Podcast #5: The Pizza is a Lie
Topics:
- Druids and Paladins
- The V Key
- Tunnel Vision
- Hunter Traps
- The Healer to bring to your 5 man
- And More!
TankingTips.com
A guide to tanking as a warrior in world of warcraft
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June 6th, 2008 at 10:44 pm
The Rogue that gave Vene the wonderful analogy about Warriors being a flat line and Ferals / Protadins having peaks and valley’s was this guy.
Get your references right Vene !
BTW that lunch conversation would have made a great Podcast.
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June 6th, 2008 at 11:35 pm
Yup, I agree about CC and order. Most pulls are ordered to begin with and all you’ve got to do is gather them on you. Anything other than maybe a sheep is going to turn a simple pull into a tricky and fragile situation that you have to carefully unravel. A necessary risk if you have to do it because of the mobs relative to your gear, an unnecessary risk otherwise.
What bugs me about the majority of CC-DPS is that they like doing this planned CC that actually makes the pull messy, and don’t use their abilities during the fight to make it simpler. If a mob tries to summon minions or channel spells, it should be silenced. If a mob is loose from a LoS pull, it should be sheeped or kited. If a mob is going for the healer, it should be trapped, blinded, etc. If it’s running around it should be frozen. You rarely find CC-DPS who use these abilities to make dealing with the pull easier.
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Valize reply on June 7, 2008 12:07 am:
I totally agree with your last sentence, well said.
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Bacara reply on June 7, 2008 7:52 am:
I love hunters who use Misdirect aggressively during pulls and rogues who toss out their Blind. It’s simply a wonderful reduction in time during 5-mans.
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bosephus reply on June 7, 2008 2:39 pm:
As much as marking targets is great, I wonder whether it stifles the improvisation skills of cc’ers. ‘Not my mark, so not my problem.’
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Machus reply on June 7, 2008 4:21 pm:
We used to Detect Magic on the orcs in UBRS dammit, and that was the true way (from my previous life as a mage).
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Absitively reply on June 8, 2008 6:53 pm:
It won’t kill good ccers.
My group I normally run with, its amazing how many times when a mob heads for the healers, it ends up sheeped/blinded/seduced all at the same time.
Obviously, I can’t seduce 2 mobs at once, but, deathcoil is always another option too as a warlock.
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June 7th, 2008 at 2:46 am
Thanks for making me hungry at 3am.
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June 7th, 2008 at 5:26 am
Nice podcast, well as both a t5 priest and warrior i can say that i still find it hard to get my guild and others to except the whole im going to TC and break your CC. Even though they are expecting me to tank 4 NPC’s.
Just found Tanking Tip’s and i gotta say love the site. just what i was looking for.
Sickone (Blackrock)
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June 7th, 2008 at 6:31 am
and another one is why mages cant just sheep the mobs where they have been standing before the pull,why cant he just think a bit when he see the tank using hes gun with a 2.80 sec cast and just start casting immediatly!!!
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Orenus reply on June 7, 2008 7:54 am:
One of my guild mages does that every time, and it makes pulls so much smoother. Unfortunately, he’s the only one I’ve seen do that.
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June 7th, 2008 at 8:41 am
I’m sorry vene but your soooooooooooo wrong about trap. Its one of the best CC’s you can get (i agree that the hunters by large can’t trap but even getting something trapped for one duration is better than a seduce), its doesn’t have a dispel type, its works on any type of mob and it lasts at least 20 seconds before a mob can break out of it. Okay it has a 30 second cooldown but hunters can kite also. hooooowever seduce lasts 15 seconds, its dispellable, it relys on warlocks actually pressing a button on the pet bar and it has a 1.5 second cast.
So at best your trap is running around every 1 min and at best your seduce is running around every 15, this to me is not order.
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Rochelle reply on June 7, 2008 8:55 am:
To be sure, Freezing Trap is absolutely dispellable - ask any hunter that has played in arena against a priest or paladin. The biggest problem with seduce is that when it ends, the mob is going to go straight for the succubus which is extremely squishy. So you basically have 15 seconds of CC and then no more because the CCer is dead.
And of course there is the fact that no warlock will ever have a succubus out in the fire place. A UA lock will have an imp for blood pact and dark pact, a demonolgy lock will have a felguard and a destro lock will have demonic sacrifice and won’t have a pet out at all.
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Absitively reply on June 8, 2008 6:58 pm:
So not true… a good warlock will have a succi out if its needed for CC, regardless of spec. They will also cast searing pain and hit seduce at the same time.
Then the ‘lock as aggro, not the Succy, not the healer.
