Loading ...Avoidance outside the Math: Dodge, Parry, Defense… Block?
It’s funny ever since the buzz term Effective Health was popularized by Ciderhelm, we’ve somewhat stopped talking about Avoidance. I mean sure the occasional post surfaces on Avoidance, but it’s always rooted in endless amounts of math. If there’s one thing I’ve learned about the tanking community and this game in general it is that math is pretty pointless.
People just don’t get math.
“Why is there so much Math?”, I asked myself and I realized something. Effective Health won. At some point in time, it won. It won by being that thing associated with tanking. It’s that magical phrase that when used in a breath just proves that you know the secret language that is Warrior Tanking. It’s interesting that whereas Effective Health was forced to prove itself for so long to be a viable ideology we are now seeing the Avoidance community having to prove itself instead.
Effective Health vs Avoidance
I’d be remiss to start talking about Avoidance without throwing out there the most common forum title associated with Avoidance and I’m sure at least a few of you are thinking right… “did he really just go there?”
Yup, I just did.
But don’t worry, I’m far too diplomatic to walk into a gun fight with a knife. (Ya, I don’t know if that sentence makes sense to be either) If there’s one thing I’ve always tried to resonate amongst my little tidbits of advice dare I say tips, it’s the following:
It’s not about Effective Health vs Avoidance. It’s about Effective Health AND Avoidance.
There’s no reason that you as a Tank have to force yourself into being a knife or a fork. A smart tank is a swiss army knife utilizing the tools necessary to solve the situation at hand. Gear yourself for the encounter. If you are wearing the exact same gear for every trash pull and for every boss…
You are wrong.
Whatever let’s move on…
Veneretio pushes aside the remnants of what’s left of two or more combatants. Knees bloodied, he’d survived the EH/Avoidance debate, but for how long…
Agreed, it’s time to move onto our focus for this evening. Avoidance outside the Math.
The crowd goes wild at the sound of a math-less post.
Whoa, whoa now! Who said math-less? You are going to find some math. What you aren’t going to find is any math trying to prove that Avoidance is valuable or any math proving that it’s better than Effective Health. Every dog and his owner is already trying to prove that. You can read their stuff, try searching Google. Instead let’s look at Avoidance in relation to itself. Let’s pretend you do value Avoidance for a second, but you don’t necessarily understand all the aspects of Avoidance.
Dodge
The Avoidance Stat. Period.
[Vene, you’ve gotta add more stuff here… 4 words don’t make a point. -editor]
Clearly, you haven’t read all of my other posts. [grrr -editor] Fine, fine. Here’s some math:
18.9 Dodge Rating = 1% Dodge = 1% Avoidance
Dodge is what is always associated with Avoidance. A lot of people make the wrongful assumption though that when we are talking about Avoidance, we are talking exclusively about Dodge. That’s simply not the case. Dodge is the best way to improve your Avoidance, but it’s definitely not the only Avoidance stat and when someone asks you the question, “What’s your Avoidance?” and you recite your Dodge Percentage… you really haven’t painted to them a complete picture. (ie. it’s the wrong answer)
Parry
The Avoidance stat that everyone likes to pretend actually increases your Threat.
First and foremost, the threat element offered by Parry is trivial and honestly not worth worrying about or discussing. For anyone that wants to walk down that road with you, I’d counter with, “Well if your attacks are faster then you are attacking more giving your opponent more opportunities to parry YOUR attacks resulting in the value of Parry as a survivability stat lessening even more than the already unaggressive amount of Avoidance it provides per rating point in the first place”. You’ll have to practice that one for a while if you want to use it because it’s certainly a mouthful. The point is neither is worth worrying about, but what is worth worrying about is:
23.65 Parry Rating = 1% Parry = 1% Avoidance
That’s not even close to as much Avoidance as Dodge provides. For that reason, I’d never suggest you use any gem of any kind that contains Parry Rating. It’s simply a waste. (I can safely say this without hurting Dezzy’s feelings now since she enlightened herself on this subject a while ago)
Defense
The stat everyone forgets to mention offers Avoidance.
What I said on the topic of Defense and it’s relationship with Avoidance still rings true many months later and it in many ways represents one of the most important things I’ve ever said here by actually quantifying the Avoidance value of Defense. For those of you too lazy to click the link above (I don’t blame you), here’s the math:
19.7 Defense Rating = .33% Dodge + .33% Parry + .33% Miss = 1% Avoidance
I still remember my reaction when I hacked out the math behind Defense Rating. I was shocked. It is shocking how close Defense is to Dodge Rating (remember “The Avoidance Stat. Peroid.”) when it comes to Avoidance offered. It’s so close that ever since then I’ve always recommended that should you feel that you need more Avoidance early in the game (even though this is the wrong approach) that you should always socket and enchant for Defense Rating not Dodge Rating. The reason is because it’ll allow you greater flexibility with your other pieces and you won’t have to worry about the ever present question, “How do I become Uncrittable?”
Block
The Avoidance stat that isn’t an Avoidance stat despite how hard people try to say it is.
There’s nothing that infuriates me more than Block Rating. It’s a horrible, ugly stat not because it doesn’t offer some minor value, but because it’s the most overvalued pile of garbage amongst newer players. It’s funny because what ends up happening is that newer players value it too much whereas experience players forget that it does actually offer a decent benefit. (ie. A whole lot more survivability benefit than Parry offers as a threat benefit) Ultimatlely…
Block Rating is not Avoidance.
Okay, well sometimes it is, but not when it matters… so there! Little kid logical aside, when you block an attack if the attack doesn’t do any damage, Block Rating is Avoidance. However, that’s not normally the case as you guys already know. Blocking any attack of anything that means anything does result in damage and as a result Block Rating is not Avoidance. It’s for that very reason that when I determined the true Avoidance benefit of Defense Rating that I completely ignored the Block Rating element added.
What Avoidance is Valuable?
What this whole wall of text comes down to is the following:
- Defense is Avoidance
- Dodge AND Defense are strong Avoidance stats
- Parry shouldn’t be ignored, but shouldn’t be sought after either
- Blocking an attack isn’t Avoiding an Attack.
