the fear timer is going all the time, so i now just key in for the ground to shake. I’ve been successful the past 2 weeks doing that if I have one priest in the group.. If there are 2 priests, I have them rotate a fear ward. I’d probably successful doing that even if i had no priests healing. *nervous laugh*
@Gorrack. Sooo true. Akil in ZA is the same with DBM. Its usually badly mistimed. Wowwiki tells you that if you turn up the ambiance, you can probably hear the storm rolling in from a distance, but I just go by the timer and collapse. Even if its a little early.
Just got Akil down in ZA the other night. Turn your sounds and music all the way down and the amience all the way up and you can’t miss the sound of the rain. It reminds me of my vacations in Costa Rica, lol.
Yeah the Shaking on Nightbane is the best way to judge it, I’ve used that since I was tanking him with the crest of shatar and suneater. I couldn’t think of what I did when I heard the podcast though cause its so natural for me that Its like second nature. As far as Akilzon, look for the rain and look for the purple beam he shots out at the person who becomes the storm. Also the Bigwigs timers seem pretty accurate since 2.4 will go at about 5 secs before at the earliest but most the time its right on.
As far as the warrior gear situation. I remember when you had to grind shat rep to get a decent shield. Slabs for a trinket and shoulders and you didn’t go into Kara sporting a few BOJ pieces cause they pretty much sucked, its rediculous. I got a pally tank at 66 and a Warrior and already my pally has engineering helm and half the BG honor for the gavel and I remember hitting 70 on my warrior and having to jump through hoops to get Kara ready and attuned. I can easily be tanking Kara within a couple days at 70 max, maybe sooner. It’s just way too easy now a days.
@AnotherTank: At this time there is not much of a way to distinguish myself from a scrub tank who just leveled up to 70 3 months ago, did a lot of kara runs and is now decked out in tank gear.
If your experience has made you a better Tank, that should differentiate you. If it hasn’t… well, then, new Tanks deserve to catch up and/or overtake you.
I hit 70 exactly 3 months ago, coincidentally enough and am now “decked out” coincidentally enough. Again, if I’m just as capable as you it’s time for some competition. Are you nervous? =)
You can’t have a meaningful discussion when everyone agrees with everything
FWIW, Sunwell Radiance only applies to bosses in Sunwell, not everything.
I think you have the reason for the Sunwell Radiance backwards. I think it is there because tanks were getting ridiculous amount of Effective Health, not because they had huge amounts of avoidance. In order for Effective Health to be an efficient way to gear a tank, you have to assume adequate levels of avoidance. You also have to consider that for at least 2 of the 6 bosses in Sunwell, no amount of EH will save you. Stomp from Brutallus (http://thottbot.com/s45185) decreases your armor by 50% and Corrosion from Felmyst (http://thottbot.com/s45866) increases physical damage by 100%. I think that abilities like that, plus the Sunwell Radiance buff was Blizzards way of telling tanks that stacking stamina to the exclusion of everything else is the wrong approach. Its not that some tanks had ridiculous amounts of avoidance, it was because most tanks had neglected avoidance.
I think that expertise is a very nice stat and is great for threat, but to call it a survival stat is really a reach. I honestly can’t remember the last time I died due to parry haste. RNG can screw you with your pants on, but it has been my experience that when things go wrong, avoidance will keep you alive more often than expertise will keep things from going wrong in the first place.
And the commendation is the second best trinket in the game, not the best and here is why: when you are fighting a very hard hitting boss (Azgalor, Archimonde, Illidan, Brutallus, Sathrovarr, Sacrolash) you never get under 35%. You can pretty easily go from 40% or 50% to dead in one swing. Or, due to latency, I have seen a fast hitting boss (Illidan, Brutallus) knock a tank to below 35% and then land another swing before the proc registers. Don’t get me wrong, it is a very good trinket and I wear it on boss fights, but it takes a backseat to my dear sweet Pocket Watch.
I consider myself a very good tank and I get a lot of comments about how they like me as a tank, so your jab at calling me a bad tank is noted
By distinguishing myself from the scrub tanks, I was not really referring to the skill basis of being tank. Like all classes and rolls, you can easily understand the basics of a role and be able to perform well, with a little practice.
I am referring more to how do I show that I am better then another tank at a glance, if we both decked out in badge gear, because it’s the best that anyone could get shy of sunwell. There are some pieces that can still stand out t6 shoulders, brute, etc.
Now I know just because one is in gear it does not mean he is a good tank or not, but at least before you could tell how far a tank has gotten. Now all any tank needed is a couple of badge runs through kara to be close to equal to a tank that’s farming BT.
Let’s keep it kind guys. Kerchunk was making a pretty good point and not trying to offend you imo. Basically, the point is that standing around Org.. you don’t need to be different.. it’s inside an encounter where the difference matters
Part of what Blizz has done to differentiate people these days is titles… that’s kinda like the new way of “outgearing” people. I dunno if I like that or not, but that’s the road they’re headed down. (they even mention that stuff like the bear mount in ZA won’t exist anymore when WotLK is released)
So what the point of playing the game to improve my character if all I have to do is just stand around and get better gear, wether or not it desirved of me to get that level of gear.
If I can just take the easy road and have my buddies do kara badge farm runs to gear me up, what the point of even tryign to progress through the raid content.
I am going to wear the pants from akama, not for any other reason then that it shows I have at least downed akama, not just bought the badge pants. Now I know that they are a very marganal decrease in the level of gear, but at least I have something that shows I have progressed.
The whole game atm just feels cheapened in the fact that I dont really have to progress in raid conent to have a charater equiped to take on the raid content.
I liked when blizzard added the initial badge gear becuase ti was a supplment to the raiding gear, not just a flat out replacement of the raid gear.
I think 2.4 badge gear was uber-inflated on purpose to give as many people as possible the chance to get into some of the high-end raid content before WotLK comes out, after which those dungeons will become as empty as Strat, MC, and BWL. This was the last major patch before the expansion as far as I know. TBC is really starting to wind down, so I think you may be a little late if you’re just now trying to differentiate yourself from tanks in mostly badge gear.
I think Blizz wants everyone to be on a fairly equal playing field running into Northrend. The 2.4 badge gear helps accomplish that.
@Vrathmat - I understand as well that may be the reason as to why they did it, but while not everyone can be apart fo those hardcore guidl clearing content before the casuals, Working as I did through SSC, TK, Kara, etc seems just like wasted time and not the accomplishments it should be
The discussion is falling into those vicious “ppl who don’t deserve their gear” discussions. You can inspect a tank that has full t5 or t6 with a bulwark of azzinoth and say “wow”, but it really doesn’t give ppl the right to assume that a person with a hodgepodge of badge/ZA/kara gear tanking Gruulz, mags, or t5 start content is terrible.
For example, in gruulz about 3 weeks ago, one of these warriors in 3 pieces of t4 just blatently said in raid chat “LOL, I outgear both of these guys(me and this other tank)”. I still had my blue bold chest and my S1 shield/shoulders with kara gear and my tankatronic goggs. Since i never got to do much 25man content, I kinda took offense to that. However, as gracious as I am, i didn’t even respond. Then when the tank lost aggro on High King, i intervened, taunted, and pulled it back to the tank that lol’ed at me. That was all the payback i needed…
Just got a chance to listen to the podcast. Excellent entertainment as well as a great way to improve my tanking (and enjoyment of the game) all while farming.
I definitely don’t want to give off the perception that I am referring to a “ppl who don’t deserve their gear” discussion, I mainly wanted to express my disheartening to the situation that I cannot feel justified scrapping and crawling my way through raid content, if its all just going to be replaced with badge gear that anyone can get.
I don’t feel proud of the gear that I have anyone; I don’t feel proud that I cleared the raid instances, because anyone who wants to can have my equal gear status, tanking skills aside.
I know tanking skills is the deciding factor, but I don’t want to have to always have to be running around proving myself and having to convince others that I am better then random badge gear tank #486
But like I mentioned earlier the previous sets of badge gear where great supplements to the raid tanking gear, not just flat out replacements for the raid tanking gear. It’s mostly that which has me vexed
My point was that the closer we get to WotLK, the more obsolete and pointless progression in TBC is going to feel. We’re basically killing time until it’s released, so there’s really not much special about clearing kara/za/ssc anymore. The exact same thing happened right before TBC came out. It’s just the nature of the game when expansions are involved. Start preparing to vendor those purples you spent months waiting to drop.
The sense of accomplishment should come from the accomplishment itself. Gear comes and goes. Like how a level 62 HFP Green was better than anything outside of Naxx. The next XPak will likely bring a similar situation. Everything prior to possibly BT gear is going to be replaced by Green quest rewards by level 75.
If you’ve cleared content, why do others even need to know about it? Who are these people that you keep referring to that you need to “prove yourself to”? You shouldn’t have to prove yourself to your own guild, and what PUGs are you trying to impress?
Vene, I just tanked a hyjal last night where the first 2 bosses trash included was tanked by me a prot warrior, a fearl druid and another prot warrior we did fine. A prot pally in our guild seems to be a luxury and we have adapted around it.
@AnotherTank: Now all any tank needed is a couple of badge runs through kara to be close to equal to a tank that’s farming BT.
A tank who is not in T5+ content needs ~465 Badges to purchase his way to this level of Gear. That’s slightly more than “a couple of badge runs through kara.”