Then, you can treat seduce just as a hunter would their traps. Move from your mob, reseduce as needed. And really, having a /focus macro removes any need for clicking a pet bar.
If you see a good warlock do it, its a pretty and amazing thing.
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Rochelle reply on June 9, 2008 7:11 am:
I suppose a typo I made makes my statement a bit unclear. A warlock will never have a succubus out in the FIRST place. If you ask them to seduce something they will grumble about soul shards and then pull it out. If the warlock were to try your idea of casting searing pain on a mob in a raid to get aggro instead of a healer in case of an early break, then the warlock gets 2-shot instead of the succubus. It might work well in 5-mans but vene is talking about raid mobs where they kill cloth wearers.
Veneretio reply on June 9, 2008 7:31 am:
Actually I kinda was talking about 5 mans. In raids, you really only use sheep and banish for the most part and thus it’s kinda boring to talk about :/
Rochelle reply on June 9, 2008 9:55 am:
Who uses CC in 5 mans?
Talisman reply on June 9, 2008 3:17 pm:
I tend to alter my use of CC based on the rest of the group. If it’s a guild run with high DPS, high heals, low stupidity, I just mark a skull and cross and run in like a crazy mofo. Crappy pugs call for CC because the +800 heals pvp specced healer goes oom in the 3 minutes it takes the dps to get 4 mobs down.
Or maybe I’m just bitter because the heroic SV pug I did last night wiped 3 times on the first boss…
Talisman reply on June 9, 2008 3:23 pm:
I hit Submit too soon
And yes you’re right, locks always grumble about being asked to whip out the succubus and she always seems to die after the first seduce breaks. I’ve seen maybe 2 locks in my whole life who managed to chain-seduce reliably. It’s actually rarer than finding a hunter who can chain-trap.
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Ghost reply on June 20, 2008 12:04 pm:
warlock can recall succ to cancel seduce, then immediately reapply it, with the lag and stuff it usually reduces the gap to like 1 sec or so instead of 1.5 sec. Also a good lock make use of fear then seduce again. It really depends on who’s playing the lock, there is no compensation for a bad player. Just remember lock can cc all mobs except undead, fairly reliably.
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June 7th, 2008 at 9:21 am
My opinion…
Traps are ok…especially if the Hunter is smart and has spec’d to Smart Traps. If you’re a hunter who mainly runs 5 mans and doesn’t spec to improve your traps, you fail before you even join the group, in my opinion. Even if you’re a raiding hunter, you should spec for better traps. I, personally, like the challenge of dealing with my target(s) all the while watching the trap to see if it breaks…keeps me on my toes.
Seduce on the other hand…UGH. The whole Huntard thing pales in comparison to Warlushes who can’t realize that after the first seduce, they continually have to back up their pet so that the 1.5 second CC can get off before the mob stomps the Succubus completely out in 2 hits. It’s bad enough that Locks are squishy…and their pets are 5 times worse. At least a hunter pet can viably hold pain off the hunter for a few seconds while the hunter’s trap recharges, or they can get off a scatter shot or something. I’ve run into maybe a handful of reliable seducers in my time…and a ton more of reliable trappers.
Just my two cents.
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Garaddon reply on June 7, 2008 6:56 pm:
I have to disagree, my problem with your post is that I don’t believe you have played a hunter. Improving your traps is good, I agree but hunters have one purpose, and one purpose alone in this game and that is to pewpew.
The best spec to accomplish this by far and away is the Hunters Beastmastery 41 / Marksmanship 20. Not really enough for the traps.
But I digress, I do agree that traps are a bad crowd control. However I really do not find Seduce to be any better either, and if I have crowd control, unless its some goofy thing like a 25 minute SP run or something like that (That was a blast!) then I do tend to want to use it.
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Kavtor reply on June 8, 2008 9:27 am:
Lots of hunters pewpew as survival, since it’s a great raid buff build. And survival hunters have a fabulous amount of CC.
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bondetaamp reply on June 9, 2008 3:28 am:
If I have understood things correctly, a survival build needs pretty good gear to be dps viable. Not T6 or anything ridiculous, mind, but good enough gear that 5-mans will be out geared.
A BM spec will pretty universally outperform an SV spec in greens and blues and even with good gear the extra group buff from SV won’t get close to the BM buff for a 5-man party, unless the gear is extremely good and the party is extra heavy on physical dps.
And, really, while the extra trap options afforded by SV are nice, they are not necessary at all. My BM hunter alt has never had any problems keeping mobs chain trapped in 5-mans with 2/5 Beastlord and some macros.
