Loading ...Warning: The following Talents are Hazardous
As we’ve learned there are numerous variations in how one can spec depending on the encounter which begs the question, how do we map this information? Well if you can’t determine what is right then instead determine what is wrong and all that will be left is truth 
If you’ve got a hazardous talent, it’s time to respec.
August 9th, 2008 at 7:06 pm
But…but how do I spec 12/11/51
??
[Reply]
admin reply on August 9, 2008 7:12 pm:
The point is to show what talents to avoid, not to determine what the best tanking spec is because doing so is impossible.
[Reply]
Kavtor reply on August 9, 2008 10:57 pm:
Lies.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LV0cZVbZ0EtoIzzcest
The only talent build you’ll need.
[Reply]
hpavc reply on August 10, 2008 9:16 am:
Until you want to quest in wotlk
Sanelora reply on August 13, 2008 7:37 pm:
Just realised one point in imp taunt.
Personally, i prefer that single point in imp shield wall for that potential life and raid saving 3 sec of 75% damage reduction. it kicked arse the first time we got Kalecgos to enrage! (close to) one shotted the main tank, i picked it up as soon as i got out of the demon realm and shield walled. Got him down with 1 sec on shield wall left (phew)
Blackavar reply on August 10, 2008 11:58 am:
It wasn’t a serious question.
[Reply]
August 9th, 2008 at 8:07 pm
This made me laugh, it is true as well!
[Reply]
August 9th, 2008 at 8:51 pm
I’m almost kinda wondering who said what to spark this. All though I do agree 100%
[Reply]
admin reply on August 9, 2008 9:19 pm:
Sounds like a good question for the next podcast, I’ll have to run it by my editor.
[Reply]
Ridlyblade reply on August 10, 2008 6:40 pm:
I think this also needs to be prefaced with “for raiding”…further down Imp revenge is giving raid situational applications, but it’s definitely nice for tanking heroics with lots of multimob tanking. Again situational…but if you find yourself just tanking heroics and not tanking in raids, I personally wouldn’t laugh at a guy for having it
[Reply]
Djiss reply on August 11, 2008 8:04 am:
Agree. I had imp revenge when I was doing a lot heroic and was only a OT in kara/gruul. But when I took the MT spot and became more geared, I specc’ed out of it.
August 9th, 2008 at 9:44 pm
You missed that nasty little “bull’s head” icon in the arms tree. That needs the Mr.Yuck sticker too
[Reply]
admin reply on August 9, 2008 10:35 pm:
Using a flawless SS > Rev > Dev > Dev cycle you’ll get 20 Devastates off in 1 minute. 1 point in Imp Sunder Armor = 20 rage in that flawless minute. (which never happens ever due to latency and shouts) 1 point in Anger Management = 20 Rage in 1 minute guaranteed. If you’ve already committed that many points to Arms, it’s definitely worth it. Better than spending your 11th point in the Arms tree in Imp Heroic Strike, in fact. (which isn’t to say a 12th point for the final Imp HS point isn’t worth doing sometimes too)
[Reply]
Machus reply on August 10, 2008 11:27 am:
Anger Management is lovely, as is 12/5/44 in general, if you are PuGing and not raiding at least. Threat issues? What threat issues? Lack of DPS? What lack of DPS?
[Reply]
August 9th, 2008 at 11:41 pm
I agree 99% but I must confess to being unable to give up Anger management as I do like to join in the PvP battleground now and then.
I’ve also got piercing howl, although you say that’s not hazordous so that’s cool. These 2 are essential for PvP and well worth the slight loss in tanking efficiency for me as I’m not generally participating in progression raid content anyway. If I do get invited on a 25 man I can always respec I suppose.
[Reply]
August 10th, 2008 at 2:09 am
I’ll admit I’m not a bleeding edge raiding MT, but I like to think that I’m a greater than above average tank who knows a bit about tanking.
