Comments on: Avoidance outside the Math: Dodge, Parry, Defense… Block? http://www.tankingtips.com/2008/06/10/avoidance-outside-the-math-dodge-parry-defense-block/ A guide to tanking as a warrior in world of warcraft Wed, 03 Dec 2008 07:09:36 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.2 By: MadTanker http://www.tankingtips.com/2008/06/10/avoidance-outside-the-math-dodge-parry-defense-block/#comment-3871 MadTanker Thu, 04 Sep 2008 18:29:04 +0000 http://www.tankingtips.com/2008/06/10/avoidance-outside-the-math-dodge-parry-defense-block/#comment-3871 I know this is really old, and may never be seen, but: Dezdemone reply on June 11, 2008 9:37 am: One point that should be mentioned is that just because you parry doesn’t mean you actually HIT the boss when you parry! No hit = No rage which means that your parry was worse than useless. this isn't true, if the boss attacks you and you parry that attack, it is still considered "the boss hitting you" though you take no dmg, you do still get incoming rage as though you were dmg'd. and if your gemmed for a bit of HR, you get the speed boost generating more rage and more threat. Dodge an attack = no threat. No hit incoming = no rage, no faster white output = no threat or rage. Dodgeing attacks is the best "avoidance" but it has no rage or threat increase with its build. I can see where this build is useful, however the parry build while not as much avoidance, does generate more rage and threat. The total avoidance by both builds side by side in the end is barely noticable in combat. However I think you would see a diffrence in the amount of rage and threat the parry build produces. All in all though, Parry Vs Dodge: Style prefrence. More avoidance or more rage and threat. If my healer is top notch, im going parry all the way. 2k dps is no joke, and I dont want a mob to break cause of it. w/e it takes to make the most threat and live. I know this is really old, and may never be seen, but:

Dezdemone reply on June 11, 2008 9:37 am:
One point that should be mentioned is that just because you parry doesn’t mean you actually HIT the boss when you parry! No hit = No rage which means that your parry was worse than useless.

this isn’t true, if the boss attacks you and you parry that attack, it is still considered “the boss hitting you” though you take no dmg, you do still get incoming rage as though you were dmg’d. and if your gemmed for a bit of HR, you get the speed boost generating more rage and more threat.

Dodge an attack = no threat. No hit incoming = no rage, no faster white output = no threat or rage.

Dodgeing attacks is the best “avoidance” but it has no rage or threat increase with its build. I can see where this build is useful, however the parry build while not as much avoidance, does generate more rage and threat. The total avoidance by both builds side by side in the end is barely noticable in combat. However I think you would see a diffrence in the amount of rage and threat the parry build produces. All in all though,

Parry Vs Dodge: Style prefrence. More avoidance or more rage and threat. If my healer is top notch, im going parry all the way. 2k dps is no joke, and I dont want a mob to break cause of it. w/e it takes to make the most threat and live.

]]> By: Primebeef http://www.tankingtips.com/2008/06/10/avoidance-outside-the-math-dodge-parry-defense-block/#comment-3533 Primebeef Wed, 13 Aug 2008 12:55:22 +0000 http://www.tankingtips.com/2008/06/10/avoidance-outside-the-math-dodge-parry-defense-block/#comment-3533 I doubt anyone will read this low down an old thread, but... block rating has its use. It's what makes warrior tanks PASSIVE uncrashable (of course when WotLK comes out this scenario will be obsolete but oh well). On some bosses I gear myself specifically with that in mind and some extra block rating, allows to reach the 102.4% total avoidance needed (100% + 2.4% from the boss being 3 levels higher). Defense+Dodge+Parry -> I tend to refer to them as "pure avoidance" ;) Block Rating -> good for controlling the crashes and of course works itself as "armour" (the block value you have) as it absorbs some of that 5-8K physical damage I doubt anyone will read this low down an old thread, but… block rating has its use.

It’s what makes warrior tanks PASSIVE uncrashable (of course when WotLK comes out this scenario will be obsolete but oh well).

On some bosses I gear myself specifically with that in mind and some extra block rating, allows to reach the 102.4% total avoidance needed (100% + 2.4% from the boss being 3 levels higher).