Kerchunk reply on June 9, 2008 1:25 pm:
@Garaddon: Improving your traps is good, I agree but hunters have one purpose, and one purpose alone in this game and that is to pewpew.
This is precisely the sort of attitude which gives a bad reputation to both Seduce and Trap as CC. Sorry, and don’t take this as a personal attack but rather a general statement about the game, but if you don’t think CC is an important part of your role as a Warlock or Hunter then you’re a bad Warlock or Hunter. Bottom line.
When you are assigned a CC target, that’s your first priority. Simple threat mechanics should tell you that the CC mob is a far greater threat to the safety and stability of the group than the one you’re currently DPSing - and therefore should be given higher priority in terms of what you’re focusing on.
You think anybody gives a damn that you’re doing an extra 5% more DPS when the healer is dying every other pull to one of your dropped Traps? Think again…
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June 7th, 2008 at 10:15 am
Seduce is better than trap. As a Warlock main, warrior alt, and hunter alt, I can tell you this. Like Vene said, hunter traps require that mob to be brought way far away from group usually. If a hunter trap is resisted, your problem is now probably 30+ yards away from where you’re tanking the rest of the mobs, whereas a seduce breaking is a problem in your immediate area.
I can get 3 seduces off with absolutely no problems. Cast the first like usual. Move away from my succy and cast searing pain on the mob as seduce breaks, recast seduce as the mob runs towards me. (If you have enough room, you can repeat this infinitely). If room is scarce, deathcoil, then reapply seduce. If it’s taking you longer than 45 seconds to secure the pull enough to be able to tank the seduce target, you have problems.
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servognome reply on June 8, 2008 9:56 pm:
After the initial seduce, your method at best isn’t much different than what a hunter does. The mob will be running around after you in the heart of the group until you can get the CC reapplied.
The key difference is that your succy can get killed.
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Speidel reply on June 9, 2008 2:37 am:
“After the initial seduce”… That’s the whole point of this topic. If seduce breaks, or my succy dies, the mob has to run THROUGH the tank. If trap breaks or resists, the warrior has to turn around, find the mob, and then take extra damage from having his back turned the other mobs.
Also if the warrior is thunderclapping at the start like a good boy/girl, the seduce target should never reach the group and always within the tank’s range. Whereas the trap target has to be moved away from the tank to be CC’d.
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Narzy reply on June 10, 2008 6:42 am:
the range on TC is what? 6 yard radius?
The way you’re making it sound is like the hunter has to pull the mob 200 yards away to CC it, and that the hunter stays right next to it the entire time. if hunter traps at point A in the 10 yard circle around the group of mobs, he should move to point B, on the complete opposite side of the circle and then the mob does the same thing it does to a warlock after seduce is up. You must not play with smart hunters then…
Kachra reply on June 12, 2008 4:44 am:
The thing that bothers me the most with hunter traps is actually just overcoming my instinct to shield slam a mob that’s running somewhere else. Most of the time hunters have to trap behind you, which means there’s a mob that looks like it’s gunning for my healer from the start of the pull. Even when I’ve marked it for a trap I still sometimes find myself taunting it and devastating because I’m reflexively trying to protect my healer.
I especially dislike ‘helpful’ hunters who trap things when I haven’t asked them to. Unless it’s an add or something that’s about to beat on a clothie; pulling aggro on purpose just to trap it really throws me for a loop. If I don’t know why a mob is running away from me, I’m definitely gonna get it back. I’d rather stop building threat on a dps target and let the rogue tank it (and possibly die), than let a mob make a successful break for my healer.
Vrathmat reply on June 12, 2008 8:06 am:
A few times in the past, I’ve liked to having hunters drop a trap just so I can have the option of dragging an add into one if things get a little chaotic and other cc fails.
June 7th, 2008 at 11:57 am
I feel that hunter traps are fantastic - when placed upon other CC’d mobs. Example -
Sheep’d or seduced mob. Throw a trap under it - now you have a frozen sheep in love.
It’s basically insurance. Either put it under your healer or put it on a CC’d mob you are worried about breaking.
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Talisman reply on June 9, 2008 8:32 pm:
Best I’ve seen was a frozen sleeping sheep. That thing wasn’t going ANYWHERE!
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Narzy reply on June 10, 2008 6:44 am:
bad idea to put multiple unnecessary CC on a mob that has CC already
cause even though it has 5 CC on it… 1 point of dmg breaks all 5 CC and now you dont have any way to re-CC it.