So I disagree with Improved Revenge being a bad talent. I can’t tell you about the countless times its saved my bacon or saved me from having to use my GCD on a shield slam to stop a spell being cast. Also this extra stun, though unpredicable comes in handy whilst handling a multi-mob pull. But I must admit getting the knack of spotting the Revenge stun and automatically switching to another mob to generate more threat on it while the other is incapicitated may take some time to learn.
But thanks for the post. I think I’ll go respec and remove improved shield bash and try out Improved TC and Demoralising shout
[Reply]
vorp reply on August 11, 2008 11:21 am:
What talents are you losing then to make up for imp revenge?
True there are always situations where a stun is your best friend, but that’s why concussion blow is there. Imp revenge sounds like a crutch for you, no offense. I want the mob hitting me all the time, even in a multi mob pull. If you are finding the threat part a problem, throw a shield spike on your trash mob shield and use the Vengeance card. If the mitigation is a problem on multimob pulls, then work a bit more CC into your group makeup.
Talents are precious things, and I think you are cheating yourself out of more useful talents.
[Reply]
August 10th, 2008 at 6:31 am
I’m 17/3/41 spec. I’ll never argue that Impalet is a good tanking talent, it does is hazadous. But being a OT, I’m pretty happy with it so far for DPSing on bosses. But if I’m ever asked to MT Azgalor or Gorefiend, I know I would had to respec.
[Reply]
August 10th, 2008 at 9:11 am
Im in a guild thats working on Muru the the moment, I have found if your a side tank that Imp Revenge can be quite useful, since the waves of adds are stunable, and hit very very fast.
Keep in mind I would only use it for that fight, but as we know, when your min/maxing every little bit helps
[Reply]
admin reply on August 10, 2008 10:25 am:
I admit that Imp Revenge was one that I knew there’d be some push back ultimately I think you hit it on the head with prefacing your comment as a “side tank”. Imp Revenge 99% of the time is basically like specing into having a terrible rogue with you at all times. There’s that 1% of the time though that’s it’s pretty good. You certainly could spec into it for tanking Hyjal waves too.
[Reply]
August 10th, 2008 at 10:43 am
If all you do is run heroics and 10-mans (Hell, it works up to SW trash with badge tank gear) with non idiotic healers:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LV0cZVZfVtsfMzfxst
Dodging is for little girls and p******s, and while the 3 points in revenge are not the best talents in the box, getting a random stun in a big pull is just icing on the cake.
[Reply]
Rochelle reply on August 11, 2008 9:47 am:
zero points in anticipation, only 2/3 in defiance, 3/3 Tactical Mastery and 2/2 imp shield bash? You should probably put points into Improved Disarm to make that spec really super awesome.
[Reply]
admin reply on August 11, 2008 9:52 am:
There are very few aspects of the tanking world that aren’t subjective. That being said, any spec without 3/3 Defiance is immediately incorrect.
[Reply]
Irghen reply on August 11, 2008 1:02 pm:
Oh my god, hahaha; I misclicked that last point in Imp. revenge instead of Defiance. No no I wouldn’t skip all that expertise, specially not while going for what is basically a utility build.
Here it is corrected: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LV0cZVZfVtsfMzfxst
But yeah, I don’t really like anticipation, of course I’m gonna go for it if I’m MTing some new content, but then again I’d go for a full survival spec.
I guess what I wanted to go for with this was that I disagree that Tactical Mastery and Shield Bash are talents one should never spec into as a prot warrior, specially in 5 and 10-man content or during trash, like the Hyjal waves.
So, here’s my case for some of the crossed off talents:
Shield Bash:
This one is really useful to establish order by pulling casters near the party before they pull a new group, as well as to stop incoming damage or force melee out of a caster.
Bloodrage:
I know this one isn’t on but people dislike this one i think a bit too much, the ability to open with a slam and an early TC in 4+ mob pulls when you have no CC is priceless, not to mention you can basically ignore the skull for the remainder of the fight and not have any problems with it.
Tactical Mastery:
Hunter trap gets resisted, intervene and taunt are on cooldown… Zerker -> Intercept -> Battle -> Mocking Blow -> Defensive.