So understand when looking at or comparing items for Avoidance value that Dodge and Defense are the big players. Parry may not be a bad stat, but it’s going to soak up as much itemization as Dodge while not offering the same level of return. This results in any item with Parry on it being of lesser value than it would have been had the item had straight Dodge instead. (which is illustrated by Ancient Aqir Artifact being worse than Moroes Lucky Pocket Watch despite dropping in a higher level instance) Finally, Block Rating is a stat you should completely ignore when deciding whether one item is better than another. (which yes, means that Pauldrons of Stone Resolve are a lot worse than Destroyer Shoulderguards)
[They’ll never see a post this long coming -editor]
Oh, Shut Up! You are so fired.
June 10th, 2008 at 7:39 pm
So your saying we should be a SPORK! Got it =)
[Reply]
admin reply on June 10, 2008 7:40 pm:
Nope, a knork.
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Zadolix reply on June 10, 2008 7:53 pm:
I have to disagree about what you say on parry, the threat increase is not trivial. Swinging faster will give you rage faster which means you can get threat out quicker (with the faster whites also having a chance to crit). Any tank worth his salt will have a healthy amount of expertise so worrying about a boss parrying after you have parried is the more trivial thing. I’ve had ‘parry streaks’ on a boss before where I’ve parried up to 3-4 times in a row and it’s give me a lovely rage boost, especially nice if low on rage.
Call me stupid but I value parry more than dodge and always go for it, the heroic mech parry/stam gems, the +10 epic parry gems. Of course I don’t sacrifice my health or other avoidance for it but I do have a high preference for it. Do a warcrafter.net search on Zadolix - Boulderfist EU and check out my build.
[Reply]
admin reply on June 10, 2008 9:07 pm:
By socketing for 10 Parry (0.422% Avoidance) instead of 10 Dodge (0.529% Avoidance) you are leaving a lot of easy to gain Avoidance out in the cold.
Your full socket setup results in 35 Parry Rating. (1.48% Avoidance) By using Dodge Rating gems instead you could have had 1.85% Avoidance. You are essentially throwing away 0.37% Avoidance or 7 Dodge Rating.
In the end, that’s not a lot, but then it’s also free. I like free.
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Dezdemone reply on June 11, 2008 9:37 am:
One point that should be mentioned is that just because you parry doesn’t mean you actually HIT the boss when you parry! No hit = No rage which means that your parry was worse than useless.
I am not going to tell you to gem for hit, but I will tell you that you would get a lot more threat out of +8 hit than you would out of +8 parry… A LOT more. Dont make me break out the WWS threat parses…
Our class is full of Min/maxers for a reason. You should have specific sets of gear. If you’re socketting a peice of threat gear then socket it for something that’s going to benefit that set (best bet being stam in most cases) if you’re socketting avoidance gear then socket it for avoidance.
Don’t bother with “balanced” stats you will make a far better “balanced” set by blending your avoidance, effective health, and threat gear. If you have a reasonable amount of gear you should be able to customize your gear to give you the very best chance at killing whatever you’re up against.
Kerchunk reply on June 11, 2008 4:45 pm:
“If you have a reasonable amount of gear you should be able to customize your gear…”
This is exactly why I hate gem advice. It’s full of “if’s” that make the advice right for a select set of people who are after the same sorts of things you are and rolling in customizable gear.
Balanced stats do make sense for me, because a) I don’t have a “reasonable” amount of gear apparently and b) I’m not tanking in Sunwell, so I don’t mind losing the avoidance I lose when gemming Parry instead of Dodge, and the difference between 0 Parry Rating and the 60+ I run with now is a noticeable amount of threat.
Veneretio reply on June 11, 2008 5:45 pm:
I guess what you have to ask yourself is would it make more sense to gem for Dodge for all your gems except 1 and gem that one for Hit Rating? You’d end up with the same Avoidance and more threat with the same number of gem slots.
I guess the only thing I’d request of you is… you say it is noticeable, but relative to what? I think if you tested it against a set socketed the opposite for Dodge, you’d find there really wasn’t much difference at all. Unfortunately, financially that makes little sense in this game.
Zadolix reply on June 12, 2008 6:48 pm:
At least when you gem for parry/stam you are getting avoidance, threat and stam where as hit is just for threat, who gems for hit anyway? That comes passively with gear in time.
As for dodge vs parry gemming with parry you are slightly decreasing avoidance and increasing attack speed which = more threat, where as with dodge you are just straight up avoiding but more than parry. I still use multiple sets of gear for all situations like max avoidance, SBV/expertise set, EH set etc. But in all my ‘best’ pieces of gear i stick parry/stams in to squeeze every last bit of TPS out while still maintaining decent health and avoidance
Rochelle reply on June 13, 2008 10:30 am:
There was a thread on EJ a while back that looked closely at how parry mechanics work. As always on the theorycraft threads, they got deep into math and my brain quickly stopped comprehending it, but at the end, with a 1.6 speed weapon, 20% parry is roughly equal to 4% haste. With a 3.6 2h it is closer to 10% haste. Parry will give you some appreciable threat increase because over time it effectively gives you some free haste.
That said, I have to agree with Vene that you would probably see a bigger threat increase if you went with replaced all your parry with dodge and then put a hit gem somewhere. You are losing more from attacks missing than you are gaining from the tiny amount of haste.
Kavtor reply on June 13, 2008 11:51 am:
Also, parry only affects your white damage. Hit affects your specials, with all their tasty high threat modifiers. Missing a shield slam will hurt a lot more than a hasted white attack will make up.
Zadolix reply on June 13, 2008 11:29 pm:
Kav don’t forget it speeds up your heroic strikes too allowing for faster rage dumping
Rochelle reply on June 14, 2008 10:57 am:
I don’t get ‘rage dumping’. Phase 3 RoS is the only time where I actively want to dump rage. In no other situation have I ever thought, ‘look at all this rage, I better get rid of it’.
Veneretio reply on June 14, 2008 12:01 pm:
Rage is dumped to ensure you don’t have Rage Waste by gaining rage beyond 100. Dumping rage isn’t about using all of your rage until you have 0. It’s about monitoring your rage so that if you jump beyond the 50 mark that you heroic strike it down a peg or two.
Rochelle reply on June 14, 2008 12:44 pm:
It was more of a comment on a dumb term. You never are trying to get rid of rage just for the sake of getting rid of rage as the term ‘rage dump’ would imply.