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June 7th, 2008 at 12:34 pm
CC is for the birds. In my raids the only CC we use is sheep. And if somehow a sheep gets broken early, it gets feared while the mage resheeps it. We rarely have more than two mages in the raid so we sheep two and just throw tanks at everything else. And we generally have 3 tanks in the raid which means we can handle pulls of 8 mobs without breaking a sweat. Any tank worth raiding with can manage two mobs and any healer with half a brain can keep a tank up through two trash mobs. The only exceptions are the big demon pulls in BT where we use banish instead of sheep.
Trap, seduce, whatever. A tank is the most reliable CC.
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Talisman reply on June 9, 2008 3:27 pm:
“A tank is the most reliable CC.”
/signed
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Zakalwe reply on July 8, 2008 11:37 am:
In my former guild, we began occasionally applying a philosophy of CC known as FITE: F**k It, Tank Everything. I think it was coined really early in TBC when we finally had enough people with Kara keys, and we had started working on Moroes. We had only one Priest and she died to the first Garrote, and the bloody Ret Paladin add kept breaking my traps, so I had to do a lot of kiting, and not a lot of DPS.
Our raid leader just threw up his hands and said: “Aw, you know what? F**k it! TANK EVERYTHING!” I don’t think we used any CC but the occasional Shackle on Moroes after that.
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June 7th, 2008 at 4:04 pm
My main is a warlock, so I’ll talk about Seduce a little more and how, as a tank, I can make it an effective CC in instances by using a very simple tip.
Unlike Polymorph, Shackle or Fear, Seduce is a channeled spell for 15 seconds (can be up to 20 secs if talented), with a 1.5 second cast time to start the channel. The downside to it being a channeled spell is that you can’t “re-seduce” in the middle of it being seduced. If you press the Seduce command again, Succubus will break her channeling, and then start the 1.5 second cast again. Sometimes you’ll see mages resheep a mob before it actually breaks (I often see mages resheep a sheeped mob when I’m picking up the next target). Seduce, because it is a channeled spell with a cast time, can’t do this. Once it breaks, reseducing can take up to 2-2.5 seconds which is why, if you’ve noticed, Seduce takes longer to reapply meaning the mob is running around for more time.
The problem with this 2-2.5 second time that the mob is coming around is that it’s likely going to run for the Succubus and one shot it in that time. Succubus dying is a big reason Seduce has a bad reputation along with it breaking early (it really doesn’t break any earlier than other CCs). A smart warlock will use Curse of Shadows on the seduced mob before it gets seduced for a couple reasons. One, he will take aggro so when the Seduce breaks, the mob won’t go and gimp the Succubus. And two, Curse of Shadows lowers spell resistances so the partial resist checks (don’t worry, I won’t get into it lol) make it less likely that Seduce breaks.
Unfortunately, not many warlocks are smart or competent enough to use Curse of Shadows on the seduced mob. What I do as a tank if we do happen to use seduce is when I pull, I shoot the mob that is getting seduced. When it breaks, it will go towards you and not the Succubus, allowing a safe reseduce if needed.
TL;DR version: Read that last paragraph and Rochelle speaks the truth.
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June 9th, 2008 at 8:04 am
Finally got a chance to listen.
1 - Druid healers rule in 5 mans. Just don’t die.
2 - warglaives definitely drop when you do great TPS on Illidan.
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June 9th, 2008 at 8:27 am
If you’re a fan of putting health bars up (and I totally agree that it can be a great aid to situational awareness), take a look at Aloft, an Ace-based addon which allows you to customize exactly what shows in the overhead bars and how they’re configured. I only started using it recently (mostly for Hyjal trash) and love it.
Anybody who is interested should check it out here: http://www.wowace.com/wiki/Aloft
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June 9th, 2008 at 8:56 am
I
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June 9th, 2008 at 10:01 am
I love listening to these while I’m leveling an alt or doing my daily fishing/cooking quests
Thanks Vene
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June 9th, 2008 at 10:06 am
I didn’t have time to listen to the whole thing until just now and the end reminded that I haven’t made a huge wall of text reply to anything lately. I gotta work on that, but its a team effort. I need you to post something contentious Vene so I can go to town.
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June 9th, 2008 at 10:15 am
Do you know how elitist you all sound with the ‘Who uses CC?” remarks? Maybe people who aren’t in all T5/T6 gear and content? Maybe people who are still learning how to play their class? Maybe fury warriors who have respec’d to satisfy a guild need for tanks? Maybe new level 70 tanks who haven’t made it through Vene’s fantastic “I Just Hit 70″ gear guide and still wear greens and will DIE with 3-4+ melee mobs smacking him around? People who, because of a limiting guild, have to PUG 5-mans, and so can’t rely on the people they group with to be skilled, capable players?