I am referring more to how do I show that I am better then another tank at a glance…
You don’t. That’s exactly my point. Glancing at you and seeing that you ran T5+ content doesn’t tell me **** about how you compare to a Tank who geared with badges instead. You could be better, equally skilled or worse. I don’t know until I actually see you perform in a group.
You seem to be holding on to this notion that just because you ran this content, you’re automatically better than those who didn’t and should “stand out.” That’s not the case.
If I can just take the easy road and have my buddies do kara badge farm runs to gear me up, what the point of even tryign to progress through the raid content.
I don’t know. Fun? Satisfaction?
If the primary thing that motivates you to raid is so you can stand around Shattrath looking better than those who don’t, I don’t know what to say… that’s depressing.
The notion that you would prefer to slag through countless Karazhan and Heroic runs instead of experiencing the amazing raid content in this game is equally depressing. You really think that’s a more satisfying way to gear up a character?
I don’t want to have to always have to be running around proving myself and having to convince others that I am better then random badge gear tank #486
Yah, well, tough ****. Random badge gear tank #486 doesn’t want to have to always be running around proving himself and convincing people he’s better than random SSC/TK gear tank #362 either, but that’s how it works. Performance in raids speaks, not where you got your gear.
If you can’t easily demonstrate that you’re superior to a badge geared Tank, maybe you’re not?
Again, all of your comments seem couched in this notion that a “badge geared” Tank is always and without a doubt a worse Tank than you just because you raided some dungeons he did not. You’ve got to get that notion out of your head, because it’s not true.
I do agree that these post 2.4 days does make it a tad harder to tell who a good tank is by a glance, but for the warriors who do know how to tank, we should be mentioning this over what gear we have. 20k hp buffed doesnt stand out anymore, but the skills that you have aquired over the past 3~4 years do.
Remember back when warriors were the only tanks and aoe pally tanking was just a glimmer in Blizz’s eye? We had to multi-mob tank. And not just 2 mobs, oh no. We got to tank whole groups of mobs, without TC or devistate.
If you want to make yourself stand out to a guild that your trying out for, invite them to come on a run with you. “Sure, couple of badges and we get to see how this guy does first hand,” is what they will say to themselves. But here is the kicker, when they get there, get all buffed up and ask what mobs to cc, simply tell them none.
They will be dumbfounded that some idiot would even think to apply to thier guild, and probably already have a guild tank waiting in the wings for when the kick ya out of the group. Here is where you skill as a warrior tank comes into play (granted that you are at this skill level). tank the pulls without cc, watch them pick thier jaws up off the ground and have them wonder if your actualy a pally and thier UI shows you as having rage.
Of course this can only really apply to people who have the skill to do so (not quite there myself even) But showing someone your skill and abilities can do a world of good for ya. And not to mention that when someone is in a run with a great tank, they like to brag about it to thier friends. And you’ll get invites to runs from then again and again. (has happend to me, though im most of the time with my guild so i respectfully turn them down)
After this wall of text crushing blows you for 90k (apperently my post is a mob in WotLK…) the point of it is “Yea, Random tank #728 may have the same stats as me, but does he have the knowledge I do? I thought not.”
An informed tank will likely have some amount of badge gear as it is better then many of the items that drop in raids.
Yes, Blizzard is filling gaps so that more people can get into higher end raids before the expansion hits. And while a tank who geared completely in Karazhan/Badge gear may be every bit as skilled and competent as a tank in the Sunwell, the tank in Sunwell has something the badge tank simply doesn’t have; the experience and lessons that all of the previous content gives you.
How many encounters, or elements of encounters, help you prepare for the next? Being able to learn those lessons and apply them is what helps make you a good tank.
Just so nobody thinks I am stroking my e-peen, if you scroll up Vene asked me how much expertise I usually have, I am not bragging about my stats for no good reason.
In my progression boss gear I have 25 expertise, 41 hit, 34.7% dodge, 23.7% parry, 7.4% to be missed, 17.1k hp and 19.2 armor. And that setup has one piece of badge gear - the new ring.
AnotherTank:
Vene said in his article about raid leading that “leading for recognition will make you miserable b/c you’ll never get enough”. Same goes for playing the game really, all I can suggest is try to enjoy the game on some other level or perhaps you’d be happier looking for a new game?
About the Sunwell Radiance thing, I just wanted to note, remember that rather large ‘heated discussion’ we had a little while ago about how tank gear itemisation sucks because it was harder to tank T6 content in full T6 gear than in T5 because of too much avoidance? Now we hit Sunwell and you need T6 because of the avoidance. I know the original argument went further than that but does it at least make sense to people that tanking itemisation is optimised for the *next* level up since you obviously don’t need it to tank whatever you’re already farming?
Thats an interesting thought Talisman. The way you have to deal with Sunwell Radiance is to pull together as much avoidance as you can once you get around 17-18k unbuffed non-tauren-hax hp. Which means that the top level gear is even worse than before for anything but top level content.
The whole ‘recognition/deserving’ argument has been done to death elsewhere. Everyone would like to be noticed when walking through IF whether it is because they have the biggest shiniest sword, or their S3 shoulders or 8/8 T6 or hell, even 8/8 T3. But the problem is that for those people to get noticed, there needs to be an underclass of players who notice them. Its the Haves and the Have-nots. Except in this case the Have-nots largely don’t care about what the Haves have. But Blizzard certainly doesn’t want the Have-nots who do care about that kind of thing to feel bad it. It doesn’t make sense from a business perspective. It makes more sense for them to slight the Haves that care about that kind of thing which is a minority of a minority.
The thing is, I’m not sure tier 5 and tier 6 raids and gear prove better experience or knowledge anyhow. When I evaluate an applicant or another player in general, tank or otherwise, I look first for badge gear and ZA gear and that it’s properly gemmed/enchanted. That proves to me that they know what the want and how to get it. Additionally, I think ZA is a great test of player skill, more so than even tier 6 raids.
If for example I saw a tank wearing Akama’s legs I wouldn’t think to myself, “oh wow, they’ve killed Akama,” I think, “that poor guy is uniformed and doesn’t know that the badge legs are better.” The same would be true for any gear slot wear a badge item is better than what someone is wearing.
I think everyone is missing the point here. So what that the new badge gear is totally awesome and that anything you get with be obsolete by the time you are level 73? So what that Mr Soandsotank jumped on a bandwagon and got geared up quicker than you. Who cares how much better you are than him? The simple fact is, is it fun? Was raiding Kara a good laugh? Did you enjoy taking on Gruul and Mag? Did you have fun joining a guild meeting 24 likeminded people who wanted to enjoy the challenges put to them? Surely the whole point is to have FUN, and enjoy yourself. The second it becomes a slog and unenjoyable you should stop. Personally, I’ve been level 70 for 4 months, got in raiding guild, we can clear Kara in about 7 hours, and we took out first steps in ZA last week, and I’m having a blast, it’s the most fun I’ve had playing the game since I started 18 months ago, and that’s all that matters IMO. Yes it’s nice to get a new piece of gear, but it’s not the be all and end all.
@Kerchunk
“Again, all of your comments seem couched in this notion that a “badge geared” Tank is always and without a doubt a worse Tank than you just because you raided some dungeons he did not. You’ve got to get that notion out of your head, because it’s not true.”
Sorry, but it is true. There is raid content, bosses and trash, that are more unique and more difficult than any 5/10 person instance. In vanilla WoW, certain epics were proof of your capability. I still have that view even in today’s world of casualcraft. I have no ill will toward badge gear or folks having fun. But to compare tank skill in and out of end game raids is laughable.
I really must of come across the wrong way with my comments. I am not trying to hold superiority over another, nor am I upset with the replacement of gear with better gear, gear gets replaced systematically, never had an issue with that.
I guess its just trying to be that unique snowflake instead of being the same quivering pile of mass. Now I do take pride with my titles that I got, it at least shows that I attuned myself and did not skirt in when everything was opened up. But with the current system it’s not hard to go back and get those quest completed.
I would hope if gear is no longer going to be a gauge of accomplishment in the game that they bring in some other mechanism that does allow for that.
I remember the days where you saw a TF T2 warrior and thought man that guy has done a lot, paid his dues, and is something to aspire to. The same thing when you say a T6 war with the massive Bulwark on his back. It’s not showing off, it a badge of honor showing that you have conquered the content. It’s the same thing as the PVP titles and PVP mount. They are not showing off or holding it over anyone, it just what they have earned. (if they do hold it over and are pricks about it, well they are douche bags and no one needs to aspire to be that)
As said earlier, if you are disheartened by the fact that badge gear is making you feel bad that you progressed as far as you did before it came down, then watch out when WotLK comes out. The entire world will have better gear than you at level 73 when they plop down that $30 for the install disk.
A few weeks ago I was in Molten Core on a lark and got the Belt of Might to drop. The what? Yeah, that really awesome lvl60 epic belt. What’s it worth now? About 200g on the AH.
I find this game plays very interestingly on two aspects of the human condition: the desire to get new things and the ability to take anything for granted if it’s around long enough. Enjoy what you can while you have it, but know that in time it will be worthless except as remembrance.
Some people play on under-populated servers where no matter how hard you try, how hardcore you are, how much research you do, how much skill you have, you just can’t keep up with the progression because it would be impossible to organize an entire guild’s worth of people of the right composition who are like-minded.
I guarantee there are thousands of badge-geared tanks out there that are simply BETTER at their class than people pushing Sunwell cause they’re frankly just plain unlucky.
