Loading ...Dodge > Parry, Always.
18.9 Dodge Rating = 1% Avoidance
23.65 Parry Rating = 1% Avoidance
You get 5 gem slots
5x 10 Parry Rating = 50/23.65 = 2.11% Avoidance
5x 10 Dodge Rating = 50/18.9 = 2.65% Avoidance
So, there’s an obvious Avoidance advantage for Dodge gems, but we already knew that and the Parry advocates admit that. Parry advocates claim is always the same… Parry provides threat. Dodge doesn’t.
5x 10 Parry Rating = 50/23.65 = 2.11% Avoidance
4x 10 Dodge Rating = 40/18.9 = 2.11% Avoidance
That’s right it only takes 4 Dodge gems to give the equivalent amount of Avoidance that 5 Parry gems offers. Literally you are wasting a full Avoidance socket by pursuing Parry over Dodge. Guess what though…
1x 10 Hit Rating = 10/15.8 = 0.63% Hit Chance
You’re also wasting a full Threat socket too. Anytime I look over the math of anyone trying to attempt to show how much rage or how much threat based on their weapon damage Parry is achieving, it’s always just an endless sea of assumptions that really just don’t amount to anything tangible.
0.63% Hit > Endless Sea of Assumptions
It’s that simple. Dodge is always better than Parry. If you want more threat, socket for Hit.
October 1st, 2008 at 3:19 pm
Hmm, that’s a really good point. I’m pretty sure we’ve already covered that Parry > Dodge before but the fact that 50 parry = 40 dodge and leaves space for a real threat gem pretty much ends the argument.
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October 1st, 2008 at 4:01 pm
Good point, however it will be interesting to see how all this develops in Wrath with it’s diminishing returns.
Then again in general geming for dodge / parry has little use in most cases in the current game.
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Kilrak reply on October 1, 2008 4:46 pm:
Yar I agree yar
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October 1st, 2008 at 4:46 pm
I think this post just reiterates the fact that Dodge is always better then Parry. What we’re gonna have to look at in WotLK at least for warriors and paladins is how well it compares to block.
Now that block actually gives a good way to mitigate damage without rage/mana starving us and its easier to get more percent mitigation from block rating compared dodge rating. Does block have DR on it as well?
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Archfiend reply on October 1, 2008 5:09 pm:
Block does not appear to have diminishing returns (based simply on the tooltip).
The block/dodge comparison isn’t really analogous, but if the choice is between one or the other, my gut instinct is to say block to take advantage of various talents. That’s assuming you’re not expecting to take hits so big that you need enough pure avoidance to give your healers time to keep you up.
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Albinobeard reply on October 1, 2008 5:24 pm:
I’ve been seeing this argument alot lately and I’m willing ot stand behind it, if you’re blocking, you’re allow damage to still get through. This in turn normalizes the damage you take over time. I’m pretty sure any healer would prefer you get an average amount of damage of a long period of time rather then get horrendous spike damage at random intervals.
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October 1st, 2008 at 7:39 pm
dodge is the single easiest way to avoid damage with no repercussions. Yes, id rather parry an attack than have it hit me, but stacking parry is just not bad itemization, it can also lead to you getting insta-gibbed if ones expertise is not high enough (read: any tank not in sunwell)
ive always had to argue with some people (dpsers/theorycrafters) that its just not smart, now i can show this to them to shut em up
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Hydrix reply on October 2, 2008 2:27 am:
Hey now, I’m not in sunwell and I run 47 expertise in my expertise set.
Just saying
PS - Parry > Dodge cuz I can attack faster and give me more rage and then I can use my special abilities, assuming x, y, z and the sun is aligned with my porch and I lift my left leg 3 inchs into the air and click with exactly 42 PSI and Vene is blinking when it happens.
Yup, true story.
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October 1st, 2008 at 7:44 pm
He speaks the truth, yet again. To go off on some kind of insane RP tangent….doesn;t parrying an attack, for a warrior, seem more likely than dodging it? I mean, one wouldn’t expect to hear of a medevil battle in which to knights with swords and shields fought, and were just jumping around the whole time, instead of parrying (much easier when you consider the weight and constrictions of armor).