Many of the comments here have greatly disappointed me in that respect. I mean, the suggestion that marking targets will stifle the skills of the CCers? Come on. So we shouldn’t mark? Right.
It’s been interesting to read the thoughts on seduce by people who play warlocks. That’s some good perspective gained. But me personally, I still prefer trap. But I cringe when I see a hunter who hasn’t pointed through Survival far enough to get Trap Mastery 2/2 and I’ve been known to tell them so. If I knew their spec ahead of time (talking PUGs here), I’d have grabbed another mage instead!
It’s been mentioned before (pretty sure in Podcast 1 or 2, but my memory fails me at the moment) how a tank often trains their DPSers and can kind of even teach them how to play THEIR class. And we’ve talked so much about leadership. Why can’t we all make the jump, and when we see someone using CC in a way that we don’t like, TELL THEM HOW TO DO IT! Without yelling, of course. =) I’ve noticed greatly, that being a fairly skilled tank lends weight to your words of advice.
Sorry for my rant-is post. =)
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bosephus reply on June 9, 2008 10:29 am:
With my comment above, in no way did I say ‘don’t mark targets’. I just wondered aloud whether by assigning responsibility it allows cc’ers to snooze. There have been many times for me in a pug where a CC breaks and there’s no blind or sheep or anything. Good cc’ers will stay on top of it, but the difference between a good cc’er and a mediocre player takes time and experience. I was just wondering whether marking targets stifles that learning curve.
But you’re right, tanking is a team sport, and communication is key.
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Spaz reply on June 9, 2008 10:48 am:
Fair enough, but leaving the suggestion out there may bring people to follow it to it’s logical conclusion. I did that for them, playing devil’s advocate, to try to point out why that perception can be harmful. Marking will not make a bad player worse, or a good player better. A good player knows his/her role, and how to fill it. I just don’t see assigning responsibility as a bad thing. Without assigning responsibility, no one has any. Two mages may try to sheep the same target. A hunter who does happen to live up to their stereotype won’t trap anything, because there was no marking and s/he didn’t know what to trap.
And yeah, it takes time and experience to become a good player, but what are we all doing here? Learning from each other. So CCers may be better off learning from others as well. So we should help them out.
Again, we’ve talked about training our DPSers. Leadership. Vene’s last article was titled AOE Tanking: It Really Is Your Fault. Maybe the next one should be titled Bad CC: It Really Is Your Fault.
And just to be a jerk, lol, I’m gonna quote him:
“Taking responsibility is the first step towards becoming a stronger player.”
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Spaz reply on June 9, 2008 10:51 am:
And yes, I know how that quote sounds like it SHOULD be applied to the CCer, but I’m changing it and using it for my own purpose. Taking responsibility for the entire group is something the tank does. Bad CC is something WE need to step up and correct.
Narzy reply on June 10, 2008 6:53 am:
do you remember back in the day before 2.whatever when we didnt have marks? and only used vent for raids? I do… I still play with some of the people I played with back then… we still dont mark. it doesnt take a genius to let the tank grab stuff then pull it away and CC it shortly afterwards…
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Vrathmat reply on June 9, 2008 10:55 am:
I certainly can’t go into heroics with no CC. I won’t even go into normal MgT without it. My server is of lower-pop, and I just can’t find the healers that can handle it - the few that can are never online when I need them.
Not using CC is just a bragging right, much like never using taunt. But just because it’s often used incorrectly is no reason to stop using it completely. Throwing away perfectly good tools is just plain silly unless you have a group that really is over-geared.
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Rochelle reply on June 9, 2008 3:23 pm:
Sarcasm + internet = “rant-is post”.
But since we are already throwing around the ‘elitist’ tag, I might as well make it official: If you are unable to stay alive with a couple mobs in an instance beating on you, or if you are still learning your class/role and will fail without CC, then maybe you should try an easier instance.
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Talisman reply on June 9, 2008 3:48 pm:
It’s a little harsh to say try an easier instance if you fail without CC. 5-mans are tuned to be used with a little CC and you can’t expect people in all blue gear to be experts at 4-mob multi-tanking.
Depends largely on which instance as well. I once did a CC-less heroic UB and smashed it to pieces, then we went to heroic MT and got hammered because once you’re past I think the 2nd boss a lot of the mobs have agro-wiping stuns/blinds etc. I don’t care how good a tank you are, you can’t hold 4 mobs off the healer when you’re blinded.
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Rochelle reply on June 9, 2008 4:21 pm:
I was being overly abrasive to demostrate that Spaz was being overly sensitive. This little corner of the thread kinda spawned from a comment I made in jest - ‘who uses CC anyway’.