Zadolix reply on June 14, 2008 6:18 pm:
Well that all heroic strike is used for, rage dumping, nothing more, nothing less
Rochelle reply on June 14, 2008 10:09 pm:
uh… lol?
Veneretio reply on June 14, 2008 11:43 pm:
Be nice Rochelle. Be it intentional or not, trolling is unnecessary.
Zadolix reply on June 15, 2008 4:35 pm:
Alright I’ll explain it abit more clearly, as you should know heroic strike costs the rage price shown to use it and the lost rage from turning the white into a yellow, therefore if you were permanently queue up HS it would be a rage dump as you would not be gaining any rage from your melee. So it’s used when incoming damage is high and/or to stop you from getting wasted rage like vene said. It’s only other use is for dps but thats only dps warriors obviously. So for us, it’s just a rage dump.
Veclro reply on June 16, 2008 7:25 am:
I understand Rochelle’s point, it’s not that he doesn’t understand what the term is and how it’s used, he just doesn’t think the term accurately describes what you are doing. You aren’t dumping rage like you would dump water from a bucket, thus losing it with no gain, you are actually trading the rage for additional damage and threat.
Vrathmat reply on June 16, 2008 8:16 am:
I think dumping is still a fair word to describe it since the word ‘dump’ just means to drop or empty out…not necessarily to completely throw away (not all dump trucks hold trash; most hold useful materials). You’re not actively relying on HS to generate your main source of threat; you are merely using it because if you don’t use it before you hit 100, you lose it. The extra benefit of HS isn’t huge, and you would do just fine if you didn’t have it, so you’re basically still just dumping extra rage into something rather than nothing.
It’s kind of like having $150 leftover in my medical flex spending account at the end of the year and I quickly spend it on a year’s worth of cough drops just so the man doesn’t get to keep my money…
Kavtor reply on June 16, 2008 9:40 am:
“The extra benefit of HS isn’t huge, and you would do just fine if you didn’t have it”
That depends entirely on what you’re tanking. In heroics or Kara at the expected gear level you could make that argument. In Sunwell with ridiculous DPS it’s a little different. The word ‘dump’ probably doesn’t accurately represent what is a very important part of high end threat generation. HS is a very significant percentage of your threat in those situations.
I think the golden number is 10988 (11k) damage to fill your rage bar. There are definitely fights where you’re absolutely not concerned (and have no power over) managing rage such that you don’t go over 100.
Rochelle reply on June 16, 2008 10:43 am:
As I said, the term rage dump implies that you are getting rid of rage just for the sake of getting rid of rage. It makes it seem like you are doing it because something bad will happen if you have 100 rage.
Changing stances is a rage dump. Heroic Strike is a threat generator. And you will see HUGE difference in your threat if you compare a fight where you have enough rage to HS liberally and one where you do not.
Vrathmat reply on June 16, 2008 11:08 am:
Something bad does happen if you have 100 rage - you’re throwing rage out the window when you could be doing some extra threat with HS. I’m not saying that HS doesn’t make a difference; I’m just saying that it’s typically not part of our critical core rotation and is the first thing that gets cut when rage is low.
I guess I’m not entirely sure what you’re arguing here other than some nitpicky personal word connotation. The only time you’re going to be using HS is when your normal rotation doesn’t drain your rage fast enough (or if you’re saving your GCD for an interrupt). Like I said, “dumping” does not have to mean “throwing away.” It just means proactively lowering your rage level before you hit 100 and start wasting it.
Kavtor reply on June 16, 2008 12:02 pm:
Vrathmat, what Rochelle and I are saying is coming from a different point of view. What we consider to be ’standard’ tanking (for us) is sunwell. We do have the incoming DPS to keep HS as a pretty standard part of our rotation, and an important part of keeping ahead of 2k+ DPS classes. A lot of the difference is semantics. To an extent it’s the connotation of the words, and to an extent it’s a different value assigned to the ability.
Rochelle reply on June 16, 2008 4:30 pm:
My argument starts with the connotation of ‘dumping’ and how it translates to people thinking that HS is something you should only be doing so that you will have less rage.
Calling HS a rage dump makes people think HS is a bad thing or its something they should only use when they have excess rage and that just isn’t the case. HS should be a staple in your threat rotation, it should be one of your core threat generating abilities.
Full rage bars are not a Sunwell only phenomenon. There are plenty of fights throughout raid pregression where you will have enough rage to do whatever you want (especially if you are geared for EH to the detriment of avoidance) and HS should be something you are trying to proactively use, not something that you only use when everything else is on CD.
Casual reply on June 27, 2008 2:49 pm:
Correct if I’m wrong but my understanding of Parry versus Dodge is that Parry will generate threat by getting hit yet it
involves no damage taken, and the next attack will be faster.
Dodge involves no threat generation, no damage taken, and the same swing speed. So coupled with a decent amount of expertise,
Parry (although not producing as much avoidence as dodge per point)
will provide all the threat, no damage, and a quicker return strike
which will in fact up TPS, while the expertise will lower the chances of that
returned Parry. I think the lower percentage of avoidance per point from Parry is attributed to the fact that it is such a good stat and not as readily available as Dodge. That leads me to my conclusion that I personally think that Parry is an underated stat, but when not stacked realistically with Dodge however, a lot of avoidance can be left on the table.
MadTanker reply on September 4, 2008 11:29 am:
I know this is really old, and may never be seen, but:
Dezdemone reply on June 11, 2008 9:37 am:
One point that should be mentioned is that just because you parry doesn’t mean you actually HIT the boss when you parry! No hit = No rage which means that your parry was worse than useless.
this isn’t true, if the boss attacks you and you parry that attack, it is still considered “the boss hitting you” though you take no dmg, you do still get incoming rage as though you were dmg’d. and if your gemmed for a bit of HR, you get the speed boost generating more rage and more threat.
Dodge an attack = no threat. No hit incoming = no rage, no faster white output = no threat or rage.
Dodgeing attacks is the best “avoidance” but it has no rage or threat increase with its build. I can see where this build is useful, however the parry build while not as much avoidance, does generate more rage and threat. The total avoidance by both builds side by side in the end is barely noticable in combat. However I think you would see a diffrence in the amount of rage and threat the parry build produces. All in all though,
Parry Vs Dodge: Style prefrence. More avoidance or more rage and threat. If my healer is top notch, im going parry all the way. 2k dps is no joke, and I dont want a mob to break cause of it. w/e it takes to make the most threat and live.