Last mob of the pull is about to die! Battle -> OOC -> Charge -> TC -> Def with a lot of rage to spare.
Vashj phase 2 chaos ruling: Zerker -> Zerker Rage -> Intercept strider -> Hamstring -> Def -> Intervene healer -> Bloodrage -> wait for Naga.
I know it’s nothing game breaking, or that would be actually useful to the guy Main Tanking Sunwell on opening day but I like having open options when things get out of hand.
[Reply]
Irghen reply on August 11, 2008 1:08 pm:
God, I need some classes on copy pasting, went and paste the same dumb link.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LV0cZVZfVtRIMzfxst
Kavtor reply on August 11, 2008 3:33 pm:
I was a big fan of Imp. Blood rage for a while to open with shield slams, but it’s really not that great, and you can get used to not using it.
It’s really only helpful off the pull, and even then, with misdirects, or the extra threat on the first few applications of devastate you can certainly skip it.
August 10th, 2008 at 11:31 am
Ha ha! This post is so true. A great way to answer the question of what is a good tank spec.
Do you think Blizzard made the useless talents with some kind of misguided good intentions, or are they just there to delay players, like trash mobs in instances?
[Reply]
admin reply on August 10, 2008 12:30 pm:
I think Blizzard actually did a pretty good job of the Protection Tree. Imp Disarm is probably the only truly weak talent in the whole bunch. Imp Revenge as we’ve just read a few comments has some application, but I can’t stress enough how bad this talent is 99% of the time. We as tanks should be specing for the boss not for the trash mobs. For this reason, Imp Revenge really is only useful for wave style encounters. Finally, Imp Shield Bash is excellent for positioning casters, but as we learn through our raiding careers that’s basically never applicable to boss encounters.
[Reply]
August 10th, 2008 at 2:52 pm
Ive only found 2 reasons for spec’ing imp revenge and imp shield bash, those being the trash waves in Hyjal. Imp shield bash for moving the necros into the AoE, and imp revenge for stunning those damn A-Bombs who like to drink pally juice out of a steel cup.
But otherwise good post and if you do ever have someone ask “what should i spec as a tank for a raid” you can just show them this picture and say, “as long as it doesnt have a cross through it, its safe”
[Reply]
August 10th, 2008 at 3:58 pm
I put one point into Tactical Mastery inorder to keep all 15 rage points when I switch to defensive stance mid-charge and to keep a bit of rage for the other ocational stance shifts. If I diddn’t take that point I’d probably miss it more thaan I’m currently miss Improved Taunt.
[Reply]
August 10th, 2008 at 5:18 pm
Don’t overlook Imp Shield Bash in WOTLK
[Reply]
August 10th, 2008 at 7:38 pm
You made a mistake there. You didn’t block out improved taunt. Talents like this really shouldn’t be considered when ANY other option is available. Threat management is a skill all players have to learn sooner or later. Why waste points in your spec to babysit bad DPS?
[Reply]
Kavtor reply on August 10, 2008 10:41 pm:
Imp. Taunt is pretty nice for some fights. Helps a lot if your first one resists.
Try tanking Hyjal with out a pally, and with out imp. taunt. Yikes.
That said, I really only put one point in as filler to get further up the tree, considering the mediocrity of the other options.
[Reply]
Speidel reply on August 10, 2008 11:09 pm:
And why should I hold back on DPS because you’re too lazy to use taunt? I hate this mentality of being too good to use taunt so much.
Maybe your threat isn’t good enough. You have no right to blame other people while you purposely refuse to use your abilities.
[Reply]
PieterB reply on August 11, 2008 4:19 am:
Talents considered are for raiding. In particular raidbosses.
On most raidbosses taunt doesn’t work. Making your comment kind of weird.
[Reply]
Kavtor reply on August 11, 2008 7:50 am:
Imp. Taunt is good for learning the first three bosses in Sunwell when something goes wrong.