I was only half joking the second time though.
Spaz reply on June 9, 2008 5:02 pm:
Most people know that sarcasm can be misinterpreted on the internet and may be kind enough to add a
to make sure the tone of their message gets across the way you intended.
And for my part, I’ll try to better proofread my posts so that rant-ish post does not become “rant-is post” again.
I do have to admit a certain amount of fascination when I see how my own words are taken. While I was unsettled by some of the posts above, I was not personally offended.
I, myself, use CC. Yes. It’s a tool at my disposal and I take advantage of it. I also don’t die with mulitple mobs hitting me unless the healer happens to DC right then. I’ve had that happen and it sucks. More than anything, I was trying to make a point. But instead, it seems that it was assumed that I was describing my own situation. I wasn’t.
And while I am, admittedly, a sensitive person, the way that I speak sometimes makes me come off as even MORE sensitive than I am, or sensitive ABOUT something that I’m not. (Why do you think my nickname is Spaz? :)) Just as you APPEAR to have been sensitive to / offended by the use of the term elitist. I meant no personal offense to Rochelle or anyone else. I simply gave my take on the tone of the comments being offered up, and still managed to stay a little on-topic.
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Machus reply on June 10, 2008 4:19 am:
Don’t know if it’s elitist, but the ability to tank without CC is definitely a matter of gear. Tanking without CC is far easier - if you have the mitigation and threat. Like any tank I was able to tank normal instances without CC, and hated having to use CC in early heroics. Necessary to avoid being two-shot in blues, but much more stressful. Gradually with better gear I was able to go without CC in SP, SH, and eventually (with hundreds of badges worth of gear) anywhere but MgT. The point I want to make here is ONCE you have the gear not to need CC, take the plunge and don’t use CC for that particular instance. Your tanking will be more fun and more reliable.
Another bugbear about CC is the groups where we have one rogue, or something, and they go and CC one mob out of four. Great! What am I to do with this mob? I’ll take 25% less damage but after a few seconds I have to stop tanking the pack, run over, target the mob that’s going for the healer, taunt, hope the pack is still on me, and then either re-target the skull or switch the skull over. Oh forget it! I just shoot the sapped mob.
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Dahler reply on June 10, 2008 1:13 pm:
That’s where the line Vene was talking about comes into play. You’re watching the sapped mob and can roughly guess when he will break, he’ll come running straight for the healer when he comes up. And you are (of course) standing right between him and your healer, ready to taunt, shield slam, etc. to have him replace the one or 2 mobs your dps should have already killed by that point.
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June 9th, 2008 at 1:13 pm
CCing. I don’t know about the hunter trap being absolutely terrible. Its not a totally reliable form of cc, but in my experiences, it is on the level as the succy. the succy seduces, the seduce breaks, the succy gets hit, the succy seduces after maybe 50% of its life gets taken, then some rogue or dps warr cleaves or wws and breaks it, the succy gets hit some more and dies and i’m running around trying to control chaos since the succy is dead. In addition, nobody heals a succy if it gets hit. effectively, its a weaker hunter that is trapping with no heals being tossed on it. Perhaps it will work in regulars, but i’m not confident in it in heroics. Like somebody else mentioned before, i’ll grab a rogue or a mage over those two if i were pressed with a decision. Unfortunately, since my server is also lo-pop, i’m usually pressed to taking a terrible cc combination.. So, I have to improvise.
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June 9th, 2008 at 1:54 pm
@Veneratio: I think a big part of the reason that people believe Trap to be superior is that it’s simply an easier CC to be “mediocre” at. Seduce takes practice - practice that the average Warlock doesn’t get, either because they don’t trust Seduce themselves or because the groups they run with don’t trust it.
That said, I fully agree that if you can manage to find a Warlock who can Seduce properly and reliably, it is far and away a superior form of CC to trap.
As a former Warlock turned Tank I know two things:
a) Seduce is a great form of CC regardless of how much a Warlock whines about it.
b) I don’t like the way Trap affects my pulls. As you say, it adds chaos where there should be order - planting a 0 threat mob in the worst possible position (out of my reach, close to the healer, etc.).
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Veneretio reply on June 9, 2008 2:42 pm:
I think the difference is in play style. If you are aggressive early in the pull with getting aggro on all targets… seduce isn’t an issue. I like CC I can break and can be reapplied. I like CC to all be in the same area to make situational awareness easier.
CC is a convenience and the difference between Seduce and Trap is Trap just isn’t convenient. It’s a great safety net to place back by the party… I should have gave it props for that, but Seduce is so much more flexible. I didn’t even mention the fact that Trap is a nightmare to use on ranged mobs of any kind whereas Seduce is simple for that. Not to mention… try Trapping something someone else has aggro on already… ugh.