Zadolix reply on June 17, 2008 4:19 am:
Well thats the point, you SHOULD only use HS when theres excess rage (50+ for me) and it isn’t part of the golden rotation. The only time HS is effective is when rage is high and you can chuck one in inbetween every single move of your rotation. It’s a reactive move not a proactive one, you use HS to react to large amounts of rage building up. If you try to pro actively use it and you get an avoidance streak then you’ve just shot yourself in the foot.
A full threat spec rotation takes 37 rage per cycle, chucking a HS in there ‘proactively’ could have the chance of gimping your threat. It’s still a rage dump since it’s the last move you want to use in a low/medium rage situation and only useful in a high rage situations to DUMP rage. Yes it is extra threat ofc, but it’s still dumping it to stop rage waste.
[Reply]
Rochelle reply on June 17, 2008 6:48 am:
Not using HS is a threat dump.
Vrathmat reply on June 17, 2008 7:39 am:
lol, Rochelle. Dump isn’t a bad word! But I suppose I’ll support you if you want to petition that the tanking community start calling it “Excess Rage Control,” “Rage Funneling” or something else. I’ll admit that there is probably a more precise term.
We get that you’re saying we shouldn’t treat HS like a red-headed stepchild, but I think most all of us understand how HS should be used because it’s honestly not that complicated whether you’re in Sunwell or Kara. If you’re spamming your core rotation and have rage left, THEN start queuing HS, otherwise DON’T or you’ll hit an avoidance streak and end up so rage starved you miss a shield block and look like a huge noob. So unless you’re suggesting we start skipping a revenge or SS for HS (which I’m pretty sure you aren’t), then is there something else you’re getting at here? What exact behavior are you saying needs to change? Even if I decide to give HS an extra /hug now and then, I’m still not going to use it unless I have the extra rage for it.
I like HS and the extra threat it gives, but as far as I’m concerned, it’s only going to get attention as long as shield block and ss/rev/dev have been given rage first — that applies no matter what dungeon I’m in.
Rochelle reply on June 17, 2008 9:17 am:
In another thread I jokingly said something like ‘who uses CC?’. And I got jumped on because while most people would have seen it as a joke, there might be some brand new tank who read it as truth. So I guess my whole crusade here is to make sure that that same brand new tank doesn’t read this and assume that HS is a bad thing and that, “Well that all heroic strike is used for, rage dumping, nothing more, nothing less”.
Embrace HS. Its possible to use it too much and end up short on rage for a few seconds. But I promise, the boss is still going to hit you and you will get more rage in the short run. And being free with HS means you will have more threat in the long run. I think the biggest mistake people make regarding HS is assuming you get meaningful amounts of rage from your own white swing.
Kavtor reply on June 17, 2008 9:25 am:
Shield block is a fair rage hog, and in high threat situations, against mobs that don’t crush, the relative value between shield block and heroic strike isn’t so black and white, depending on both your threat requirements and your survivability requirements.
Just to continue the silly semantics, dump is a ‘bad’ word.
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/dump?view=uk
Cruising a few other definitions, this one seems to be especially silly.
“Dump - b: to get rid of unceremoniously or irresponsibly”
Tanalin reply on July 16, 2008 6:39 am:
I think parry is a decent stat if it comes naturally or you get a parry/stam from her. Mech. Parrying doesn’t automatically equal threat. You could still miss the boss, despite how much expertise/hit you have. Dodge does more point for point in avoidance than parry, plain and simple. Gimping effective health by socketing pure parry is kind of wasted IMO.
[Reply]
June 10th, 2008 at 8:55 pm
I see dodge… and I see parry… and I see defense… and block…
Where’s miss chance smart guy?!
Tooltip defense with a 5% base miss chance and perhaps a little hunter sting on the side and it adds up quick! (especially if you have a silly avoidance set with 573 defense rating!)
Something else to note is that if you’re thinking about gemming for avoidance (and only if you know why you’re doing it!) to hit some nice socket bonuses, you might want to look at enchants.
If 15 stam v 10 dodge is an interesting choice, 12 defense v 12 stam on bracers, or 150 health v 15 defense on chest becomes a really interesting choice.
/now I just need to think of something more inflametory to get Rochelle all fired up
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admin reply on June 10, 2008 9:01 pm:
I’m surprised you missed that I didn’t even mention Agility
(though this was done somewhat intentionally since it’s not worth worrying about)
For those wondering, 30 Agility = 1% Avoidance making it worse than the rest.
[Reply]
Kavtor reply on June 10, 2008 9:38 pm:
Yeah, but agility -> dodge shows up in the tool tip anyway, and theres no way you’d go out of your way to pick up agility. Although that might be good info for newer tanks!
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Eddi reply on June 11, 2008 1:33 am:
Yes, but… In raids, you usualy have BOK therefor it gets a little better but still worse than dodge if you value pure avoidance.
On the other hand its also a plus in armor and crit so depending on preferences, some go for agi > dodge
[Reply]
Rochelle reply on June 11, 2008 5:04 pm:
Speaking of bracer enchants, the T6 bracers are really nice avoidance pieces which makes me want to put 12 def on them but they also have best-in-slot EH and they even have a blue sockets which makes me want to put 12 stam on them. I had the same problem with the naj’entus bracers before 2.4. Both times I have gone with 12 stamina but my heart really hasn’t been in it.
[Reply]
Orenus reply on June 12, 2008 7:32 am:
Sounds like you need a second set of those bracers.
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Kavtor reply on June 13, 2008 11:54 am:
I just switched over to 12 def on bracers and 15 def on chest.
If I’m making 10 dodge for 15 stam trades on occasion, I really can’t see a reason not to go straight across. We’ll see how it works out.
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Rochelle reply on June 13, 2008 10:40 am:
I only just now saw that last bit Kavtor. I don’t think you can possibly get me riled up because no matter what you say, I know that deep down you are a true believer. ALL HAIL POCKET WATCH. Its the infidels like Vene who haven’t yet seen the light that get me all fired up. Pocket Watch is the Truth, the Light, the Way. Pocket Watch is the One True Trinket, all others pale before it’s glory.