Kalec taunt resist -> mocking blow -> taunt while the other tanks in a different realm
Brut resist (1% chance) -> mocking blow -> taunt (my first kill as a tank came off of a taunt resist recovery)
While learning Felmyst, being able to taunt mobs off of priests who aren’t smart enough to stand in the concecrate and not out heal the guys in plate / mail.
All of which will save a wipe.
vorp reply on August 11, 2008 11:44 am:
@Spiedel
I’m a lazy tank because I won’t taunt? When I tank, I am busting my ass to get all the threat I can. My DPS always pushes the envelope, and I have to get better. I’ll use taunt when I need to. But I cannot justify spending two talent points on imp taunt because I should not need to taunt every 8 seconds. If I do, either I suck at tanking, or my dps is being retarded. Either way, I could not use imp taunt in a regular raiding or 5 man spec. Sure it might be good in Hyjal, but I’m not in Hyjal yet so I’ll spec the way I need to when I get there, if I get there.
One of the fundamental challenges for DPS class, per the wow website, is aggro management. If my DPS is into pulling off me, they better be into dying and probably wiping the group. They’ll learn. As it was said before, it is not the tanks job to babysit retarded DPSers. So why should I spec into something that is just accomodating their poor playing?
[Reply]
Ridlyblade reply on August 11, 2008 4:21 pm:
but it’s also the tanks job to allow the melee dpsers to do more than auto attack when ever bloodlust/heroism is popped (95% of the time that’s my case)…if i can give a tank a 15sec/60k threat headstart before i even battle shout and still pull aggro…something is wrong
PsyWulf reply on August 15, 2008 1:50 am:
Heh,I hear that. I do use taunt during a trash-fight if I know there isnt another mob waiting with 20k aggro locked to healers,sometimes a saving grace if one of our casters is on a omgwtfcritstreak with 4ktps instantly bearing down my neck so I can get the rage to lock him down to me ’till their tps dies down again.
However I won’t spend points into improved taunt as that extra cd reduction aint wort it to me
Ioseb reply on August 13, 2008 4:19 pm:
Taunt should never be used if everyone is going will except on gimic fights. In 5 mans DPS should limit themselves, try to understand game mechanics and work with that. In raid if someone pulls aggro this will usually mean that person is dead, reducing their DPS by about 100%
I have often completed heroics quickly with no deaths and never even touch the taunt button. I almost never taunt in raid unless on trash and I want to peel mobs off another tank.
Until you reach later content unless you outgear a tank if they are playing properly threat shouldn’t even be an issue. Anyone who has tanked with warlock DPS in BT/Sunwell knows how annoying that is.
Also I’m not sure if you understand how improved taunt works. It doesn’t give you super taunt. It only reduces the cooldown from 10 to 8. If you are pulling aggro every 10 seconds either you or your tank have a serious problem, and allowing you to pull every 8 seconds instead is not going to fix this.
I suppose my biggest issue is the points in imp taunt can be spent on other talents that actually improved your TPS. If most tanks specced into these they wouldn’t even need imp taunt!
@Ridlyblade: Yes in that situation some is VERY wrong. Either you are in BT gear running with tanks wearing blues and greens or your tank is horrible. 2 little talent points are not going to rectify either of these.
@Kavtor: My guild isn’t too far into sunwell yet but I admit I didn’t really consider it. But you still have to accept for 99-100% of the average tanks career these talent points can be better spent.
[Reply]
vorp reply on August 14, 2008 11:48 am:
@Ioseb
Agree 100% with everything you stated. Your reference to “super taunt” was hilarious.
August 10th, 2008 at 8:44 pm
Everytime I do a 5 man without 3/3 TM I want to shove a fork in my eye. I would really prefer to have it all the time because it doesn’t feel proper to be a warrior without it but its hard to justify in a raiding build.
[Reply]
Pryscilla reply on August 11, 2008 11:47 am:
I have to agree; if my warrior (technically an alt, but a very well-geared one who plays backup to our main tanks) was raid tanking all the time, I could see dropping TM, but the rage savings in any dynamic tanking environment where you have to swap stances.