Once you understand how to best gear yourself for specific encounters and have your rotation down pat you can tank any 25-man raid boss with the right level of gear…whether its from a badge vendor or a previous instance.
Besides, staring at boss crotch and making sure you press the correct buttons over and over is not difficult. -_- If you ask me, a heroic Mr. T with 3 merciless DPSer’s, no CC and a crappy healer is harder than tanking any 25-man raid boss.
Calling them “welfare” epics may be applicable to some people, but its not to all. Don’t generalize.
I don’t understand the need/desire to stand out or prove myself other than doing well in the raids for my guildies. As long as I am having fun and I pull my weight in the guild, nothing else matters to me.
The way my guild does loot through EP/GP, and without any decay ( I keep arguing with them about that), I’m better off to skip T4 loot and go for badge gear. It seems like with badge gear you don’t really need to do SSC and TK (although I want to do it for fun not gear) and you can go from Kara/Gruuls/Mags to ZA or maybe further.
It seems the trend is to make all the raids a little easier since the expansion is only months away. I started Wow after BC so I never saw all the level 60 raids. I guess the level 70 man raids will be obsolete after the expansion as well.
“Sorry, but it is true. There is raid content, bosses and trash, that are more unique and more difficult than any 5/10 person instance. In vanilla WoW, certain epics were proof of your capability. I still have that view even in today’s world of casualcraft. I have no ill will toward badge gear or folks having fun. But to compare tank skill in and out of end game raids is laughable.”
This has been gone over before; the individual level of skill required isn’t really much higher in 10-mans versus 25-mans. The increased difficulty comes from the fact that you’re relying on 2.5x more people, and you’re much more likely to have 1+ person make a mistake when there are 25 people than when there are 10 people.
You’re not necessarily more skilled because you can press Shield Block when you see a Shear cast bar, or because you can intervene at a set time, or because you can slam your fear-dance macro when the ground starts rumbling.
The only thing I’d concede that a 25man tank who’s done everything from Molten Core to Sunwell is that he’s seen more encounters, which to me is like job experience, but experience and skill are different things entirely.
I’m a Warrior MT for a small guild who are causal about or raiding…We go to Kara (but haven’t downed Netherspite or Nightbane)…I have pug’d Gruul as an OT once and Mag as MT once. I’ve seen Nalorakk go down twice in ZA and we haven’t quite been able to get Akil’zon down just yet. I’ve been progressively getting better at tanking thanks to sites like this.
When I cashed in those 100 badges to upgrade my Vindicator’s Hauberk for that sweet Badge Breastplate, that was a huge highlight and felt like a real accomplishment. I am half way to getting that sweet Badge Ring too…Shade just won’t give me his
Just adding another perspective to the whole honor/recognition portion of this thread
I have a lot of friends in my guild and will be staying put…probably to the exclusion of seeing 25 mans…but in another couple/three months I’ll have those sweet Badge Legs…can’t wait!
Ya, my example was focused pretty much at the tank that just waltzed into the raid and started making fun of the other tanks. Basically “haha i’m better than you since i have 3 pieces of t4.” Didn’t mean to give the impression that I was uber tank +++++++, but it was my way of telling that tank “psst.. 3 pieces of t4 gear doesn’t make you better”.
“Besides, staring at boss crotch and making sure you press the correct buttons over and over is not difficult. -_- If you ask me, a heroic Mr. T with 3 merciless DPSer’s, no CC and a crappy healer is harder than tanking any 25-man raid boss.”
People seem to have forgotten the original TK attunement before it was lifted and the dungeons were nerfed. Raid tanks do heroics with overzealous dps just as much as anyone.
“The only thing I’d concede that a 25man tank who’s done everything from Molten Core to Sunwell is that he’s seen more encounters, which to me is like job experience, but experience and skill are different things entirely.”
Maybe, but would a poorly skilled tank would continue to receive raid invites and continue to clear content?
“You’re not necessarily more skilled because you can press Shield Block when you see a Shear cast bar, or because you can intervene at a set time, or because you can slam your fear-dance macro when the ground starts rumbling.”
Clarify what makes you skilled then - we’ve seen warriors fail at these things as simple as it may seem; wouldn’t that make them lesser skilled?
@Haedes: There is raid content, bosses and trash, that are more unique and more difficult than any 5/10 person instance.
Okay, and? Just because someone hasn’t see that content doesn’t mean they don’t possess the skills necessary to overcome it successfully.
I play on a low-population server and had to take time off from the game last year when my son was born. Now, there are exactly zero guilds on my server running SSC/TK on a regular basis - so I’ve never seen the content.
Are you telling me that automatically means I’m a lesser-skilled Tank than you? Really?
Sorry, but no.
But to compare tank skill in and out of end game raids is laughable.
You’re getting confused. Nobody is arguing that Tanking raids doesn’t require more skill, we’re saying that just because a Tank hasn’t doesn’t mean they don’t have the skills necessary to do so given the opportunity.
Clarify what makes you skilled then - we’ve seen warriors fail at these things as simple as it may seem; wouldn’t that make them lesser skilled?
Skill is indepedent of individual encounters is essentially the message. Having done TK doesn’t make you a “better Tank,” although it does make you “better at Tanking TK.” The fundamental skills are the same, and a Badge-geared tank can learn those whether or not he runs the older raid content or not:
a) How to properly research and prepare for fights and instances with gear, enchants, consumables, macros, etc.
b) How to maximize threat generation through optimal use of rage and skill rotation.
c) How and when to use survival techniques like Last Stand, Shield Wall, Ironshield and Healing potions.
d) How to effectively tank multiple targets when necessary.
e) How to efficiently refresh shouts, thunderclap and demoralizing shout without sacrificing threat.
etc., etc. These are the things which determine whether a tank is “skilled” or not, and they’re all things that can be learned without experiencing each and every single raid encounter in the game.
So, to reiterate and clarify:
Does tanking an encounter make someone a better at Tanking that particular encounter? Yes.
Does tanking an encounter mean you’re automatically a better Tank than someone who has not? No, of course not.
So to restate my original point, seeing someone in T5/T6 gear doesn’t tell you anything useful about how their fundamental skills compare to someone who geared up using Badges instead. Skill is skill, regardless of where and how you gained it.
Kerchunk, you are missing my point entirely. Reread my original post. I’m not saying that great tanks exist outside of raiding. What I am trying to express, which I first replied to, was that overcoming more raid content teaches you more about the game and your class through experience. Onyxia made Nefarion easier which made Nightbane simple, etc. How can you say that doesn’t matter? Of course people have tanked Nightbane without doing BWL - but having already done that type of fight you’d have more skill to do it more effectively, faster. It’s ridiculous to say you can’t tell anything useful about the skills of a T5/T6 player compared to a fully badge geared player. Even applying to guild, what do they ask? What gear do you have and what content have you done. Maybe it’s not always correct, but it’s reality.
I think you are confusing skill with experience. Having experienced a similar encounter before does not impart any particular skill. It imparts knowledge of the strategy, nothing more. And added to that, what if you were the first person to ever tank Nightbane? All your previous experiences would mean nothing strategy-wise since you had no idea going in that the encounter was similar. Experience doesn’t count for much these days to be honest since I can go read the strats for any encounter and memorize them. To me, the skill part doesn’t even come into play until the unexpected happens and the strategy breaks down.
It was forever ago in this thread and I totally forgot about it until now, but tying shield block to all of your other abilities will result in your screen being spammed with “That ability is not ready yet”. You can get an addon that takes away those error messages, but just because you don’t see them, doesn’t mean they aren’t there. And because they ARE there, whether you see them or not, you are going to experience a diminished frame rate which is going to greatly hinder your threat generation. Its why you are better off deliberately pressing buttons as opposed to mashing.
I’ve bolded the 3 lines that hide, clear and show any error code that happens after the fact. That being said, I have no idea how this would impact one’s frame rate. I can say that using such macros in the past didn’t seem to affect my computer’s performance at all.
I don’t see how adding those lines to every macro is easier than using an addon. But my point is, no matter what, when you push a button, your client does a check to see if it is possible to perform an action and if it is not possible, then the error exists. Whether or not you have taken steps to hide the error is irrelevant because the error IS there. My computer is far from top of the line and I am pretty happy when I get 15 fps during a boss fight that has a lot going on. But if I let myself get a little trigger happy and spam buttons before things are off cooldown, my framerate will drop into the single digits until I remind myself not to be such a scrub and be deliberate and then my framerate goes back up to the mid-teens. And when tanking, when using every GCD matters for threat generation, there is a noticable difference between spamming and not spamming. By tying everything together with a macro, you are getting all the button spam without the carpal tunnel
Yeah, 15? Wow. I play on a MacBook Pro (laptop) and I maintain between 30 and 50 fps. I don’t use any of the error frame scripts though simply because I don’t care if it says an error on my screen. It’s tiny and way up at the top. I turn off the error voice though.
What I am trying to express, which I first replied to, was that overcoming more raid content teaches you more about the game and your class through experience.
I realize that’s your point. I’m saying you’re wrong. Tanking encounters teaches you how to tank those particular encounters well, but you’re not learning some new fundamental technique that’s inaccessible to those who haven’t. The fundamentals are the fundamentals. You don’t learn them by encountering specific bosses.
By your rationale, I could take any random Warrior in trade chat, run him through BT a few times until he has done the fights and has T6 gear and he would automatically be skilled. Do you really think that’s true?