Defense+Dodge+Parry -> I tend to refer to them as “pure avoidance” ;)
Block Rating -> good for controlling the crashes and of course works itself as “armour” (the block value you have) as it absorbs some of that 5-8K physical damage

]]> By: Tanalin http://www.tankingtips.com/2008/06/10/avoidance-outside-the-math-dodge-parry-defense-block/#comment-3053 Tanalin Wed, 16 Jul 2008 13:39:49 +0000 http://www.tankingtips.com/2008/06/10/avoidance-outside-the-math-dodge-parry-defense-block/#comment-3053 I think parry is a decent stat if it comes naturally or you get a parry/stam from her. Mech. Parrying doesn't automatically equal threat. You could still miss the boss, despite how much expertise/hit you have. Dodge does more point for point in avoidance than parry, plain and simple. Gimping effective health by socketing pure parry is kind of wasted IMO. I think parry is a decent stat if it comes naturally or you get a parry/stam from her. Mech. Parrying doesn’t automatically equal threat. You could still miss the boss, despite how much expertise/hit you have. Dodge does more point for point in avoidance than parry, plain and simple. Gimping effective health by socketing pure parry is kind of wasted IMO.

]]> By: Casual http://www.tankingtips.com/2008/06/10/avoidance-outside-the-math-dodge-parry-defense-block/#comment-2898 Casual Fri, 27 Jun 2008 21:49:39 +0000 http://www.tankingtips.com/2008/06/10/avoidance-outside-the-math-dodge-parry-defense-block/#comment-2898 <p>Correct if I'm wrong but my understanding of Parry versus Dodge is that Parry will generate threat by getting hit yet it<br /> involves no damage taken, and the next attack will be faster.<br /> Dodge involves no threat generation, no damage taken, and the same swing speed. So coupled with a decent amount of expertise,<br /> Parry (although not producing as much avoidence as dodge per point)<br /> will provide all the threat, no damage, and a quicker return strike<br /> which will in fact up TPS, while the expertise will lower the chances of that<br /> returned Parry. I think the lower percentage of avoidance per point from Parry is attributed to the fact that it is such a good stat and not as readily available as Dodge. That leads me to my conclusion that I personally think that Parry is an underated stat, but when not stacked realistically with Dodge however, a lot of avoidance can be left on the table.</p> Correct if I’m wrong but my understanding of Parry versus Dodge is that Parry will generate threat by getting hit yet it
involves no damage taken, and the next attack will be faster.
Dodge involves no threat generation, no damage taken, and the same swing speed. So coupled with a decent amount of expertise,
Parry (although not producing as much avoidence as dodge per point)
will provide all the threat, no damage, and a quicker return strike
which will in fact up TPS, while the expertise will lower the chances of that
returned Parry. I think the lower percentage of avoidance per point from Parry is attributed to the fact that it is such a good stat and not as readily available as Dodge. That leads me to my conclusion that I personally think that Parry is an underated stat, but when not stacked realistically with Dodge however, a lot of avoidance can be left on the table.

]]> By: Balrok http://www.tankingtips.com/2008/06/10/avoidance-outside-the-math-dodge-parry-defense-block/#comment-2891 Balrok Thu, 26 Jun 2008 17:20:10 +0000 http://www.tankingtips.com/2008/06/10/avoidance-outside-the-math-dodge-parry-defense-block/#comment-2891 With regard to the (almighty) pocket watch; I was in OT position in a kara run, sporting Dabiri's Enigma (spelling?) and the Terrokar Table of Precision (spelling, and, ugh, I know). Moroes dropped the pocket watch, I won it, and we moved on to Maiden where we wiped twice due to difficulties the MT was having with coordinating some fresh-to-kara healers. Long story short: I got bumped to MT, used the (almighty) pocket watch twice during the fight (early and late), and dropped Maiden at my first go. The trinket essentially bumped me (while still wearing the jade skull breastplate) up to MT status. Remarkable for such a little thing. With regard to the (almighty) pocket watch; I was in OT position in a kara run, sporting Dabiri’s Enigma (spelling?) and the Terrokar Table of Precision (spelling, and, ugh, I know). Moroes dropped the pocket watch, I won it, and we moved on to Maiden where we wiped twice due to difficulties the MT was having with coordinating some fresh-to-kara healers. Long story short: I got bumped to MT, used the (almighty) pocket watch twice during the fight (early and late), and dropped Maiden at my first go.