Any fear-break encounter, any pseudo-AOE pull (tclap, ww, bloodrage, tclap), anytime you need to intercept a mob to stun it, you’re saving a best-case 10 rage per talent point per stance dance (15 to dance, 15 to dance back, across 3 talent points). Shift twice a minute and it’s at the same level as AM for rage savings.
I feel naked without this talent from the sheer number of options it provides. For heroics, the ability to frontload aoe threat w/ a whirlwind (or when tanking dragonhawk adds on bear runs in ZA), is an underestimated tanking tactic.
[Reply]
August 10th, 2008 at 9:19 pm
What’s wrong with tactical mastery? I’ve used it so many times to pull of nonsense I can’t even imagine running without it. Saving rage while stance-dancing for fear is a handy way to prevent starvation that lets down shield block, and with a little micromanagement you can shield block->battle stance->execute->bloodrage->execute->defensive stance->shield block towards the end of dps sensitive fights(assuming you have a reasonably safe threat lead). It’s also good to have when you’re not tanking in a raid(like a warrior and pally tank doing the eagle boss in ZA) when you have to swap from battle to berserk to supply both whirlwind and thunderclap.
I think I’ve had to solo heroic murmur down from 10% half a dozen times from dps not getting the hang of running out and back in. Shield wall + execute ftw!
Once on heroic magister’s terrace all my group died to the damage in phase 2 and I used last stand then bloodrage+execute to do the final damage that killed Kael’thas. Tactical mastery in that fight lets me switch between defensive to take less damage from the AOE and berserk to do more damage while he’s stunned.
[Reply]
orla reply on August 12, 2008 9:57 am:
the reason tactical mastery is looked down upon for main spec tanks is that it holds no real reason in raid encounters. In 5 mans and for dps/pvp specs, it still allows them to do stance dancing to hit an overpower and then switch back to zerker without having to lose all but 10 of their rage. As a tank, the only time you’ll use a stance dance is to use beserkers rage, and you’ll be switching back instantly (i dont know how i lived without the fear dance macro)
All in all, for tanks in raid encounters, TM is horrible because you wont be using MS or Blood Thirst so you lose half of the talent, and if your being needed to DPS in a raid…something is very very wrong and its not you.
[Reply]
Ridlyblade reply on August 12, 2008 4:58 pm:
There’s situational fights where it’s ok to be the MT and toss on your dps gear, but you’d still never have TM for it.
Solarian is a pally tank friendly fight. Since Solarian has no real aggro table phase 1 and the dudes are better controlled by a pally, before I became full time DPS, I let the pally tank tank it and I tossed on my DPS gear. I just then lol’d at everybody I out gamed that fight. =P
[Reply]
Khrushchev reply on August 12, 2008 7:01 pm:
TM holds no value for 25 man raid tanking, true. My warrior however is my only level 70 toon. 1 point in TM means that I can solo/grind/do daylies and not ever have to worry about rage or a respec just for farming. It would be nice if we could all spec for one role and one role only. For a great many of us, however, that just isn’t feasible. 11/5/45 is what I run. Works great in 5 mans, Kara, and solo.
August 11th, 2008 at 5:50 am
But…but rend is awesome!!
[Reply]
Jimbabwe reply on August 11, 2008 8:14 am:
what’s rend?
[Reply]
Talisman reply on August 11, 2008 9:33 pm:
He’s an old school UBRS boss. Beyond that, /shrug
[Reply]
August 11th, 2008 at 12:21 pm
A great post Vene. Even with so many crossed out there are many different specs for different situations. It has been a while since I have changed any thing with my spec so maybe I’ll play around a little.
[Reply]
August 11th, 2008 at 12:50 pm
the other warrior tank in my guild still has imp shield bash… and he barks at me for giving him advice to the contrary.
[Reply]
Hao reply on August 11, 2008 12:59 pm:
our guild just transfered servers and we are still recruiting people for 25man content. This and the enchant list that you show on your previous blog post will be very helpful if we ever get enough ppl for them. Thx vene!