Onyxia made Nefarion easier which made Nightbane simple, etc. How can you say that doesn’t matter?
It’s easy because I’m walking proof. I was a healer pre-BC so I haven’t tanked any old raid content. I hit 70 three months ago on my tank. Yet, I one-shot Tanked Nightbane the first time I encountered him. How? I studied the fight, wrote/keybound/tested my stance-dance macro, made sure my castbar was very visible, and I went in and tanked him using fundamental skills - threat rotation, efficient rage use, boss positioning, etc. I didn’t lack any “skills” necessary to Tank him because I hadn’t seen Onyxia or Nefarion. I had every skill I needed at my disposal.
Incidentally, I also one-shot Prince, High King Maulgar, Gruul, Nalorakk and two-shot Magtheridon (bad clicking, not my fault on the wipe), the first time I MT’d those encounters. I had all the “skills” I needed ahead of time to tank these bosses, and made up for my lack of experience by doing research, watching videos and discussing the encounters with other tanks.
So again, being more experienced does not make you more skilled.
It’s ridiculous to say you can’t tell anything useful about the skills of a T5/T6 player compared to a fully badge geared player.
Why is that ridiculous? Explain.
What gear do you have and what content have you done. Maybe it’s not always correct, but it’s reality.
And if said guild can’t find a geared Tank with experience, what do they do? Recruit a bad or unskilled tank? No, of course not. They find an equally skilled person who can gear up and learn the encounters.
Why is that do you think? Why not take an unskilled player and just run him through to gear him up?
Simple: because given a skilled tank, it’s easy for him to gain gear and experience. Given an unskilled tank, gear and experience isn’t going to help - he’s still going to suck and lose aggro and cause wipes.
Bottom line, gear and experience are things you pick up in instances.
Incidentally, I think the fundamental error you’re making is confusing cause and effect.
Skilled Tanks are generally well-geared and progressed far because having skill has allowed them to build a reputation as a reliable Tank which has gotten them into strong guilds who progress through raid content and acquire gear.
In comparison, unskilled Tanks tend to stagnate once they hit the early Heroics, because they don’t have what it takes to progress. Therefore, they don’t get into strong guilds, can’t find reliable groups, and don’t progress.
So, yes, statistically speaking most Tanks in T5/T6 gear will be skilled or else their guilds wouldn’t have continued to allow them to tank. However, they were skilled before they had that gear and saw the content — the skill comes first.
Therefore the raid experience and gear is a result of being skilled - not the other way around.
Sweet new comment system, Vene. Love the reply ability, and I have RSS so I can tell what posts are new since they will no longer all just be at the bottom.
Kerchunk, you win at taking everything out of context. I guess the folks like myself who’ve been tanking since release know nothing - except all the theorycraft that everyone uses now. Grats on your personal success - by your conclusions you are the best warrior in WoW.
Blizzard doesn’t want BT to become another Naxx. Period. The badge gear eliminates (for the most part) the need to go through T5 content. It is not a stab at those who spent months progressing. Those people still have the satisfaction of knowing they downed Vash, or Kael’thas.
Elitism is the only thing that can explain being pissed off that we non 25-man content goers get “welfare” badge epics.
On another note. I use quickening blade of the prince with executioner, and let me tell you. Threat coming out of my arse compared to KD.
@Vene: LOL @ the guy’s guildie who said cleave is better single target threat. What an idiot. Considering the rage cost is twice as high alone (when using threat spec), yeah that makes sense.
May 13th, 2008 at 8:19 pm
I’ll have to listen to it tomorrow.
But I will say, I don’t have a problem with sunwell radiance, but could I have those 300+ item points back? Block value, strength, hit rating… something?
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May 13th, 2008 at 11:16 pm
RE: Switching to Engineering.
Yes, the Tankatronic goggles are very, very good. However, for those who chose Blacksmithing, don’t you think it’s worth hanging on to in hopes that Blacksmithing makes a comeback in WotLK? Unless you really think the Goggles are going to represent some great breakthrough for you
I took up Blacksmithing knowing Engineering had the goggles, because I’m confident BS is going to make a comeback in the expansion - a big comeback. I bet there’s going to be many people who take up Engineering in the coming months who will come to regret it as WotLK BS patterns start to roll out.
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May 14th, 2008 at 12:56 am
in the podcast, you said it would be a good idea to put shield block in a macro with your threat abilities. but how would you see when your SB cooldown was up? what if your SB cooldown expired just AFTER you hit one of your global cooldown attacks? wouldn’t you go almost an entire global cooldown with no shield block?
or do i have it all wrong?
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May 14th, 2008 at 1:39 am
marklar: This is true, but it all depends on your playstyle. If you’re one of those that mash buttons, then because shield block is off GCD, you’ll keep it up anyway. Of course, button mashing is disadvantageous in its own way, but if you’re using a timer for SB, like Chronometer, it’s just “press a random button if it drops off”.
Vene: I was surprised you didn’t mention the other obvious upgrade from the badge shield - Dawnforged Defender. It has more in the way of threat stats than the Gladiator’s shield’s raw stamina and resilience, but I don’t see this as much of a problem, certainly the 0.8% hit is a nice chunk for something that costs no badges at all and doesn’t require you to engage in an utterly hateful PvP grind.
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May 14th, 2008 at 1:55 am
@marklar: Your choices to handle this would be either (1) have shield block on your action bar just tell you when it was up or (2) tie the shield block tooltip to your devastate since it’s got now cooldown you’d always know you could use it.
example:
#showtooltip Shield Block
/cast Shield Block
/cast Devastate
@Namthe: Dawnforged Defender was an oversight on my part and is definitely a fantastic shield, however there’s something to be said for the fact that the defender requires Exalted with the SSO whereas the S1 shield can be attained in a couple days of goofing around.
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May 14th, 2008 at 2:58 am
as far as off-tanking goes at least when the MT is Drood or pally a warriors 5 sunders is a nice melee dps increase alot of people don’t consider. I was thinking about it and while not doing the calculations for it i believe its 2080 armor reduction. Seems good to me. I know off tanking in MH i can put up 500 dps as prot our droods put up 800
damn you Blizzard! I guess thats the price we pay for being such good MTs
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May 14th, 2008 at 3:12 am
As far as AOE tanking goes pickup dabiri’s enigma and Figurine of the Collosus, get thorns, get shield spike, get blessing of sanctuary. This is the most fun you will have as a warrior. Tell your healer not to heal tell your aoe to wait, let yourself get low and pop both trinkets (watch your health fill up and now you got heal threat on top of everything else). I find this most fun on the worms in MGT and on the dudes after malacrass, mages will try to steal your fun DONT LET THEM!.
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May 14th, 2008 at 3:40 am
Tried and tested the binding of shield block to all threat abilities on gruul last night. Worked like a charm. The main reason being that I could completely focus on the fight and cave ins rather than making sure my block was up. Thanks for answering the question though and you are dead on about it being only for boss/infinite rage fights. I only plan to throw on those macros when a crush means a wipe.
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May 14th, 2008 at 7:43 am
“there’s something to be said for the fact that the defender requires Exalted with the SSO whereas the S1 shield can be attained in a couple days of goofing around.”
A couple days? Not all of us are on realms where our faction always wins BG using pre-formed groups. It would easily take a week or two on my server to pull together the honor and pvp marks. Alliance on my server loses 9/10 BG’s. It took me forever just to get my gladiator shoulders. Plus, losing every single game quickly becomes an incredibly frustrating way to play. I found it much, MUCH more bearable to grind to exalted with SSO in a couple weeks, not to mention all the cash I made.
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May 14th, 2008 at 8:21 am
That was the BEST signoff ever!
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May 14th, 2008 at 8:49 am
Thank you for the great podcast, your insight and comments on the tanking world are always appreciated and I look forward to each update that you get to do on this site.
I wanted though to add in a comment to the last part of the podcast where you talked about people who think that are not enough tanks because there is not enough tanking gear. I absolutely agree that there is so much tanking gear out there now, especially past 2.4, that becoming a well gear tank is easily reachable.
Which is what my problem with the game is currently. At this time there is not much of a way to distinguish myself from a scrub tank who just leveled up to 70 3 months ago, did a lot of kara runs and is now decked out in tank gear.
I love the fact that getting tank gear is easier now, but its made the work that I have done to get into BT and get the right tanking gear through kara, scc, tk, seem kinda pointless.
I know that gear always gets replaced and upgraded, but with 2.4 it seemed like a huge jump from the previous set of badge gear.
I hope that with WotLK we wont gets waves of better and better gear that require little effort or skill to obtain.
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May 14th, 2008 at 8:57 am
Nice cast. The quality is getting pretty good!
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May 14th, 2008 at 9:11 am
I just watch Nightbanes castbars. As for Vene’s explanation of DBM/Bigwigs using the cooldown timer. Cooldown on Akil’zon’s storm in ZA is the same way. Collapse after the cooldown and wait for the cast.
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May 14th, 2008 at 9:28 am
For Nightbane (or Shade of Aran, or any mob that casts, really), I can’t recommend the Quartz casting bar mod enough. My enemy cast bar is bloody enormous (I got the idea from Rochelle’s UI), so I can’t miss the fears. Ok, I can, but I don’t have an excuse for it.
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May 14th, 2008 at 9:39 am
Vene, I completely agree with you about gear. Those warriors out there who complain that there is not enough gear for them are dead wrong. I pretty much used your guide to pre-Kara gear and was able to tank the last 3 bosses of Kara with only 2 or 3 wipes (mostly due to my lack of knowledge of the fight).