The trinket essentially bumped me (while still wearing the jade skull breastplate) up to MT status. Remarkable for such a little thing.

]]> By: Soop http://www.tankingtips.com/2008/06/10/avoidance-outside-the-math-dodge-parry-defense-block/#comment-2828 Soop Sat, 21 Jun 2008 21:31:57 +0000 http://www.tankingtips.com/2008/06/10/avoidance-outside-the-math-dodge-parry-defense-block/#comment-2828 From what i understand parry = a hasted next swing while dodge = swing timer reset, you forgot to mention that. Indeed dodge is cheaper but not necessary better. Depends what you are facing basicly, in sunwell progression i know from our warriors rage isn`t an issue and gem`ing for avoidance is quite needed but i have a warrior alt doing kara/za & heroics mainly, ocasionally 25man raids and i`d never gem for parry/dodge over stamina. It`s simply not needed d: although after reading this arcticle i`ll probably put some def/stam gems in whatever gear i get next.. From what i understand parry = a hasted next swing while dodge = swing timer reset, you forgot to mention that. Indeed dodge is cheaper but not necessary better. Depends what you are facing basicly, in sunwell progression i know from our warriors rage isn`t an issue and gem`ing for avoidance is quite needed but i have a warrior alt doing kara/za & heroics mainly, ocasionally 25man raids and i`d never gem for parry/dodge over stamina. It`s simply not needed d: although after reading this arcticle i`ll probably put some def/stam gems in whatever gear i get next..

]]> By: Nich http://www.tankingtips.com/2008/06/10/avoidance-outside-the-math-dodge-parry-defense-block/#comment-2825 Nich Fri, 20 Jun 2008 21:22:45 +0000 http://www.tankingtips.com/2008/06/10/avoidance-outside-the-math-dodge-parry-defense-block/#comment-2825 First of i am a noob tank just starting heroics so dont hold weight to my comment. From my point of view it is very easy to tell if you need more EH or more avoidance. 1. you take more DPS then healers can HPS A. you need more avoidance 2. you die to burst dmg (proly less then 4-8 sec from full health to dead) A. you need more EH 3. Healers run OOM A. you need more avoidance 4. you hit an enrage timer A. need more EH to allow more threat to allow more DPS I also you like to thank the tanking community as there is a ton of great mathcraft out there however i have yet to see anyone attemp to run the numbers on EH vs. avoidance when taking into account the fact that healers have slow heals that are high HPS and HPM vs. fast heals that are low HPS low HPM. since i am not familiar with high end raiding tecniques i could not ever begin to attemp this (ie is flash heal used exclusivly vs greater heal?) i believe that this would make EH look even more attractive yet First of i am a noob tank just starting heroics so dont hold weight to my comment. From my point of view it is very easy to tell if you need more EH or more avoidance.

1. you take more DPS then healers can HPS
A. you need more avoidance

2. you die to burst dmg (proly less then 4-8 sec from full health to dead)
A. you need more EH

3. Healers run OOM
A. you need more avoidance

4. you hit an enrage timer
A. need more EH to allow more threat to allow more DPS

I also you like to thank the tanking community as there is a ton of great mathcraft out there however i have yet to see anyone attemp to run the numbers on EH vs. avoidance when taking into account the fact that healers have slow heals that are high HPS and HPM vs. fast heals that are low HPS low HPM. since i am not familiar with high end raiding tecniques i could not ever begin to attemp this (ie is flash heal used exclusivly vs greater heal?) i believe that this would make EH look even more attractive yet

]]> By: Kavtor http://www.tankingtips.com/2008/06/10/avoidance-outside-the-math-dodge-parry-defense-block/#comment-2761 Kavtor Tue, 17 Jun 2008 16:25:00 +0000 http://www.tankingtips.com/2008/06/10/avoidance-outside-the-math-dodge-parry-defense-block/#comment-2761 Shield block is a fair rage hog, and in high threat situations, against mobs that don't crush, the relative value between shield block and heroic strike isn't so black and white, depending on both your threat requirements and your survivability requirements. Just to continue the silly semantics, dump is a 'bad' word. http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/dump?view=uk Cruising a few other definitions, this one seems to be especially silly. "Dump - b: to get rid of unceremoniously or irresponsibly" Shield block is a fair rage hog, and in high threat situations, against mobs that don’t crush, the relative value between shield block and heroic strike isn’t so black and white, depending on both your threat requirements and your survivability requirements.