[Reply]
orla reply on August 12, 2008 10:00 am:
it depends on what level of raiding you are at, if its just some lower level stuff, or if you guys are really working hard in hyjal, it does have some use (pulling necros into the aoe)
Also it does help in prot war pvp, nothing like pulling a rogue and not allowing them to cast any spell for a bit if you pull it off right
[Reply]
Hao reply on August 12, 2008 10:51 am:
We are entry level at 25mans, past kara and farming one boss in ZA. We need to get people geared and kara is really our only option as we can’t get enough people for gruul and we aren’t geared enough for ZA.
Yes, the other tank in the guild has imp shield bash and only going through raids.
[Reply]
August 11th, 2008 at 3:49 pm
Heh. I had to pull up a talent calculator because I couldn’t even remember what those talents are that you crossed-out. They might as well belong to a different class.
[Reply]
Vrathmat reply on August 12, 2008 7:10 am:
lol, I did the same thing.
[Reply]
August 12th, 2008 at 3:00 am
Impale is funny prot PvP
(refer to Cider’s comments
So true what you have said vene!
i run with 8/7/46 like Kav said before: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LV0cZVbZ0EtoIzzcest
that said, i frequently respec to MS for brutallus/felmyst:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LV0tzAboxMdZVx0V0gRc
33/28/0
[Reply]
Sanelora reply on August 12, 2008 3:09 am:
Doh! meant to say afterwards, i look at all the other potential talents that i could take when i spec back to prot and for my situation (rotating “OT”/”MT” in sunwell) i feel that 8/7/46 is just the best i can do!
[Reply]
August 13th, 2008 at 8:40 pm
i really prefer Imp Shield bash over imp taunt or shield wall , incase you lag miss the cast you still get a little safty zone
[Reply]
August 14th, 2008 at 3:16 am
I must admit tha ti use Improved Revenge, giveing a 45% chance to stun target. This is very usefull on trash in matters of survival as you will get a sec or two to give the healer a chance to heal you fully up. It allso often breaks casts from various mobs and it does not share dimishing returns with Concussion Blow.
Im only doing Kara (ZA) and HC’s and very fiew of the mobs are immune to stuns, so for HC, 10 mans and as Off Tank, i would say its a “must have” tallent…
[Reply]
August 15th, 2008 at 8:40 am
plain and simple… everyone has said that some of the “poison talents” have some use. I agree. and I’m a MT.
yeah, I tank bosses… but it’s not like I sit on my hands directing traffic on trash fights. I’m there too. while Boss encounters are where I do my main job, I’d be an idiot if I thought boss fights were all I was supposed to do. so while my spec (8/5/48) isn’t OPTIMAL for just tanking bosses, what talents I DO have tend to make my job easier.
above all this, remember one thing: YMMV. I miss Piercing howl, I have no clue how anger management would help me now. but I know that imp Wall gives the healers some extra leeway in mana usage for a longer period of time, and imp shield bash means some trash fights are shorter when healers aren’t healing, and casters aren’t casting.
my $.02, and I’m sticking to it. GREAT article, if only for the debate.
[Reply]
August 15th, 2008 at 11:00 am
Here is my exprience..I have tanked with two different sets of talent..11/0/50 and 8/5/48..i have noticed with 8/5/48 i am doing better for genereating threat..i can tank 3 targets with that combination..i will suggest to put point in cruelty instead of anger management and heroic strike..because
1) generating rage should not be issue for any tank..
2) you have to use hoeric strike while cruelty is passive talent so its always there..
other than that sometimes it depends on gear and what you are comfortable with..i had threat issue and it got solved…by use 8/5/48…
[Reply]
Khrushchev reply on August 15, 2008 3:16 pm:
Rage is typically not an issue on a boss fight. On trash and in 5-mans, it can be. While cruelty is typically the best place to put extra points (it can’t hurt), the actual return on your investment towards your TPS is pretty dismal.
[Reply]