In the end, we all have our preferences. I’ve got years of experience and admittedly years of bias too to back up my knowledge base. I play with fantastic warlocks and hunters, but they both are a slave to the mechanics of the game and this is the truth of the game the way I know it.
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Talisman reply on June 9, 2008 8:40 pm:
“Not to mention… try Trapping something someone else has aggro on already… ugh”
This is where paladin tanks used to #$%* me to no end, when they mark something to be trapped and then their damn holy frisbee bounces off it, there’s not way you can pull it off before it hits consecrate and then holy shield threat etc. I had to educate a few paladins about this in the past.
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Vrathmat reply on June 10, 2008 5:51 am:
lol @ holy frisbee
June 9th, 2008 at 1:56 pm
as a tank, and a hunter alt, i´d agree with Rochelle. Tanks are the best CC ever ( But they die, just as Succi ). I´m also a BM hunter ( 41/20 no points in SV. I´m a dps, not a trapper )
That said, i think traps and seduce are both poor cc, and some of us still gotta rely on them. I have no problems in retrapping, it´s pretty easy if you are a skilled player. A little anticipation, and it´s done. So, as a group leader ( tank ), you can mark the trap mob before everything else, so your hunter can put down the trap, and start consuming his CD on the next trap. I read a very nice idea, that i´ve never used before as a hunter. Always place a trap under your priest. That can help a lot. Thanx. And my current goal is to teach every single huntard in my guild to use MD in the most aggressive way possible. When im playing my hunter my MD is always on CD. Hunters are threat masters, we can manage threat at will. Thats teh cool thing about hunters. Aggressive MD´s are the best thing a tank can have. MD + multi-shot + distracting + aimed. that will glue skull on teh tank, and make teh whole group attack the tank. How easy can it be?? Another clever thing to do as a hunter, place a freezing trap ( the slowing effect one ) between your ranged and your tanks. it will help everyone.
@Spaz = if you are willing to be a tank, and still havent got the Vene´s I just hit 70 guide, get it, Stop everything you are doing and get it. You simply need it, so you can start to have fun.
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Hao reply on June 9, 2008 2:27 pm:
all i can say to this is.. I’m glad my alt is a 70 frost mage. I answer almost all needs for CC in heroics. Well almost.
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Spaz reply on June 9, 2008 4:44 pm:
I have used that guide and have made it beyond. I was making a point, more than anything. I found this site in trying to learn more about tanking and to improve myself. While the blog and comments section have seemingly become a way for people who are familiar to each other (if only through the blog) to discuss game mechanics and such, I just don’t feel that people should lose sight of the fact that many new people who stumble upon Vene’s fantastic site may NOT know what they’re doing yet, to the degree of the T5/T6 people, and may take “sarcastic comments” as gospel.
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June 10th, 2008 at 6:19 am
As an ex-hunter, it amazes me how bad so many players are at trapping, you need to chain trap a mob and dont have clever traps then stick on a couple of pieces of dungeon set 3 to reduce your trap time by 4 secs, have trouble puling a caster silence shot him or run up to it scatter shot and lay the trap at his feet or LoS pull him, need to place a mob in a particular place, park your pet where you want him put the trap in front of him then misdirect your pet, if the trap breaks then you dont have a mob ontop of you, finding a good hunter might be hard but finding a warlock who actually wants to use his sucubus for anything other than sacrificing is near impossible
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Sunderwear reply on June 10, 2008 6:55 am:
That’s a good point. If you’re running with a 0/21/40 lock (most common PvE spec) and a hunter, you should probably prioritize trap over seduce because the lock does 15% more damage with his pet sacrificed.
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Darraxus reply on June 10, 2008 7:25 am:
I agree. My tank is my main, but I also have a Destro Lock. I usually do far and away the most DPS in my runs, and without sacrificing the Succi, I am gimping my DPS. I usualyl run with guild Hunters, so even if I am running with a lock I never ask them to pull out their Succi for CC. I would rather have the Imp’s stam buff to be honest.
If you are going to grab a warlock and know that you are going to need a decent amount of CC, do yourself a favor and pick up a mage and a rogue.
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June 10th, 2008 at 8:37 pm
Just glancing over the comments (instead of studying for an exam, procrastination ftw!).
Vene, I must admit I thought you were talking out of your arse when listening to the podcast. But reading these comments I’m beginning to come around to your view on seduce. The locks I run with aren’t used to using it, and I might start suggesting to them the methods mentioned here. It took one good hunter to teach me how to mark & explain the chain trap method before I could assist other hunters in how to do it. Reading up on how to chain seduce might be enough to assist the locks I run with.