And the Pocket Watch spoke, “Let all those that don’t believe and all those that do not bask in the glory of my on demand dodge be shown the light! And if they do not see, then show them the blade. Go forth my children, into the battlegrounds and the arenas and the contested territories and slay the non-believers!”
Trinkets are serious business.
[Reply]
Ridlyblade reply on June 13, 2008 11:41 am:
I’ve yet to pick up a pocket watch and I never ever will…i can see my wristwatch still, a bear on the other hand…his wristwatch got covered up my fur, so he has to have a pocket watch to be able to tell time. (yes that is a convoluted way of me saying i think the pocket watch is a bear trinket)
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Kavtor reply on June 13, 2008 11:52 am:
That was epic Rochelle. You sir, are the man.
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Vrathmat reply on June 13, 2008 12:00 pm:
/salute
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admin reply on June 13, 2008 12:19 pm:
The funny thing is I’ve always used the Pocket Watch lol
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Kavtor reply on June 13, 2008 1:00 pm:
Oh you say that now! I’ve seen you with those silly darkmoon cards, and didn’t you wind up with that silly parry trinket at one point?
You’re not fooling anyone.
Pocket watch hater.
Rochelle reply on June 13, 2008 1:13 pm:
The Pocket Watch is not fooled by your small gesture. The Pocket Watch knows you are apostate. You turn to the Pocket Watch like a man on his death bed turns to God in his last hour. The Pocket Watch knows you are not sincere. You must give up yourself unto to Pocket Watch and ask nothing in return, only then shall the Pocket Watch let you suckle at the teet of a totally kickass Use effect.
Veneretio reply on June 13, 2008 1:57 pm:
lol, the parry trinket I picked up only a month ago actually and have never actually used it. The darkmoon card I wore for Kael at that’s about it survival-wise.
That being said I don’t have SMI so I haven’t had to truly test my faith yet so to speak
Kavtor reply on June 13, 2008 2:42 pm:
I passed on another SMI a few weeks ago. I think I’m up to 5 that I’ve passed on. And I vendored the parry trinket, it never made it out of my bank.
bosephus reply on June 13, 2008 2:02 pm:
Trinkets -are- serious business. What goes best with the pocket watch? The Commendation? The Shard?
[Reply]
Kavtor reply on June 13, 2008 2:43 pm:
shard for threat, commendation for survivability. Hydross trinket or something for avoidance if you aren’t likely to drop below 30% (and won’t need the stamina) but still want to help the healers out.
Rochelle reply on June 13, 2008 4:42 pm:
I normally run with Shard + Auto Blocker for farm content, threat fights and trash and Pocket Watch + Commendation for bosses that are tank killers.
SMI never leaves my bag unless I am playing around with a passive uncrushable set. But I don’t think I have ever actually tanked anything in my passive uncrushable set.
Trinkets are kinda funny like that, the very best ones are from Karazhan, badges and a heroic. Even the new one from M’uru is a piece of crap. HP on Use is pretty mediocre to start with and 54 expertise is just garbage when you consider that by the time you get to M’uru, you are already going to be well past the expertise soft cap and damn close to the hard cap.
Ridlyblade reply on June 13, 2008 11:12 pm:
I think i own the parry trinket and it sits in my bank…only to be part of my play passive uncrush set that gets dusty
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June 10th, 2008 at 9:23 pm
I do enjoy that extra agility the tier tanking gear gives us
Dodge is definately more accessible with the rating been lower and adding in agility, guess I’m just a parry freak and like lots of numbers :p
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June 10th, 2008 at 10:11 pm
just passing by to check on the uncrushable list u done long time ago ( i finally made my 102.4% ) and wanted to thank you for being such a dedicated tank and caring about sharing your experience.
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June 10th, 2008 at 10:47 pm
Personally, I am looking for some answers with regards to the right balance of EH and Avoidance, in Sunwell. Should I continue my emphasis on EH? (i.e. gemming for stam, instead of gemming according to socket colors)
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Namthe reply on June 11, 2008 4:46 am:
I believe thanks to Sunwell Radiance (-20% to dodge vs bosses) once you reach sunwell you need to gain huge chunks of avoidance. Not that I’m there yet by any means.
So, a fine balance between Effective Health and avoidance is going to be the best to go for.
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Kavtor reply on June 11, 2008 7:21 am:
As always, it depends on the fight. I wear a lot more avoidance on trash in sunwell than I do in BT to even things out a bit.
Kalecgos is still a fight where you tend towards more health over more avoidance. Sathrovaar is landing some wicked spikes. Which seem bad, until Brutallus does that to you every second. Brutallus is an avoidance fight though, no question.
I haven’t been past Brut (1% wipes FTL) but it sounds like you need a ton of both stamina and avoidance. But with blue sockets showing up on gear again, it’s pretty easy to gem for socket bonuses and keep your stam up.
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Rochelle reply on June 11, 2008 10:29 am:
Trash isn’t affected by sunwell radiance so there really isn’t a reason to wear more avoidance on it than you would in BT.
What I have found in sunwell is that your gear has more than enough stamina on it so that gemming for more stamina really doesn’t accomplish anything. The whole argument about avoidance vs. effective health is based on the premise that you already have ENOUGH of one or the other. When you are doing anything less than sunwell, then the gear already has enough avoidance built into it such that you don’t have to enchant or gem for more. But Sunwell Radiance means that you no longer have enough avoidance so you need to be proactive about getting more. If you are tanking anything in Sunwell with less than 60% avoidance (before sunwell radiance) then you are making life a lot harder for yourself and your healers. Thats ~30% dodge, 23% parry, 7% to be missed.
Kalecgos is still an EH fight, Brutallus is all about avoidance, Felmyst is a threat fight where you will want avoidance, Twins are a threat fight where you will want EH, M’uru it kinda depends on what your job is. For humanoid tanking you want a lot of avoidance and a lot of threat, for sentinels you want avoidance and EH and threat and maybe a little SR. I haven’t done Kil’Jaeden yet so I don’t really know what you need to tank him.
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June 10th, 2008 at 10:58 pm
Might also be worth mentioning that the Shield Block ability is another reason block rating is rubbish. For any fight where you actually need to block you’re spamming Shield Block anyway so all your pretty block rating does absolutely nothing rather than a whole lot of useless something.
