Sunguard Legplates vs Unwavering Legguards
Let’s Talk about Trinkets!?
What do trinkets have to do with comparing these two leg pieces? Nothing and perhaps everything.
Sunguard Sextant
138 Armor
21 Defense Rating
35 Dodge Rating
23 Expertise Rating
Icon of Unwavering
10 Stamina
30 Block Rating
59 Block Value
Which trinket would you use? If I make the Sunguard one cost 25 badges more than the Unwavering trinket, does that change your decision? Should the cost of an item even matter to you? Not really.
This is the best way I know to show you the difference between arguably the best Pre-Sunwell Legs in the game and a pair you wear to just muck around on trash.
May 16th, 2008 at 9:43 am
I want those Sunguard legs! Just need 62 more BoJ’s.
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May 16th, 2008 at 10:01 am
So what you’re saying Vene, is that on trash we wear the unwavering legs and bosses where a parry thrash is possible wear the sunguards? Or all bosses in general due to the added avoidance?
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Veneretio reply on May 16, 2008 10:10 am:
On anything that hits even reasonably hard from heavy trash to basically every boss, the Sunguard are simply better.
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Hydrix reply on May 16, 2008 11:28 am:
I sit at 33 expertise in my threat set. Though in my boss set it drops to 22 I believe? So perhaps I could dump a little bit of block value for the expertise. I’ll think about it!
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May 16th, 2008 at 10:16 am
I’d use the pocket watch
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Veneretio reply on May 16, 2008 10:47 am:
LOL how did I not see that comment coming?
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Kavtor reply on May 16, 2008 12:09 pm:
seconding the pocket watch!
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May 16th, 2008 at 10:38 am
LOL, pocket watch…
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May 16th, 2008 at 10:40 am
1/2 my post disappeared? wtf? Anyway, I’d use the sunguard on everything 23 expertise just rocks. Anyone have the math on the difference between 23 expertise and 59 block value for TPS?
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Veneretio reply on May 16, 2008 10:51 am:
The comment system strips out html tags, so it may have been because of that.
In terms of threat, if you have less that 23 expertise skill then 23 expertise rating will be far, far better than 59 Block value. If you have over 23 skill, then it’s a little closer, but I’d still give the nod to the expertise.
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May 16th, 2008 at 11:02 am
Agree completely Vene. I see people picking up the Unwavering Legguards and invariably their excuse is “I just don’t think the Sungguard are worth 25 more badges,” which bogges my mind. A couple nights of Heroics or basically one Karazhan for a T6 quality upgrade? How often do you get to say that these days, if ever?
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May 16th, 2008 at 11:54 am
Congrats Vene, very creative way to illustrate their differences.
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May 16th, 2008 at 12:16 pm
I can’t see any reason to take unwavering over sunguard. Even if you’re capped on expertise on trash, it gives you the option to swap out other pieces.
As for them being arguably the best pre-sunwell legs… my Akama legs have a ton more stam, and my T6 have more avoidance! Certainly a good choice though, just not worth my badges with the gem vendor opening up.
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Veneretio reply on May 16, 2008 12:41 pm:
In the case of Praetorian’s Legguards:
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32263
vs Sunguard Legplates, socketing for Stamina
Praetorian
12 Stamina
43 Parry (1.82% Avoidance)
18 Hit
Sunguard
43 Defense (2.18% Avoidance)
23 Expertise
In the case of T6: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30978
vs Sunguard Legplates, socketing for Set Bonus
T6
101 Armor
24 Agility
41 Parry
42 Block Value
Total Avoidance 2.53%
Sunguard
3 Defense
48 Dodge
23 Expertise
Total Avoidance 2.69%
Seems to me that the Sunguard really sits pretty against both and it all comes down to how much you value the 23 Expertise. Personally, I value it above Stamina and Hit as well as above Block Value and Armor.
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Tankette reply on May 16, 2008 1:19 pm:
This is what I am talking about! Now I know if I buy the Sunguard legs I won’t regret spending the badges when something better drops days later. At best the alternatives are about the same and I won’t be seeing these alternative drop in SSC or ZA.
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Ridlyblade reply on May 17, 2008 7:18 am:
I think here as far as Praetorians vs Sunguard…it really depends on what your current Defense and Expertise are. It’s significantly easier (especially with the new badge gear) to get expertise capped, and I roll Night Elf so no racials here. Before picking up the Girdle of the Fearless (correct me if it’s the wrong name it’s 7 am and i just woke up), i have 31 Expertise when I’m prot and 490 Def. and 105 Hit rating. I’d actually have the breathing room in my tank set, that after the new Badge Tank Belt to use the Praetorians over Sunguard in order to have more hit rating so i can possibly replace Romulo’s Poison Vial to something more tank like (yes, yes i do tank with Romulo’s Poison Vial + Shard of Contempt Sam I am =P)
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Veneretio reply on May 17, 2008 7:28 am:
The Expertise cap varies from boss to boss, but it’s been reported that 57 skill = capped. As a result, 23 Expertise is still giving you more threat that 18 hit.