We are lucky in a way that most of the really good gear that you need pre-Kara are quest rewards or crafted! Dosn’t get much easier then that. I know people like to complain that it’s hard to get groups together for SL, Mech, Bot, etc. but those people are just lazy. I went from a brand new lvl 70 warrior (BS but not armorsmith) in mostly greens to your pre-Kara list, all via pug. (A side note, my that first adventure in Kara was a pug)
If you arn’t willing to do the instance, however you can, pug or no pug, you are going to have a hard time when you are learning the pulls and boss fights in Kara and beyond. We warriors have to be dedicated to to running instances however we can get them. I think that we get more out of them then most classes do.
Keep up the good work Vene! Sorry for the block of text
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May 14th, 2008 at 9:44 am
@Kerchunk
I think I’m inclined to agree with you. Here’s a little something from MMO-Champion’s coverage of the WotLK announcments:
“* Blacksmithing may be able to put Gem slots on items that didn’t have them before”
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May 14th, 2008 at 9:48 am
The question about cleave vs. Heroic Strike may be confusing fury warriors using Cleave instead of HS while DPSing (even on single target bosses). It has a lower built-in threat coefficient, so I’ve heard of people using Cleave instead of Heroic strike - you get the same reduced miss rate, with less extra threat.
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May 14th, 2008 at 9:57 am
Thanks for the tip vene. I do watch the cast timer on nightbane now and have a trigger I watch for. When Nightbane gets into casting that fear, the ground around me starts to shake. When that happens, i stance dance and pop bezerker rage. I usually see the ground shake and the fear timer is going all the time, so i now just key in for the ground to shake. I’ve been successful the past 2 weeks doing that if I have one priest in the group.. If there are 2 priests, I have them rotate a fear ward. I’d probably successful doing that even if i had no priests healing. *nervous laugh*
@Gorrack. Sooo true. Akil in ZA is the same with DBM. Its usually badly mistimed. Wowwiki tells you that if you turn up the ambiance, you can probably hear the storm rolling in from a distance, but I just go by the timer and collapse. Even if its a little early.
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May 14th, 2008 at 9:59 am
Cleave does less threat than HS, but less damage as well.
Cleaves Threat to Damage ratio is actually higher than HS’s Threat to damage ratio.
So while HS is better threat on a single target, it’s also a better choice for DPS.
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May 14th, 2008 at 10:04 am
Just got Akil down in ZA the other night. Turn your sounds and music all the way down and the amience all the way up and you can’t miss the sound of the rain. It reminds me of my vacations in Costa Rica, lol.
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May 14th, 2008 at 10:24 am
Yeah the Shaking on Nightbane is the best way to judge it, I’ve used that since I was tanking him with the crest of shatar and suneater. I couldn’t think of what I did when I heard the podcast though cause its so natural for me that Its like second nature. As far as Akilzon, look for the rain and look for the purple beam he shots out at the person who becomes the storm. Also the Bigwigs timers seem pretty accurate since 2.4 will go at about 5 secs before at the earliest but most the time its right on.
As far as the warrior gear situation. I remember when you had to grind shat rep to get a decent shield. Slabs for a trinket and shoulders and you didn’t go into Kara sporting a few BOJ pieces cause they pretty much sucked, its rediculous. I got a pally tank at 66 and a Warrior and already my pally has engineering helm and half the BG honor for the gavel and I remember hitting 70 on my warrior and having to jump through hoops to get Kara ready and attuned. I can easily be tanking Kara within a couple days at 70 max, maybe sooner. It’s just way too easy now a days.
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May 14th, 2008 at 11:55 am
@AnotherTank: At this time there is not much of a way to distinguish myself from a scrub tank who just leveled up to 70 3 months ago, did a lot of kara runs and is now decked out in tank gear.
If your experience has made you a better Tank, that should differentiate you. If it hasn’t… well, then, new Tanks deserve to catch up and/or overtake you.
I hit 70 exactly 3 months ago, coincidentally enough and am now “decked out” coincidentally enough. Again, if I’m just as capable as you it’s time for some competition. Are you nervous? =)
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May 14th, 2008 at 11:59 am
You can’t have a meaningful discussion when everyone agrees with everything
FWIW, Sunwell Radiance only applies to bosses in Sunwell, not everything.
I think you have the reason for the Sunwell Radiance backwards. I think it is there because tanks were getting ridiculous amount of Effective Health, not because they had huge amounts of avoidance. In order for Effective Health to be an efficient way to gear a tank, you have to assume adequate levels of avoidance. You also have to consider that for at least 2 of the 6 bosses in Sunwell, no amount of EH will save you. Stomp from Brutallus (http://thottbot.com/s45185) decreases your armor by 50% and Corrosion from Felmyst (http://thottbot.com/s45866) increases physical damage by 100%. I think that abilities like that, plus the Sunwell Radiance buff was Blizzards way of telling tanks that stacking stamina to the exclusion of everything else is the wrong approach. Its not that some tanks had ridiculous amounts of avoidance, it was because most tanks had neglected avoidance.
I think that expertise is a very nice stat and is great for threat, but to call it a survival stat is really a reach. I honestly can’t remember the last time I died due to parry haste. RNG can screw you with your pants on, but it has been my experience that when things go wrong, avoidance will keep you alive more often than expertise will keep things from going wrong in the first place.
And the commendation is the second best trinket in the game, not the best and here is why: when you are fighting a very hard hitting boss (Azgalor, Archimonde, Illidan, Brutallus, Sathrovarr, Sacrolash) you never get under 35%. You can pretty easily go from 40% or 50% to dead in one swing. Or, due to latency, I have seen a fast hitting boss (Illidan, Brutallus) knock a tank to below 35% and then land another swing before the proc registers. Don’t get me wrong, it is a very good trinket and I wear it on boss fights, but it takes a backseat to my dear sweet Pocket Watch.
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May 14th, 2008 at 12:02 pm
oh, and I’m a dude. I was on the rowing team in college and the boats we row are called shells. Hence row - shell.
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May 14th, 2008 at 12:27 pm
lol my bad Rochelle… although in my defense… that’s a girl’s name
(man it’s been a bad week for this.. just ask Lilie.)
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May 14th, 2008 at 12:38 pm
Uou definitely have a good point regarding Sunwell Radiance, out of curiousity how much Expertise Skill do you usually have?
Also, part of the reason the trinket is so good is the Stamina too ya know
I still think you and Kav are way too head over heals for the Pocket Watch.
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May 14th, 2008 at 12:45 pm
@Kerchunk
I consider myself a very good tank and I get a lot of comments about how they like me as a tank, so your jab at calling me a bad tank is noted
By distinguishing myself from the scrub tanks, I was not really referring to the skill basis of being tank. Like all classes and rolls, you can easily understand the basics of a role and be able to perform well, with a little practice.
I am referring more to how do I show that I am better then another tank at a glance, if we both decked out in badge gear, because it’s the best that anyone could get shy of sunwell. There are some pieces that can still stand out t6 shoulders, brute, etc.
Now I know just because one is in gear it does not mean he is a good tank or not, but at least before you could tell how far a tank has gotten. Now all any tank needed is a couple of badge runs through kara to be close to equal to a tank that’s farming BT.
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May 14th, 2008 at 12:56 pm
Let’s keep it kind guys. Kerchunk was making a pretty good point and not trying to offend you imo. Basically, the point is that standing around Org.. you don’t need to be different.. it’s inside an encounter where the difference matters
Part of what Blizz has done to differentiate people these days is titles… that’s kinda like the new way of “outgearing” people. I dunno if I like that or not, but that’s the road they’re headed down. (they even mention that stuff like the bear mount in ZA won’t exist anymore when WotLK is released)
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May 14th, 2008 at 1:08 pm
So what the point of playing the game to improve my character if all I have to do is just stand around and get better gear, wether or not it desirved of me to get that level of gear.
If I can just take the easy road and have my buddies do kara badge farm runs to gear me up, what the point of even tryign to progress through the raid content.
I am going to wear the pants from akama, not for any other reason then that it shows I have at least downed akama, not just bought the badge pants. Now I know that they are a very marganal decrease in the level of gear, but at least I have something that shows I have progressed.
The whole game atm just feels cheapened in the fact that I dont really have to progress in raid conent to have a charater equiped to take on the raid content.
I liked when blizzard added the initial badge gear becuase ti was a supplment to the raiding gear, not just a flat out replacement of the raid gear.
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May 14th, 2008 at 1:09 pm
On the titles though, I really do hope they expand upon that alot.
Kinda like badges in Star Wars, before that Jedi Revamp fiasco
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May 14th, 2008 at 1:22 pm
I think 2.4 badge gear was uber-inflated on purpose to give as many people as possible the chance to get into some of the high-end raid content before WotLK comes out, after which those dungeons will become as empty as Strat, MC, and BWL. This was the last major patch before the expansion as far as I know. TBC is really starting to wind down, so I think you may be a little late if you’re just now trying to differentiate yourself from tanks in mostly badge gear.
I think Blizz wants everyone to be on a fairly equal playing field running into Northrend. The 2.4 badge gear helps accomplish that.