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June 11th, 2008 at 12:53 am
Whenever the avoidance vs. EH debate crosses my mind I just consider what I’m tanking. If the boss does a lot of (or exclusively) melee damage I tend to go for more avoidance, but if they do a lot more magic damage I tend to go for more EH.
As for which I like better, avoidance all the way for me. I’m also a healer at times and I know the benefit of having a chance to breathe on an encounter. That string of dodges has saved my life far more than once.
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Eddi reply on June 11, 2008 1:43 am:
Interesting point but I made a sad discovery WAY back… when I have a LOT of avoidance and the damage is coming in sporadic, the healers are often healing someone else and don’t switch back fast enough. Therefore I risk dying more than if I have a steady income of damage and can keep the damage lower e.g. with more blocks.
OK, maybe it’s just our healers but maybe others have made the same observations…
How about the other readers?
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Gareth reply on June 11, 2008 6:36 am:
I’ve had the same thoughts here too, tanking Prince a couple of times I’ve been humming along with 18k buffed up health and then wham down I went. I’ve got enough expertise to remove 10% of parries, and checking the log it wasn’t a parry that got me.
What I did notice happening though was both times this happened I had a big massive string of dodge, parry and miss and then he had thrown in his extra two attacks, and also just so happened to have gotten crushes in afterwards (since my shield block had disappeared then, basically the worse possible case, but eventually it happens). Another thing on the combat log, either Prince started hitting 2 swings a second or the healers were elsewhere as I had been hit about 8 times between heals
I was doing everything I could there, tc’d, demo shout, commanding shout, keeping block up where possible, uncrittable and in mostly T5/T4 gear, yet I think the net result was the healers attention had wandered elsewhere in the raid….
One of the big strengths of the bear tank, lots of armour, no crush immunity and consistent damage that requires constant attention to heal through.
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Vrathmat reply on June 11, 2008 7:35 am:
Teddy bears have to take crushings — they’re not immune
Machus reply on June 11, 2008 5:53 pm:
I find the same. Since I’m tanking heroics and 10-mans in PuGs, turning up with high HP reassures the group in the first place. Then during the run having high effective health is straightforward: The healers can see it go down in a steady way and adjust their heals. They also have a big buffer to recover from mistakes. I have way too much EH for heroics, and I’m sure that with guild healers avoidance would be more effective, but with strangers EH wins for communication reasons.
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Rochelle reply on June 11, 2008 6:46 pm:
That is really well said and extremely true. For any content, EH and avoidance will perform about the same but the difference is how the healers are able to respond and strangers/less-then-stellar healers are always going to be able to deal with an EH tank more easily than an avoidance tank.
Blackavar reply on June 12, 2008 2:34 pm:
Perhaps it’s just me, but my brother plays a paladin and is often my main healer. He can tell the difference between my sets and he has always told me that in my avoidence set he has a much easier time healing me on most encounters.
Then again as it has been said he knows me as a tank and he knows how to react when I take dodges. He doesn’t wander about the raid spot healing if I’m dodging he allows himself a break to regen, and is right on top of things when parries come back at me or the boss gets a crush in. With an unknown healer I notice I tend to wear my “best in show” set giving myself high health and such to help them out and to of course show off a little.
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Dezdemone reply on June 11, 2008 9:45 am:
It also should depend on how quickly the boss hits.
A boss like prince is going to hit you enough to generate rage and keep your healers interested even if you’re gearing for avoidance.
However gearing for avoidance on a slow swinging boss like Gruul will cause problems:
1. you’re going to be rage starved if he doesn’t hit you.
2. spiky damage is harder for your healers to heal through.
3. He hits so darned hard that if you’ve only got 16-18k health because you’ve sacrificed stam for avoidance then you’re only going to be able to take 2 hits max.
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Hydrix reply on June 11, 2008 12:16 pm:
Black, there’s no such thing as effective health against magic damage. A technicality, however, as I knew you meant just maximizing your HP.
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Veneretio reply on June 11, 2008 12:27 pm:
Sure there is, it’s just a whole lot easier to calculate
You can also spec into Improved Defensive Stance to increase your MD effective health
Sounds like you’ve given me an idea for a new post and calculator
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Hydrix reply on June 11, 2008 6:36 pm:
Vene you smartass! LOL if I inspired a post, good news !
Fustigator reply on June 11, 2008 7:16 pm:
Ever thought about throwing up a DOT/bleed EH calculator for Nalorakk bear form tanks? I’ve always wondered where the balance point for stamina and resilience was.
Hydrix reply on June 12, 2008 5:44 am:
As the guy in my guild always tanking bear form, I have to say, I have never considered resilliance stacking for this fight. It’s really the only fight I ever worry about dying because a couple ticks of the dot coupled with one or two hits in a row from him with a silence effect hitting just as my healers are finishing their heals is pretty much the only time I worry about dying. It sucks.
The bad thing I see happening if you did stack resilliance would be dropping some avoidance, but maybe the tradeoff would be worth it to reduce the bleed by 10 or 20%. Have to give some thought into this. Or vene can tackle it
Blackavar reply on June 12, 2008 2:29 pm:
Yeah, what I meant was since I won’t be avoiding any of the magic damage (unless it’s a resistance fight) I stack EH as it’s the best for a steady mix of magic and melee. The high health helps for large magical hits and the high armor helps for the melee in between.
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June 11th, 2008 at 1:48 am
If anyone cares about just how useless block rating is, I’ve discussed it in relation to crushing blows here:
http://downhere.dentrassi.net/?p=40
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June 11th, 2008 at 3:22 am
Pfft. Avoidance sucks. Effective health = yay! \o/
As cider would say: I’ve said it before, and I”ll say it again: what do you know anyway?
On a serious note, does block rating not have merit in a 5-man when you’re tanking multiple mobs? Seems to me if you can block the amount of damage coming in by quite a bit, you can reduce the amount of heals you require while still having a steady rage income thus making it easier to multi-tank. Just a thought.
Oh and I totally agree on the arguement that parry is useless as a threat stat. I use a 1.5 speed sword for threat, if I parry their attack, there’s a good change I’ll see a negligible increase in speed time. But thena gain, who sockets for parry, seriously?