Ridlyblade reply on May 17, 2008 7:56 am:
Hmm…let me work on how to word this right quick..
True the real no guff Expertise cap would be enough for up to 15% parry depending on the boss, but due to the combat table being a 100 sided die, once you completely remove dodges from your table (the 23 expertise soft cap) as you gain more expertise you only gain the benefit of just reducing parries and not parry + dodge, so it’s starts to suffer from diminishing returns.
23 expertise rating is 5.83 Expertise skill which, Expertise doesn’t work in decimals so really it’s 5 Expertise skill, if you’re already above the 23 expertise skill soft cap, you’re adding a -1.25% Parry.
http://wowwebstats.com/iavz1qek4mung?a=23
That’s from the other night, based on that, I’d take the hit rating. an average of 1% mitigated abilities/auto vs average of 5% misses on abilities/auto.
(if the WWS doesn’t work PM me and i’ll try again)
admin reply on May 17, 2008 12:30 pm:
Yes, once you are passed 23 Expertise Skill then Expertise is equal to Hit Rating in terms of threat. (before that point it’s twice as effective) Thus, 23 Expertise Rating is still > 18 Hit Rating no matter how you slice it.
Ridlyblade reply on May 17, 2008 1:02 pm:
I think we’re at the point of our discussion now where it’s pretty much you prefer granny smith apples and i prefer delicious red apples. Since I’m far enough past the soft cap for expertise with more to come once i get the badge belt, I value stam and hit a bit more until I inch closer to the hit cap where stam and armor will start to pull ahead.
But at the very least it’s nice to have friendly discussions about these types of things to see where some people stand one way or another to better understand the over all conncencus (sp) of the tanking community.
May 16th, 2008 at 12:25 pm
Just to make sure I understand this properly, when you say the Unwaverings have 10 more stam you’re assuming a 15 stam gem in every slot, correct?
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admin reply on May 16, 2008 12:46 pm:
Yup, that’s something I should have clarified.
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Naka reply on May 16, 2008 2:08 pm:
That means Unwavering does actually cost 20 badges more than Sunguard.
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Veneretio reply on May 16, 2008 2:18 pm:
Well keep in mind Sunguard has 2 sockets as well… so it’s more like Sunguard only costs 10 more badges instead of 25. That being said, excellent point and very cool concept to potentially apply to further posts
Naka reply on May 16, 2008 3:03 pm:
Damn, right.. should have double-checked that.
Btw, what is the appropriate amount of expertise to have against trash? I think this post would be a good place to point that out.
May 16th, 2008 at 12:46 pm
I’d like a comparison between them and Black temple leggings, I’ve been wearing unwavering for trash and akama leggings for heavy hitting boss fights and found that to work great, also I happen to have the sunguard leggins which I used until I picked up akama’s legs, I raid 4 times a week so with everything I bought I have 200 badges sitting around still piling up every bt raid.
I personally think you cant go wrong wearing any of em, but a fair comparison needs to be made between sunguard and BT leggings, I not too often see much talk about black temple in these posts regarding loot and I’m sure vene has cleared it by now and should be in sunwell? Am I wrong?
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admin reply on May 16, 2008 12:52 pm:
Scroll up a bit, I actually just made a comparison between the two responding to Kavtor’s comment.
Regarding my progression, I haven’t cleared BT actually. I’m part of a pretty casual guild that raids, (part of the reason I have time to run a site like this with a full time job) we’re through the first 3 bosses on both instances. (ie. the easy ones) I’ve had many opportunities either via transfering guilds or servers to do Sunwell, but I love the guild I’m with and frankly the stuff I enjoy talking about here for the most part has very little to do with progression and far more to do with understanding how to properly analyze.
(This post being a good example of that)
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Kavtor reply on May 16, 2008 1:04 pm:
So, since I can sneak in a reply with out completely derailing the thread, why are you Veneritio half the time, and Admin half the time, even when responding to posts 5 minutes apart?
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Veneretio reply on May 16, 2008 1:14 pm:
LOL I was wondering how long it would be before that came up… it has to do with whether or not I’m logged in to update the site or not. Unnecessarily confusing I must admit.
Tankette reply on May 16, 2008 1:16 pm:
Different persona for handling trash posters vs boss posters?