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May 14th, 2008 at 1:25 pm
@Vrathmat - I understand as well that may be the reason as to why they did it, but while not everyone can be apart fo those hardcore guidl clearing content before the casuals, Working as I did through SSC, TK, Kara, etc seems just like wasted time and not the accomplishments it should be
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May 14th, 2008 at 1:30 pm
The discussion is falling into those vicious “ppl who don’t deserve their gear” discussions. You can inspect a tank that has full t5 or t6 with a bulwark of azzinoth and say “wow”, but it really doesn’t give ppl the right to assume that a person with a hodgepodge of badge/ZA/kara gear tanking Gruulz, mags, or t5 start content is terrible.
For example, in gruulz about 3 weeks ago, one of these warriors in 3 pieces of t4 just blatently said in raid chat “LOL, I outgear both of these guys(me and this other tank)”. I still had my blue bold chest and my S1 shield/shoulders with kara gear and my tankatronic goggs. Since i never got to do much 25man content, I kinda took offense to that. However, as gracious as I am, i didn’t even respond. Then when the tank lost aggro on High King, i intervened, taunted, and pulled it back to the tank that lol’ed at me. That was all the payback i needed…
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May 14th, 2008 at 1:44 pm
Just got a chance to listen to the podcast. Excellent entertainment as well as a great way to improve my tanking (and enjoyment of the game) all while farming.
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May 14th, 2008 at 1:48 pm
I definitely don’t want to give off the perception that I am referring to a “ppl who don’t deserve their gear” discussion, I mainly wanted to express my disheartening to the situation that I cannot feel justified scrapping and crawling my way through raid content, if its all just going to be replaced with badge gear that anyone can get.
I don’t feel proud of the gear that I have anyone; I don’t feel proud that I cleared the raid instances, because anyone who wants to can have my equal gear status, tanking skills aside.
I know tanking skills is the deciding factor, but I don’t want to have to always have to be running around proving myself and having to convince others that I am better then random badge gear tank #486
But like I mentioned earlier the previous sets of badge gear where great supplements to the raid tanking gear, not just flat out replacements for the raid tanking gear. It’s mostly that which has me vexed
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May 14th, 2008 at 1:53 pm
Skeletaur stumps Vene.
Pizza at 11.
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May 14th, 2008 at 3:17 pm
My point was that the closer we get to WotLK, the more obsolete and pointless progression in TBC is going to feel. We’re basically killing time until it’s released, so there’s really not much special about clearing kara/za/ssc anymore. The exact same thing happened right before TBC came out. It’s just the nature of the game when expansions are involved. Start preparing to vendor those purples you spent months waiting to drop.
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May 14th, 2008 at 3:36 pm
@AnotherTank
The sense of accomplishment should come from the accomplishment itself. Gear comes and goes. Like how a level 62 HFP Green was better than anything outside of Naxx. The next XPak will likely bring a similar situation. Everything prior to possibly BT gear is going to be replaced by Green quest rewards by level 75.
If you’ve cleared content, why do others even need to know about it? Who are these people that you keep referring to that you need to “prove yourself to”? You shouldn’t have to prove yourself to your own guild, and what PUGs are you trying to impress?
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May 14th, 2008 at 3:52 pm
Vene, I just tanked a hyjal last night where the first 2 bosses trash included was tanked by me a prot warrior, a fearl druid and another prot warrior we did fine. A prot pally in our guild seems to be a luxury and we have adapted around it.
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May 14th, 2008 at 4:06 pm
@AnotherTank: Now all any tank needed is a couple of badge runs through kara to be close to equal to a tank that’s farming BT.
A tank who is not in T5+ content needs ~465 Badges to purchase his way to this level of Gear. That’s slightly more than “a couple of badge runs through kara.”
I am referring more to how do I show that I am better then another tank at a glance…
You don’t. That’s exactly my point. Glancing at you and seeing that you ran T5+ content doesn’t tell me **** about how you compare to a Tank who geared with badges instead. You could be better, equally skilled or worse. I don’t know until I actually see you perform in a group.
You seem to be holding on to this notion that just because you ran this content, you’re automatically better than those who didn’t and should “stand out.” That’s not the case.
If I can just take the easy road and have my buddies do kara badge farm runs to gear me up, what the point of even tryign to progress through the raid content.
I don’t know. Fun? Satisfaction?
If the primary thing that motivates you to raid is so you can stand around Shattrath looking better than those who don’t, I don’t know what to say… that’s depressing.
The notion that you would prefer to slag through countless Karazhan and Heroic runs instead of experiencing the amazing raid content in this game is equally depressing. You really think that’s a more satisfying way to gear up a character?
I don’t want to have to always have to be running around proving myself and having to convince others that I am better then random badge gear tank #486
Yah, well, tough ****. Random badge gear tank #486 doesn’t want to have to always be running around proving himself and convincing people he’s better than random SSC/TK gear tank #362 either, but that’s how it works. Performance in raids speaks, not where you got your gear.
If you can’t easily demonstrate that you’re superior to a badge geared Tank, maybe you’re not?
Again, all of your comments seem couched in this notion that a “badge geared” Tank is always and without a doubt a worse Tank than you just because you raided some dungeons he did not. You’ve got to get that notion out of your head, because it’s not true.
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May 14th, 2008 at 4:39 pm
@Kerchunk: Your points have validity, but I say once again… be kind. You can make your point and not be confrontational.
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May 14th, 2008 at 6:02 pm
I do agree that these post 2.4 days does make it a tad harder to tell who a good tank is by a glance, but for the warriors who do know how to tank, we should be mentioning this over what gear we have. 20k hp buffed doesnt stand out anymore, but the skills that you have aquired over the past 3~4 years do.
Remember back when warriors were the only tanks and aoe pally tanking was just a glimmer in Blizz’s eye? We had to multi-mob tank. And not just 2 mobs, oh no. We got to tank whole groups of mobs, without TC or devistate.
If you want to make yourself stand out to a guild that your trying out for, invite them to come on a run with you. “Sure, couple of badges and we get to see how this guy does first hand,” is what they will say to themselves. But here is the kicker, when they get there, get all buffed up and ask what mobs to cc, simply tell them none.
They will be dumbfounded that some idiot would even think to apply to thier guild, and probably already have a guild tank waiting in the wings for when the kick ya out of the group. Here is where you skill as a warrior tank comes into play (granted that you are at this skill level). tank the pulls without cc, watch them pick thier jaws up off the ground and have them wonder if your actualy a pally and thier UI shows you as having rage.
Of course this can only really apply to people who have the skill to do so (not quite there myself even) But showing someone your skill and abilities can do a world of good for ya. And not to mention that when someone is in a run with a great tank, they like to brag about it to thier friends. And you’ll get invites to runs from then again and again. (has happend to me, though im most of the time with my guild so i respectfully turn them down)
After this wall of text crushing blows you for 90k (apperently my post is a mob in WotLK…) the point of it is “Yea, Random tank #728 may have the same stats as me, but does he have the knowledge I do? I thought not.”
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May 14th, 2008 at 6:18 pm
An informed tank will likely have some amount of badge gear as it is better then many of the items that drop in raids.
Yes, Blizzard is filling gaps so that more people can get into higher end raids before the expansion hits. And while a tank who geared completely in Karazhan/Badge gear may be every bit as skilled and competent as a tank in the Sunwell, the tank in Sunwell has something the badge tank simply doesn’t have; the experience and lessons that all of the previous content gives you.
How many encounters, or elements of encounters, help you prepare for the next? Being able to learn those lessons and apply them is what helps make you a good tank.
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May 14th, 2008 at 9:07 pm
Just so nobody thinks I am stroking my e-peen, if you scroll up Vene asked me how much expertise I usually have, I am not bragging about my stats for no good reason.
In my progression boss gear I have 25 expertise, 41 hit, 34.7% dodge, 23.7% parry, 7.4% to be missed, 17.1k hp and 19.2 armor. And that setup has one piece of badge gear - the new ring.
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May 14th, 2008 at 9:08 pm
AnotherTank:
Vene said in his article about raid leading that “leading for recognition will make you miserable b/c you’ll never get enough”. Same goes for playing the game really, all I can suggest is try to enjoy the game on some other level or perhaps you’d be happier looking for a new game?
About the Sunwell Radiance thing, I just wanted to note, remember that rather large ‘heated discussion’ we had a little while ago about how tank gear itemisation sucks because it was harder to tank T6 content in full T6 gear than in T5 because of too much avoidance? Now we hit Sunwell and you need T6 because of the avoidance. I know the original argument went further than that but does it at least make sense to people that tanking itemisation is optimised for the *next* level up since you obviously don’t need it to tank whatever you’re already farming?
/shrug, just a thought.
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May 14th, 2008 at 9:12 pm
Thats an interesting thought Talisman. The way you have to deal with Sunwell Radiance is to pull together as much avoidance as you can once you get around 17-18k unbuffed non-tauren-hax hp. Which means that the top level gear is even worse than before for anything but top level content.
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May 14th, 2008 at 9:20 pm
The whole ‘recognition/deserving’ argument has been done to death elsewhere. Everyone would like to be noticed when walking through IF whether it is because they have the biggest shiniest sword, or their S3 shoulders or 8/8 T6 or hell, even 8/8 T3. But the problem is that for those people to get noticed, there needs to be an underclass of players who notice them. Its the Haves and the Have-nots. Except in this case the Have-nots largely don’t care about what the Haves have. But Blizzard certainly doesn’t want the Have-nots who do care about that kind of thing to feel bad it. It doesn’t make sense from a business perspective. It makes more sense for them to slight the Haves that care about that kind of thing which is a minority of a minority.