-quietly starts to replace 5 parry 6 stam gem in legs-
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Namthe reply on June 11, 2008 3:38 am:
Block rating has value tanking multiple mobs as damage reduction, sure. But in my experience in my most 5-mans (many heroics included) the pulls where serious multi-tanking is needed are the ones where a block reduces incoming damage to near zero, or mitigates it entirely.
That doesn’t make block rating worthless, though - strap on your sporregar shield, add a shield spike and get a friendly paladin to give you Blessing of Sanctuary. Stacking block rating should help immensely with threat.
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Hydrix reply on June 11, 2008 4:04 am:
I tend to not use CC in pretty much all heroics except those where the mob mob fears/summons adds/does mortal strike. I’m a paladin in disguise
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Dezdemone reply on June 11, 2008 9:47 am:
I agree that block rating can sometimes help with AOE tanking if you’ve got a shield spike, except that since BOS is so deep in the prot tree if you’ve got it you’re probably not the one tanking the AOE mobs.
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Namthe reply on June 11, 2008 11:10 am:
Yeah, that’s a good point, well made.
June 11th, 2008 at 7:24 am
I have a Block% set for thrash (as someone else said) or when I overgear the place. I rather get hit and soak the dmg with Block/Armor to gain rage (from the dmg and the bock itself) I could use to build more threat and allow my dps to push more than avoid it and find myself raged starved. A string of dodge/miss/parry to get you rage starved right a the start of the find and you look like a nub who can’t hold agro
For raid boss who worth it, I use a mix of avoidance/eh, trying to max-out both and keep them balanced.
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Djiss reply on June 11, 2008 7:25 am:
I mean “starved right a the start of the FIGHT” …
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June 11th, 2008 at 8:26 am
sorry, i havent had the time to read all the comments, but i have a doubt about block rating, and avoidance in 1 specific encounter. Jan’alai. He keeps consuming my shield block charges very fast. So, i nd up having 2 secs of crushable state, and that is annoying me. We got him down, even with me getting some crushes ( thanx to my uber healers ). but maybe block rating could help a bit in not getting crushed in those fast hitting bosses.
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Veneretio reply on June 11, 2008 8:47 am:
Unfortunately, once your shield block charges get consumed Block Rating doesn’t help you not get crushed. What it will do is help you not take a regular a hit once shield block is down and instead translate some of those into blocks.
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Namthe reply on June 11, 2008 9:04 am:
Indeed, my blog entry linked above explains why
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Dezdemone reply on June 11, 2008 9:49 am:
LOL @ Namthe… Shameless self promotion? Good job rofl.
June 11th, 2008 at 11:48 am
/clings to her Guardian’s Alchemist Stone /hisses at her Moroes’ Lucky Pocket Watch
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Vrathmat reply on June 11, 2008 12:34 pm:
Why oh why did they have to choose def rating for that stone?
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Talisman reply on June 12, 2008 3:36 pm:
The def rating is beautiful, the thing that makes it sucky in comparison is that you pretty much never use health potions in a raid tanking situation (or even if you did +40% is negligable) but +16% (?) dodge on demand is godly.
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Rochelle reply on June 11, 2008 12:36 pm:
You take that back. Ain’t nobody sayin nothin bout the pocket watch.
/reassuringly pats the pocket watch - don’t worry sweety, I won’t let them hurt you, its going to be ok.
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Kavtor reply on June 11, 2008 12:57 pm:
amen. As an alchemist, I haven’t bothered to make the stone. Pocket watch is just too good.
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Machus reply on June 11, 2008 5:42 pm:
The tanking stone is a lousy trinket really. Eventually I’ll make one, but the DPS version. Well I guess I might want two avoidance trinkets at some point, but haven’t found this point in heroics and 10-mans.
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Talisman reply on June 12, 2008 3:33 pm:
Lol, I made the tanking stone back because as an alt I didn’t need the pocket watch’s use for tanking heroics etc. and I was getting dangerously close to the def cap because of some gear choices I was making. Since then I got the Badge chest and pants (can you say Def overload?) and I got adopted by a new guild so I’m tanking raid bosses now. I honestly haven’t stopped to think about exactly how much gold I wasted on that p.o.s. alchemy stone because if I did I think I’d cry.
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Ridlyblade reply on June 13, 2008 11:48 am:
I’ve actually debated making my super tortoise, now that thar…is a bear trinket, or a resist set trinket and it has on demand dodge too =P
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June 11th, 2008 at 11:49 am
Speidel wakes up late Wednesday morning after a long night of arena. Running through his usual websites, he finally came to tankingtips.com, but he was not prepared for what awaited him. The Giant Wall of Text pounced out of the shadows lashing at the unsuspecting Speidel.
“What do we do now?!?” Asked Speidel to himself.
“Just skim through it and post a meaningless comment!” Exclaimed Speidel back to himself.
So Speidel used his amazing avoidance set to dodge the vicious attacks of the Giant Wall of Text and was able to post a beautiful comment, slaying the beast. Exhausted, but triumphant, Speidel trudged off into the moonligh.
[Moonlight is spelled with a T -editor]
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Spaz reply on June 11, 2008 2:16 pm:
Waking up late morning, and then walking off into the moonlight. Must have been an epic battle!
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June 12th, 2008 at 6:00 am
i was under the impression that defense also gave you .33 block rating. is that wrong?
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sundermonkey reply on June 12, 2008 7:00 am:
just hit up EJ and came up with this.
“Here are the facts:
2.4 defensive rating = 1 defense skill
1 defense skill changes the following by 0.04%:
* Increase chance to block
* Increase chance to dodge
* Increase chance to parry
* Increase chance to be missed
* Decrease chance to be crit
* Decrease chance to be dazed”
so the way i read it is that is
19.7 Defense Rating = .33% Dodge + .33% Parry + .33% Miss = 1% Avoidance +.33% block
so that would make defense point for point better than dodge wouldnt it? im not saying block rating is avoidance. im saying that its a stat you get for free making up the .8 difference in cost vs dodge.
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admin reply on June 12, 2008 7:34 am:
Yup, definitely not denying that it adds Block Rating, but that’s not Avoidance. The article I’ve linked to in the Defense section does indicate the Block Rating element, but ultimately discounts it since we’ll have Shield Block up the majority of the time.