Veneretio reply on May 16, 2008 1:18 pm:
LOL wait can I change my answer to what Tankette said? (btw you should totally be linking to your blog when you comment Tankette!!!)
May 16th, 2008 at 1:00 pm
Really, the difference between Praetorian, Sunwell, and T6 is minor. They’re all great pieces with a threat stat, and tons of stamina and avoidance. They’re fairly different, but equal enough. They’re all roughly the same ilvl, so it’s just a matter of which suits you gear set and encounter goals the best.
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Veneretio reply on May 16, 2008 1:15 pm:
…as well as how eager you are to blow your badges on prot dps gear and/or money (nether vortexes) instead of tanking upgrades
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Kavtor reply on May 16, 2008 1:55 pm:
Hey, I like my fist set. And ArP ring. And belt. And soon to be PVP badges… spending badges on tank gear is overrated!
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Rochelle reply on May 16, 2008 4:08 pm:
I make the decision based on what matches my other gear. If I wear anything but the T6 legs it will clash and I am not about to let that happen.
May 16th, 2008 at 1:49 pm
Hmm, just testing something here.
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May 16th, 2008 at 1:50 pm
One more time with feeling.
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Veneretio reply on May 16, 2008 2:04 pm:
WOOT - everyone should go check out Tankette’s blog since this post has been derailed.
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Kavtor reply on May 16, 2008 2:17 pm:
I’m not sure whether this being friday before a long weekend, or the new comments format.
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Veneretio reply on May 16, 2008 2:20 pm:
I think the new comment format is going to make commenting in general a whole lot easier so we shouldn’t see as much redundancy (not that there really is a lot to begin with) and it’ll be much easier to follow conversions. For the time being, it’s a whole lot more fun too… I’m sure once the honeymoon phase ends, things won’t seem so scattered like they are today.
Dezdemone reply on May 16, 2008 3:05 pm:
Actually I am having some trouble with the thing, when I type longer than a line I have to hit enter to see what I am typing. Then when I submit it I look like a n00b for having spaces where they shouldn’t be. /sigh. I had to type this comment in notepad then paste it in here.
Veneretio reply on May 16, 2008 3:11 pm:
That’s really odd. Could you screenshot the problem and email it to me? What browser are you using?
Dezdemone reply on May 16, 2008 3:54 pm:
Yep, sent it a couple secs ago.
Dezdemone reply on May 16, 2008 4:39 pm:
Well, I will say on this new comment option it definately seems to be inspiring mini conversations and I bet your comment count and hits to the website are on the rise.
Namthe reply on May 17, 2008 7:51 am:
Have to say I’m less in love with the new comments system for the simple reason that it’s much harder to see which comments are new at a glance without reading through everything again.
Perhaps when Vene gets time he could add some way of flagging new posts?
admin reply on May 17, 2008 12:27 pm:
Agreed, I’m on the case
Rochelle reply on May 16, 2008 4:19 pm:
A fellow Moonrunnerian!
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May 16th, 2008 at 1:54 pm
I’ve been searching your “What gear from Hyjal and BT is an upgrade” thread, and I do not see the Sunguard Sextant nor Icon of the Unwavering anywhere.
I’m beginning to feel that some of these articles are merely to get a laugh. For example, your article claming that Trolls are the worst tanking race is obviously a sham. What next? Maybe you’ll start making things up on your podcast…
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Dezdemone reply on May 16, 2008 3:02 pm:
Nah, they dont exist. This was just Vene’s way of pointing out the differences between the Unwavering Legguards, and the Sunguard legplates. Just saying if the extra stats on either were a trinket, which would you pick.
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Kavtor reply on May 16, 2008 3:19 pm:
Trolling trolls are successful!
Speidel’s in Vene’s guild, and it’s entirely possible that he’s being a little sarcastic. Maybe.
I do want to see an Onslaught trinket though. With a red slot. So I can stuff a dodge spinel in there to irritate the good author.
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Dezdemone reply on May 16, 2008 3:55 pm:
Aw, I got duped. /sad panda… LOL
Rochelle reply on May 16, 2008 4:11 pm:
Nothing quite like using spinels in tanking gear… the casters love it.
Speidel reply on May 16, 2008 5:00 pm:
Indeed :D. A troll comment, and possible foreshadowing
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May 17th, 2008 at 8:42 pm
How about one of these for Stoicism vs. S3 chest?
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May 18th, 2008 at 12:59 am
I am a huge fan of expertise i sit at like 31 Expertise on progressions bosses, and once I know they hit like pansies I bust out the shard of contempt. I think i hit 12% dodge/parry reduction. I know the soft cap is like 6.5% but if its just as good as hit rating and reduces spike damage then why the hell not. I also find it harder to get a lot of hit rating, compared to expertise.