I’ve been in too many dungeons watching the succy get 1 shotted to trust locks. Might be time to re-evaluate that!
However I take offense to your notion that “tanks who don’t love perfect order aren’t good tanks and must have played another class for too long”. My first ever character, which is still my main, is an Orc prot warrior. And while I am a fan of CC, there’s times when all planned CC goes out the window and chaos reigns (sometimes from poor luck, others from poor players). I find those times made me a better tank than when everything goes perfectly, being able to shift from a perfectly executed plan to thinking on the fly, what mobs I need to acquire first without killing myself or the group.
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admin reply on June 10, 2008 9:18 pm:
I agree they make you a better tank and you learn from it, but it’s not something you should want to happen is my point. It’s like putting your hand on a burner. You’ll burn your hand and you’ll learn from it, but you certainly shouldn’t want to do this over and over again.
I must admit though that I was overly dramatic about the whole point, but that’s kinda just how I get when I get excited
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Azgrimm reply on June 11, 2008 1:19 am:
Fair point. I was just getting riled from how you said it in the podcast. It must be a tank thing “I’m used to it this way so it must be the best way”. Rarely ever correct, but it certainly makes discussion more fun. And it helps generate comments about the podcast! Keep them coming.
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June 11th, 2008 at 12:55 pm
TankingTips.com Podcasts now available on iTunes.
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June 16th, 2008 at 4:24 pm
Regarding the point that ‘You won’t see “the other tanks” tanking high level content’ Thats frankly untrue.
You used Fathom Lord Karathress as an example that a Warrior is perfect for. May I suggest you watch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mrc1ivr48R4
And see how a Paladin can tank FLK & all his adds at the same time?
Paladin tanks don’t compete with Warriors, we form a third of a well balanced tanking team with Warriors and Druids. I think its time we all moved away from the position that one tank class is generally better than another, its clearly wrong.
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July 16th, 2008 at 3:16 am
arent we about due for another pod cast Vene? One topic you could elaborate on is when the resto druid in your raid / group innervates the tank.
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July 18th, 2008 at 2:56 pm
Nice podcast. I like the way you ended up the tank comparison, and I would say the same thing goes for druid tanks - druids can tank any fight! Sure, some would work better than others for different classes, but after playing a druid tank for a fairly long time, I havent yet found a fight I couldn’t tank.
A lot of us favor druids because of their flexibility - dps like a rogue and tank like a warrior with one talent spec. Yes, I have empirical evidence that this is possible
Warriors are specialized; druids are hybrids. But in a 25man, there are so many complex factors at play, constantly changing, that its very hard to insist that only certain classes can play certain fights - thats the joy of MMO.
Also, I wish more wow players would make a very clear distinction between the mechanics of a class as programmed by blizzard - which cannot be changed - and the person operating the controls. In my experience, that always makes the biggest difference in success, not the game mechanics, or even the gear.
So yes practice, practice, practice and you’ll be a great tank, no matter what your class.
Also, Blizzard’s design philosophy is to allow many options; not to force players to do it ONE and only one way. But… the insecurities of players lead to endless community discussions about needing the “right” tank for a particular fight. Kaplan commented once that when he logs on and sees people insisting in LFG on certain classes for an instance - well, he says they never designed the instance that way. But we all get into ruts.
Haha, I’m really careful not to break a CC until I want to. If I can tank all mobs at the same time, I wont mark a CC at all. I wont mark a CC and then break it prematurely. Have you ever dpsed with a tank who doesnt care about your CC? tbh, I think you’re a bit of a prima-donna tank-dude, and I’m not sure I’d enjoy dpsing with you
(I hope you dont take that the wrong way, coz I kinda like your style too)
btw, the 5 man druid healing thing is BS. 5 mans are easy with any healing class. Once you start raiding that is - simply because the players are skilled and competent. Once again, who is the player pressing the keys?! Is he drunk? Is he watching tv? On the phone? Surfing porn? An arrogant loner 12year old? Come one, dont be so bigoted about certain class suitabilities.
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admin reply on July 18, 2008 3:35 pm:
Haha, don’t worry I’ve been accused of being worse things than a prima-donna and the hating on druids is purely entertainment value for the most part. (our raid runs 3 resto-druids) The frustrating part about Druids in 5 mans will always be that they don’t have an out of combat Rez which they should and isn’t there fault at all, but it’s reality.
Glad you enjoyed it, I definitely have to put out #6 some time soon.
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