Just to continue the silly semantics, dump is a ‘bad’ word.
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/dump?view=uk

Cruising a few other definitions, this one seems to be especially silly.
“Dump - b: to get rid of unceremoniously or irresponsibly”

]]> By: Rochelle http://www.tankingtips.com/2008/06/10/avoidance-outside-the-math-dodge-parry-defense-block/#comment-2760 Rochelle Tue, 17 Jun 2008 16:17:11 +0000 http://www.tankingtips.com/2008/06/10/avoidance-outside-the-math-dodge-parry-defense-block/#comment-2760 In another thread I jokingly said something like 'who uses CC?'. And I got jumped on because while most people would have seen it as a joke, there might be some brand new tank who read it as truth. So I guess my whole crusade here is to make sure that that same brand new tank doesn't read this and assume that HS is a bad thing and that, "Well that all heroic strike is used for, rage dumping, nothing more, nothing less". Embrace HS. Its possible to use it too much and end up short on rage for a few seconds. But I promise, the boss is still going to hit you and you will get more rage in the short run. And being free with HS means you will have more threat in the long run. I think the biggest mistake people make regarding HS is assuming you get meaningful amounts of rage from your own white swing. In another thread I jokingly said something like ‘who uses CC?’. And I got jumped on because while most people would have seen it as a joke, there might be some brand new tank who read it as truth. So I guess my whole crusade here is to make sure that that same brand new tank doesn’t read this and assume that HS is a bad thing and that, “Well that all heroic strike is used for, rage dumping, nothing more, nothing less”.

Embrace HS. Its possible to use it too much and end up short on rage for a few seconds. But I promise, the boss is still going to hit you and you will get more rage in the short run. And being free with HS means you will have more threat in the long run. I think the biggest mistake people make regarding HS is assuming you get meaningful amounts of rage from your own white swing.

]]> By: Vrathmat http://www.tankingtips.com/2008/06/10/avoidance-outside-the-math-dodge-parry-defense-block/#comment-2756 Vrathmat Tue, 17 Jun 2008 14:39:48 +0000 http://www.tankingtips.com/2008/06/10/avoidance-outside-the-math-dodge-parry-defense-block/#comment-2756 lol, Rochelle. Dump isn't a bad word! But I suppose I'll support you if you want to petition that the tanking community start calling it "Excess Rage Control," "Rage Funneling" or something else. I'll admit that there is probably a more precise term. We get that you're saying we shouldn't treat HS like a red-headed stepchild, but I think most all of us understand how HS should be used because it's honestly not that complicated whether you're in Sunwell or Kara. If you're spamming your core rotation and have rage left, THEN start queuing HS, otherwise DON'T or you'll hit an avoidance streak and end up so rage starved you miss a shield block and look like a huge noob. So unless you're suggesting we start skipping a revenge or SS for HS (which I'm pretty sure you aren't), then is there something else you're getting at here? What exact behavior are you saying needs to change? Even if I decide to give HS an extra /hug now and then, I'm still not going to use it unless I have the extra rage for it. I like HS and the extra threat it gives, but as far as I'm concerned, it's only going to get attention as long as shield block and ss/rev/dev have been given rage first -- that applies no matter what dungeon I'm in. lol, Rochelle. Dump isn’t a bad word! But I suppose I’ll support you if you want to petition that the tanking community start calling it “Excess Rage Control,” “Rage Funneling” or something else. I’ll admit that there is probably a more precise term.

We get that you’re saying we shouldn’t treat HS like a red-headed stepchild, but I think most all of us understand how HS should be used because it’s honestly not that complicated whether you’re in Sunwell or Kara. If you’re spamming your core rotation and have rage left, THEN start queuing HS, otherwise DON’T or you’ll hit an avoidance streak and end up so rage starved you miss a shield block and look like a huge noob. So unless you’re suggesting we start skipping a revenge or SS for HS (which I’m pretty sure you aren’t), then is there something else you’re getting at here? What exact behavior are you saying needs to change? Even if I decide to give HS an extra /hug now and then, I’m still not going to use it unless I have the extra rage for it.

I like HS and the extra threat it gives, but as far as I’m concerned, it’s only going to get attention as long as shield block and ss/rev/dev have been given rage first — that applies no matter what dungeon I’m in.

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