I agree with Thug what about the Chest I am having so much trouble deciding between S3, ZA, and Badge Chest. Seems like avoidance is King in BT and I have been sticking with Badge chest recently.
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Speidel reply on May 19, 2008 2:33 am:
Yea, tough call between the ZA and Badge chest. I think the S3 one is pretty much just restricted to trash mob type of tanking. Personally, I’d take the ZA one over the badge chest for BT tanking, but I think the decision is based on what your overall gear is like. The badge chest, with its huge amount of defense can really open up options in other slots. But I’ll take hit rating over block value any day.
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Morghand reply on May 19, 2008 8:13 am:
Don’t forget the Blacksmithing BOP full upgrade….Bulwark of Ancient Kings
Id love to see this comparison…
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May 18th, 2008 at 10:30 pm
Stoicism and S3 are completely different. Stoicism is far, far better for staying alive, and S3 is far, far better for threat.
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May 19th, 2008 at 8:33 am
What about if you’re not MTing, but just OT? Mainly on trash? Still go Sunguard?
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Kerchunk reply on May 20, 2008 5:32 pm:
I suppose if you want to gear assuming you will ALWAYS be the OT and ALWAYS “mainly on trash,” but I would assume at some point you would want to take on another role so you might as well gear with long-term goals in mind and not pigeonhole yourself into being the trash OT
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Rustyboy reply on May 30, 2008 6:56 pm:
I think it really depends on what other gear you have and what the encounter is. For VR as an example you could use the Sunguards for the extra expertise and stack more threat genenration through other gear especially when your not the MT at that time in the fight, but when you are tanking VR you get the benefit of the extra avoidance etc.
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May 19th, 2008 at 6:48 pm
If it’s just for trash, there are probably better things you can spend 100 badges on.
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May 20th, 2008 at 12:50 pm
I kinda give up on trying to pump my SBV. Now I try to get as much as possible of my Hit/Expertise cap, while trying to stay high on Stam/Def.
Of course, our guild is only in T5 content, which I prolly begin to outgear.
I was planning to get Unwavering leg for thrash/heroic, but I think I’ll just keep the badge and put some DPS gear.
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Speidel reply on May 20, 2008 1:14 pm:
Yea, having lots of block value is fun no doubt, but not missing your shield slam is going to be much more important than just a few hundred more points of damage/threat.
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May 22nd, 2008 at 4:43 pm
Also keep in mind, engineering as plenty of throwable bombs that help warriors to aoe tank. Otherwise you gotta use the easy-throw ones… -_-’
Personally, me thinks the best tanking professions are engineering and enchanting.
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May 30th, 2008 at 6:50 pm
Unwavering for trash when you really want as much rage as possible, I try to keep my avoidance low for trash/most 5 man content. Sometimes I use a shield spike on an old shield for extra threat so high block is good especially when the trash isn’t hitting you that hard and you have 700+ SBV. Hard hitting trash and most boss fights unless its a rage starved the Sunwell ones are way better, so much so that there’s really no question. I would question any tank that decides to go with Unwavering just because the Sunwell ones cost more badges. In the end choice is better than no choice at all.
I’m not in T6 so I generally make sure I have 23 Expertise and then as much hit as possible depending on the encounter.
For trash/easy 5 mans I use threat gear (SBV, Expertise, Hit, Low Avoidance). For hard hitting bosses I use a mitigation set (Stam, Armour, Avoidance, Expertise) and I also throw in a max Avoidance, Stam and Armour set for rare occasions where threat is not an issue but dying quickly is (e.g. Tidalvess SSC).
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June 1st, 2008 at 3:20 pm
Vene, I just want to say, you’ve added a new trinket to my wish list, even if it isn’t real. Spoony bard!
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June 2nd, 2008 at 10:19 pm
sungaurd all the way, i have both the unweaving and sunguard wit 15stam gems, and switch em up and find that the tps given from sunguard is a bit more then the unweaving.
cheers
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June 2nd, 2008 at 10:20 pm
witch i also use the autoblocker and the pocket watch for avoidence set, and stam trinks 51+57stam for stam set… 18k ub hp ftw.
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June 10th, 2008 at 5:11 pm
I see what everybody is saying about the legplates, but for me, my first priority is replacing that great shermanar ring with the sunwell badge ring. The Sunguard legs will be about #2 or 3 on the list with me just getting the S2 shield (of which I hear OP a lot in our guild chats). I’m running ZA more (since we can essentially farm the first boss) so I can get the Jungle stompers.
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