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May 14th, 2008 at 9:43 pm
Hax? HAX?! I earnt that free hp with sheer skill …
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May 14th, 2008 at 11:59 pm
The thing is, I’m not sure tier 5 and tier 6 raids and gear prove better experience or knowledge anyhow. When I evaluate an applicant or another player in general, tank or otherwise, I look first for badge gear and ZA gear and that it’s properly gemmed/enchanted. That proves to me that they know what the want and how to get it. Additionally, I think ZA is a great test of player skill, more so than even tier 6 raids.
If for example I saw a tank wearing Akama’s legs I wouldn’t think to myself, “oh wow, they’ve killed Akama,” I think, “that poor guy is uniformed and doesn’t know that the badge legs are better.” The same would be true for any gear slot wear a badge item is better than what someone is wearing.
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May 15th, 2008 at 3:44 am
I think everyone is missing the point here. So what that the new badge gear is totally awesome and that anything you get with be obsolete by the time you are level 73? So what that Mr Soandsotank jumped on a bandwagon and got geared up quicker than you. Who cares how much better you are than him? The simple fact is, is it fun? Was raiding Kara a good laugh? Did you enjoy taking on Gruul and Mag? Did you have fun joining a guild meeting 24 likeminded people who wanted to enjoy the challenges put to them? Surely the whole point is to have FUN, and enjoy yourself. The second it becomes a slog and unenjoyable you should stop. Personally, I’ve been level 70 for 4 months, got in raiding guild, we can clear Kara in about 7 hours, and we took out first steps in ZA last week, and I’m having a blast, it’s the most fun I’ve had playing the game since I started 18 months ago, and that’s all that matters IMO. Yes it’s nice to get a new piece of gear, but it’s not the be all and end all.
BTW Awesome site Vene
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May 15th, 2008 at 6:43 am
/comments for the sake of commenting after the wall of comment text that is above her just for Vene
Thank you for answering my question about the Sunguard Legs before I could even ask it. ^_^
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May 15th, 2008 at 6:47 am
@Kerchunk
“Again, all of your comments seem couched in this notion that a “badge geared” Tank is always and without a doubt a worse Tank than you just because you raided some dungeons he did not. You’ve got to get that notion out of your head, because it’s not true.”
Sorry, but it is true. There is raid content, bosses and trash, that are more unique and more difficult than any 5/10 person instance. In vanilla WoW, certain epics were proof of your capability. I still have that view even in today’s world of casualcraft. I have no ill will toward badge gear or folks having fun. But to compare tank skill in and out of end game raids is laughable.
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May 15th, 2008 at 7:43 am
I really must of come across the wrong way with my comments. I am not trying to hold superiority over another, nor am I upset with the replacement of gear with better gear, gear gets replaced systematically, never had an issue with that.
I guess its just trying to be that unique snowflake instead of being the same quivering pile of mass. Now I do take pride with my titles that I got, it at least shows that I attuned myself and did not skirt in when everything was opened up. But with the current system it’s not hard to go back and get those quest completed.
I would hope if gear is no longer going to be a gauge of accomplishment in the game that they bring in some other mechanism that does allow for that.
I remember the days where you saw a TF T2 warrior and thought man that guy has done a lot, paid his dues, and is something to aspire to. The same thing when you say a T6 war with the massive Bulwark on his back. It’s not showing off, it a badge of honor showing that you have conquered the content. It’s the same thing as the PVP titles and PVP mount. They are not showing off or holding it over anyone, it just what they have earned. (if they do hold it over and are pricks about it, well they are douche bags and no one needs to aspire to be that)
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May 15th, 2008 at 8:10 am
As said earlier, if you are disheartened by the fact that badge gear is making you feel bad that you progressed as far as you did before it came down, then watch out when WotLK comes out. The entire world will have better gear than you at level 73 when they plop down that $30 for the install disk.
A few weeks ago I was in Molten Core on a lark and got the Belt of Might to drop. The what? Yeah, that really awesome lvl60 epic belt. What’s it worth now? About 200g on the AH.
I find this game plays very interestingly on two aspects of the human condition: the desire to get new things and the ability to take anything for granted if it’s around long enough. Enjoy what you can while you have it, but know that in time it will be worthless except as remembrance.
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May 15th, 2008 at 8:18 am
@Haedes
Some people play on under-populated servers where no matter how hard you try, how hardcore you are, how much research you do, how much skill you have, you just can’t keep up with the progression because it would be impossible to organize an entire guild’s worth of people of the right composition who are like-minded.
I guarantee there are thousands of badge-geared tanks out there that are simply BETTER at their class than people pushing Sunwell cause they’re frankly just plain unlucky.
Once you understand how to best gear yourself for specific encounters and have your rotation down pat you can tank any 25-man raid boss with the right level of gear…whether its from a badge vendor or a previous instance.
Besides, staring at boss crotch and making sure you press the correct buttons over and over is not difficult. -_- If you ask me, a heroic Mr. T with 3 merciless DPSer’s, no CC and a crappy healer is harder than tanking any 25-man raid boss.
Calling them “welfare” epics may be applicable to some people, but its not to all. Don’t generalize.
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May 15th, 2008 at 8:19 am
I don’t understand the need/desire to stand out or prove myself other than doing well in the raids for my guildies. As long as I am having fun and I pull my weight in the guild, nothing else matters to me.
The way my guild does loot through EP/GP, and without any decay ( I keep arguing with them about that), I’m better off to skip T4 loot and go for badge gear. It seems like with badge gear you don’t really need to do SSC and TK (although I want to do it for fun not gear) and you can go from Kara/Gruuls/Mags to ZA or maybe further.
It seems the trend is to make all the raids a little easier since the expansion is only months away. I started Wow after BC so I never saw all the level 60 raids. I guess the level 70 man raids will be obsolete after the expansion as well.
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May 15th, 2008 at 8:20 am
“Sorry, but it is true. There is raid content, bosses and trash, that are more unique and more difficult than any 5/10 person instance. In vanilla WoW, certain epics were proof of your capability. I still have that view even in today’s world of casualcraft. I have no ill will toward badge gear or folks having fun. But to compare tank skill in and out of end game raids is laughable.”
This has been gone over before; the individual level of skill required isn’t really much higher in 10-mans versus 25-mans. The increased difficulty comes from the fact that you’re relying on 2.5x more people, and you’re much more likely to have 1+ person make a mistake when there are 25 people than when there are 10 people.
You’re not necessarily more skilled because you can press Shield Block when you see a Shear cast bar, or because you can intervene at a set time, or because you can slam your fear-dance macro when the ground starts rumbling.
The only thing I’d concede that a 25man tank who’s done everything from Molten Core to Sunwell is that he’s seen more encounters, which to me is like job experience, but experience and skill are different things entirely.
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May 15th, 2008 at 8:29 am
Vene…great podcast btw!
I’m a Warrior MT for a small guild who are causal about or raiding…We go to Kara (but haven’t downed Netherspite or Nightbane)…I have pug’d Gruul as an OT once and Mag as MT once. I’ve seen Nalorakk go down twice in ZA and we haven’t quite been able to get Akil’zon down just yet. I’ve been progressively getting better at tanking thanks to sites like this.
When I cashed in those 100 badges to upgrade my Vindicator’s Hauberk for that sweet Badge Breastplate, that was a huge highlight and felt like a real accomplishment. I am half way to getting that sweet Badge Ring too…Shade just won’t give me his
Just adding another perspective to the whole honor/recognition portion of this thread
I have a lot of friends in my guild and will be staying put…probably to the exclusion of seeing 25 mans…but in another couple/three months I’ll have those sweet Badge Legs…can’t wait!
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May 15th, 2008 at 9:03 am
Ya, my example was focused pretty much at the tank that just waltzed into the raid and started making fun of the other tanks. Basically “haha i’m better than you since i have 3 pieces of t4.” Didn’t mean to give the impression that I was uber tank +++++++, but it was my way of telling that tank “psst.. 3 pieces of t4 gear doesn’t make you better”.
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May 15th, 2008 at 10:01 am
“Besides, staring at boss crotch and making sure you press the correct buttons over and over is not difficult. -_- If you ask me, a heroic Mr. T with 3 merciless DPSer’s, no CC and a crappy healer is harder than tanking any 25-man raid boss.”
People seem to have forgotten the original TK attunement before it was lifted and the dungeons were nerfed. Raid tanks do heroics with overzealous dps just as much as anyone.
“The only thing I’d concede that a 25man tank who’s done everything from Molten Core to Sunwell is that he’s seen more encounters, which to me is like job experience, but experience and skill are different things entirely.”
Maybe, but would a poorly skilled tank would continue to receive raid invites and continue to clear content?
“You’re not necessarily more skilled because you can press Shield Block when you see a Shear cast bar, or because you can intervene at a set time, or because you can slam your fear-dance macro when the ground starts rumbling.”
Clarify what makes you skilled then - we’ve seen warriors fail at these things as simple as it may seem; wouldn’t that make them lesser skilled?
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May 15th, 2008 at 11:23 am
@Haedes: There is raid content, bosses and trash, that are more unique and more difficult than any 5/10 person instance.
Okay, and? Just because someone hasn’t see that content doesn’t mean they don’t possess the skills necessary to overcome it successfully.
I play on a low-population server and had to take time off from the game last year when my son was born. Now, there are exactly zero guilds on my server running SSC/TK on a regular basis - so I’ve never seen the content.