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June 12th, 2008 at 1:32 pm
To help out the raid healing on Naj’entus and intrigued by recent avoidance articles I spec’d 5/5 anticipation, changed a hit gem for defense/stam, and changed my +18 stam helm enchant for the KoT avoidance enchant. I miss my rage and so does my dps. I had 3 dps pull off me and die on bosses, with others holding back more than usual I’m sure. I was struggling to save enough rage to keep my SB on CD so I wouldn’t get crushed (but with the extra avoidance my chances of being crushed wihtout SB on CD is less).
That being said, having to be more careful with rage economy is a new challenge, which I enjoy. Despite a few DPS pulling aggro, my new build hasn’t slowed down progression so I think I’ll play with it some more.
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Speidel reply on June 13, 2008 11:40 am:
Are you saying that you don’t usually put 5 points into anticipation?
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Wesclorck reply on June 13, 2008 12:32 pm:
Throughout T5, as long as my healers could keep up I tried to avoid as little as possible so I could get hit more, get more rage, do more threat, let dps’ers go harder, and kill bosses faster. Also never had to worry about being rage starved to keep up TC, demo, and SB, and HS on most swings. I was spec’ing 3/3 and 2/2 and 0/5 first tier prot, supplemented resilience for defense, and was dishing out 1500tps to bosses. It was a lot of fun.
Now with all this raid-wide damage in T6, I’ve gotta give healers openings to heal up others so that means avoidance.
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Kavtor reply on June 13, 2008 11:59 am:
The big trick with moving towards avoidance is making sure your expertise and hit are both fairly high. You want to minimize the chances of both you not hitting the boss, and the boss not hitting you. If you can keep your white attacks connecting though, you can stay ahead on threat in most cases. (and 5/5 anticipation is a tough talent not to take)
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June 12th, 2008 at 2:15 pm
The problem I have is that the Pauldrons of Stone Resolve look so cool on a Tauren when worn with the Battleworn Tuskguard and the Bonefist Gauntlets. Angry Demon Chicken!!! Using the Tier shoulders with the Tuskguard and Bonefist just doesn’t look right.
If you don’t look good doing it, what’s the point, right?
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Talisman reply on June 12, 2008 3:40 pm:
Hehe, damn straight. Massif shoulders is the greatest Tauren racial there is. I still want a full ZA set for tanking 5-mans, still need that damn chicken helm though
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June 12th, 2008 at 6:44 pm
If you in theory would be tanking Sunwell, and would like to maximize your avoidance, wouldn’t it make more sense to skip dodge totally and take parry instead? I mean, it can’t reduce your dodge below 0%.
Say you have like 12% dodge and 30% parry “undebuffed”.
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Kavtor reply on June 12, 2008 11:12 pm:
Even if I regemmed and re-enchanted all my gear, any gear combination that I’d wear in sunwell would have upwards of 20% dodge, and I still have a fair number of drops left in BT / Hyjal.
Like Rochelle said earlier, not too many people really worried about avoidance through BT because you get a ton of it with out trying. It would be very, very tough to pick a gear set worthy of being in Sunwell that didn’t have 25%+ dodge, so you may as well stack more.
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Rochelle reply on June 13, 2008 9:31 am:
If you had less than 20% dodge to start with, then yes, it would make sense to stack parry instead of dodge because the dodge would be wasted until you are over the 20% mark. But if you are about to start Sunwell then there is no way you have less than 20% dodge.
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June 12th, 2008 at 6:52 pm
Yes and no, it depends on your setup but dodge is easier to obtain if your just focusing on avoidance because you get more avoidance for the rating and can factor in agility too.
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June 13th, 2008 at 4:59 am
Against fast hitting frenzy bosses wear avoidance (Prince, Halazzi, Brutallus) against everything else wear a good mix of everything.
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June 20th, 2008 at 2:22 pm
First of i am a noob tank just starting heroics so dont hold weight to my comment. From my point of view it is very easy to tell if you need more EH or more avoidance.
1. you take more DPS then healers can HPS
A. you need more avoidance
2. you die to burst dmg (proly less then 4-8 sec from full health to dead)
A. you need more EH
3. Healers run OOM
A. you need more avoidance
4. you hit an enrage timer
A. need more EH to allow more threat to allow more DPS
I also you like to thank the tanking community as there is a ton of great mathcraft out there however i have yet to see anyone attemp to run the numbers on EH vs. avoidance when taking into account the fact that healers have slow heals that are high HPS and HPM vs. fast heals that are low HPS low HPM. since i am not familiar with high end raiding tecniques i could not ever begin to attemp this (ie is flash heal used exclusivly vs greater heal?) i believe that this would make EH look even more attractive yet
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June 21st, 2008 at 2:31 pm
From what i understand parry = a hasted next swing while dodge = swing timer reset, you forgot to mention that. Indeed dodge is cheaper but not necessary better. Depends what you are facing basicly, in sunwell progression i know from our warriors rage isn`t an issue and gem`ing for avoidance is quite needed but i have a warrior alt doing kara/za & heroics mainly, ocasionally 25man raids and i`d never gem for parry/dodge over stamina. It`s simply not needed d: although after reading this arcticle i`ll probably put some def/stam gems in whatever gear i get next..
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June 26th, 2008 at 10:20 am
With regard to the (almighty) pocket watch; I was in OT position in a kara run, sporting Dabiri’s Enigma (spelling?) and the Terrokar Table of Precision (spelling, and, ugh, I know). Moroes dropped the pocket watch, I won it, and we moved on to Maiden where we wiped twice due to difficulties the MT was having with coordinating some fresh-to-kara healers. Long story short: I got bumped to MT, used the (almighty) pocket watch twice during the fight (early and late), and dropped Maiden at my first go.
The trinket essentially bumped me (while still wearing the jade skull breastplate) up to MT status. Remarkable for such a little thing.
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August 13th, 2008 at 5:55 am
I doubt anyone will read this low down an old thread, but… block rating has its use.
It’s what makes warrior tanks PASSIVE uncrashable (of course when WotLK comes out this scenario will be obsolete but oh well).
On some bosses I gear myself specifically with that in mind and some extra block rating, allows to reach the 102.4% total avoidance needed (100% + 2.4% from the boss being 3 levels higher).
Defense+Dodge+Parry -> I tend to refer to them as “pure avoidance”
Block Rating -> good for controlling the crashes and of course works itself as “armour” (the block value you have) as it absorbs some of that 5-8K physical damage
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