Are you telling me that automatically means I’m a lesser-skilled Tank than you? Really?
Sorry, but no.
But to compare tank skill in and out of end game raids is laughable.
You’re getting confused. Nobody is arguing that Tanking raids doesn’t require more skill, we’re saying that just because a Tank hasn’t doesn’t mean they don’t have the skills necessary to do so given the opportunity.
Clarify what makes you skilled then - we’ve seen warriors fail at these things as simple as it may seem; wouldn’t that make them lesser skilled?
Skill is indepedent of individual encounters is essentially the message. Having done TK doesn’t make you a “better Tank,” although it does make you “better at Tanking TK.” The fundamental skills are the same, and a Badge-geared tank can learn those whether or not he runs the older raid content or not:
a) How to properly research and prepare for fights and instances with gear, enchants, consumables, macros, etc.
b) How to maximize threat generation through optimal use of rage and skill rotation.
c) How and when to use survival techniques like Last Stand, Shield Wall, Ironshield and Healing potions.
d) How to effectively tank multiple targets when necessary.
e) How to efficiently refresh shouts, thunderclap and demoralizing shout without sacrificing threat.
etc., etc. These are the things which determine whether a tank is “skilled” or not, and they’re all things that can be learned without experiencing each and every single raid encounter in the game.
So, to reiterate and clarify:
Does tanking an encounter make someone a better at Tanking that particular encounter? Yes.
Does tanking an encounter mean you’re automatically a better Tank than someone who has not? No, of course not.
So to restate my original point, seeing someone in T5/T6 gear doesn’t tell you anything useful about how their fundamental skills compare to someone who geared up using Badges instead. Skill is skill, regardless of where and how you gained it.
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May 15th, 2008 at 12:55 pm
Kerchunk, you are missing my point entirely. Reread my original post. I’m not saying that great tanks exist outside of raiding. What I am trying to express, which I first replied to, was that overcoming more raid content teaches you more about the game and your class through experience. Onyxia made Nefarion easier which made Nightbane simple, etc. How can you say that doesn’t matter? Of course people have tanked Nightbane without doing BWL - but having already done that type of fight you’d have more skill to do it more effectively, faster. It’s ridiculous to say you can’t tell anything useful about the skills of a T5/T6 player compared to a fully badge geared player. Even applying to guild, what do they ask? What gear do you have and what content have you done. Maybe it’s not always correct, but it’s reality.
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May 15th, 2008 at 3:37 pm
@Haedes
I think you are confusing skill with experience. Having experienced a similar encounter before does not impart any particular skill. It imparts knowledge of the strategy, nothing more. And added to that, what if you were the first person to ever tank Nightbane? All your previous experiences would mean nothing strategy-wise since you had no idea going in that the encounter was similar. Experience doesn’t count for much these days to be honest since I can go read the strats for any encounter and memorize them. To me, the skill part doesn’t even come into play until the unexpected happens and the strategy breaks down.
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May 15th, 2008 at 3:42 pm
It was forever ago in this thread and I totally forgot about it until now, but tying shield block to all of your other abilities will result in your screen being spammed with “That ability is not ready yet”. You can get an addon that takes away those error messages, but just because you don’t see them, doesn’t mean they aren’t there. And because they ARE there, whether you see them or not, you are going to experience a diminished frame rate which is going to greatly hinder your threat generation. Its why you are better off deliberately pressing buttons as opposed to mashing.
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Veneretio reply on May 15, 2008 4:34 pm:
You can use an addon, but as easier option is just using the script code provided by blizz, for instance:
#showtooltip Whirlwind
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/use Bloodlust Brooch
/stopcast
/cast Whirlwind
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
/script UIErrorsFrame:Show()
I’ve bolded the 3 lines that hide, clear and show any error code that happens after the fact. That being said, I have no idea how this would impact one’s frame rate. I can say that using such macros in the past didn’t seem to affect my computer’s performance at all.
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Rochelle reply on May 15, 2008 5:48 pm:
I don’t see how adding those lines to every macro is easier than using an addon. But my point is, no matter what, when you push a button, your client does a check to see if it is possible to perform an action and if it is not possible, then the error exists. Whether or not you have taken steps to hide the error is irrelevant because the error IS there. My computer is far from top of the line and I am pretty happy when I get 15 fps during a boss fight that has a lot going on. But if I let myself get a little trigger happy and spam buttons before things are off cooldown, my framerate will drop into the single digits until I remind myself not to be such a scrub and be deliberate and then my framerate goes back up to the mid-teens. And when tanking, when using every GCD matters for threat generation, there is a noticable difference between spamming and not spamming. By tying everything together with a macro, you are getting all the button spam without the carpal tunnel
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admin reply on May 15, 2008 7:00 pm:
15 fps… ouch. I’m always in the 30s.
Khrushchev reply on May 15, 2008 7:33 pm:
Yeah, 15? Wow. I play on a MacBook Pro (laptop) and I maintain between 30 and 50 fps. I don’t use any of the error frame scripts though simply because I don’t care if it says an error on my screen. It’s tiny and way up at the top. I turn off the error voice though.
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May 15th, 2008 at 4:37 pm
@Haedes:
What I am trying to express, which I first replied to, was that overcoming more raid content teaches you more about the game and your class through experience.
I realize that’s your point. I’m saying you’re wrong. Tanking encounters teaches you how to tank those particular encounters well, but you’re not learning some new fundamental technique that’s inaccessible to those who haven’t. The fundamentals are the fundamentals. You don’t learn them by encountering specific bosses.
By your rationale, I could take any random Warrior in trade chat, run him through BT a few times until he has done the fights and has T6 gear and he would automatically be skilled. Do you really think that’s true?
Onyxia made Nefarion easier which made Nightbane simple, etc. How can you say that doesn’t matter?
It’s easy because I’m walking proof. I was a healer pre-BC so I haven’t tanked any old raid content. I hit 70 three months ago on my tank. Yet, I one-shot Tanked Nightbane the first time I encountered him. How? I studied the fight, wrote/keybound/tested my stance-dance macro, made sure my castbar was very visible, and I went in and tanked him using fundamental skills - threat rotation, efficient rage use, boss positioning, etc. I didn’t lack any “skills” necessary to Tank him because I hadn’t seen Onyxia or Nefarion. I had every skill I needed at my disposal.
Incidentally, I also one-shot Prince, High King Maulgar, Gruul, Nalorakk and two-shot Magtheridon (bad clicking, not my fault on the wipe), the first time I MT’d those encounters. I had all the “skills” I needed ahead of time to tank these bosses, and made up for my lack of experience by doing research, watching videos and discussing the encounters with other tanks.
So again, being more experienced does not make you more skilled.
It’s ridiculous to say you can’t tell anything useful about the skills of a T5/T6 player compared to a fully badge geared player.
Why is that ridiculous? Explain.
What gear do you have and what content have you done. Maybe it’s not always correct, but it’s reality.
And if said guild can’t find a geared Tank with experience, what do they do? Recruit a bad or unskilled tank? No, of course not. They find an equally skilled person who can gear up and learn the encounters.
Why is that do you think? Why not take an unskilled player and just run him through to gear him up?
Simple: because given a skilled tank, it’s easy for him to gain gear and experience. Given an unskilled tank, gear and experience isn’t going to help - he’s still going to suck and lose aggro and cause wipes.
Bottom line, gear and experience are things you pick up in instances.
Skill is not.
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May 15th, 2008 at 4:47 pm
Incidentally, I think the fundamental error you’re making is confusing cause and effect.
Skilled Tanks are generally well-geared and progressed far because having skill has allowed them to build a reputation as a reliable Tank which has gotten them into strong guilds who progress through raid content and acquire gear.
In comparison, unskilled Tanks tend to stagnate once they hit the early Heroics, because they don’t have what it takes to progress. Therefore, they don’t get into strong guilds, can’t find reliable groups, and don’t progress.
So, yes, statistically speaking most Tanks in T5/T6 gear will be skilled or else their guilds wouldn’t have continued to allow them to tank. However, they were skilled before they had that gear and saw the content — the skill comes first.
Therefore the raid experience and gear is a result of being skilled - not the other way around.
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Veneretio reply on May 16, 2008 6:56 am:
It’s time to let this part of the discussion end.
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May 16th, 2008 at 5:57 am
Sweet new comment system, Vene. Love the reply ability, and I have RSS so I can tell what posts are new since they will no longer all just be at the bottom.
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May 16th, 2008 at 6:26 am
Kerchunk, you win at taking everything out of context. I guess the folks like myself who’ve been tanking since release know nothing - except all the theorycraft that everyone uses now. Grats on your personal success - by your conclusions you are the best warrior in WoW.
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May 16th, 2008 at 7:22 am
Blizzard doesn’t want BT to become another Naxx. Period. The badge gear eliminates (for the most part) the need to go through T5 content. It is not a stab at those who spent months progressing. Those people still have the satisfaction of knowing they downed Vash, or Kael’thas.
Elitism is the only thing that can explain being pissed off that we non 25-man content goers get “welfare” badge epics.
On another note. I use quickening blade of the prince with executioner, and let me tell you. Threat coming out of my arse compared to KD.
@Vene: LOL @ the guy’s guildie who said cleave is better single target threat. What an idiot. Considering the rage cost is twice as high alone (when using threat spec), yeah that makes sense.
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May 16th, 2008 at 7:28 am
Well its been a fun discussion guys, but I think this thread has gone a little too far. Check back for a new post in 12 hours.
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