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Dezdemone reply on October 2, 2008 7:00 am:
Ok, I will bite. I probably shouldn’t, but I can’t resist.
If I were to picture an RP Battle I would expect the Warrior to block. I would expect a Death knight with their big two handed sword to parry. Druids make a little more sense to be dodging. So if you’re stuck on RP a warrior wouldn’t have avoidance at all, just tons of block.
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BobTurkey reply on October 2, 2008 7:42 pm:
Two things:
1) knights in plate armour were a lot more mobile than you think. Plate armoured combatants as kinda giant bricks is a ‘movie’ interpretation of them and not historically accurate.
2) avoiding a weapon swung at you (by dodging) is actually easier than you might think.
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Draco reply on October 3, 2008 2:53 pm:
Well actually if you really look at it from an RP standpoint… dodging works a whole lot better against a 6 story monster than trying to parry its massive mace or w/e weapon it happens to be holding… but block i guess works too though it’d knock you into a wall. But yeah blocking an attack should absorb all the damage or at least a good portion of it
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October 1st, 2008 at 7:45 pm
Darn, we can’t edit posts.
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October 1st, 2008 at 10:18 pm
Good post.
Let’s just leave the parrying extravaganza to the death kniggets for the most part, eh? They got to worry about parry a bit more since they can’t block I think.
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Kilrak reply on October 2, 2008 10:03 am:
Mmmm new phrase that makes me giggle like a school girl- Death Kniggets
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October 1st, 2008 at 10:28 pm
The Only time I will use a Parry gem over a Dodge gem is If I get one from a Heroic Dungeon, and I don’t have access to a Dodge gem right away. So this has only happened once.. and eventually was replaced.
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October 2nd, 2008 at 12:37 am
In the case you described, YES, dodge is definitely better. I always gem for dodge over parry, I don’t think I have ever used a parry gem.
However there are qualifications if you want to use the word “always.” Dodge>Parry Always, with current itemization, all other things being equal, when choosing between items of current item level, etc.
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October 2nd, 2008 at 12:55 am
In the beginning I always wondered what the heck we should dodge for. I think it’s the wrong thing to to for a warrior. As Thedrawrf said: We’re running around in heavy plate mail armor and then elegangtly dodge that sword like a little agile fairy. Don’t think so.
For the sake of some more warrior-feel-alike gaming we shouldn’t avoid much damage at all, but mitigate way more. Let druids doge, paladins magically do stuff, but let us just soak it all up.
We’re weilding huge shields, however only seem to use them occasionally. But I’m arguing about logic in a game wherein most pigs don’t have intestines …
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Meatgazer reply on October 2, 2008 6:25 am:
Or blood…
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Hydrix reply on October 2, 2008 7:11 am:
Or raptors don’t have hearts/eyes. Damn you arathi highlands quests.
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Orla reply on October 3, 2008 9:07 am:
friend and i were lvling alts there, they didnt drop eyes. I asked how they can see without eyes, to which he replied “Fecking raptor-bats”
October 2nd, 2008 at 4:39 am
As you so clearly put, 1 dodge > 1 parry. A similar point which I feel is necessary to mention, however, is 5 parry > 4 dodge.
The reasoning behind 5 parry > 4 dodge is similar to the reasoning behind 1 dodge > 1 parry. 5 parry provides the same defensive value (avoidance) as 4 dodge, but whereas dodge has merely defensive value, parry does have some offensive value (namely parry haste). Precisely how much offensive value 5 parry gives is irrelevant, the fact that there is any means 5 parry provides value above and beyond 4 dodge.
Taken together, you get 1 Parry
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Reydien reply on October 2, 2008 4:51 am:
(huh, it seems the form cut off the last few paragraphs of my reply, I’ll try to restate it)
Taken together, you get 1 parry
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Reydien reply on October 2, 2008 4:56 am:
OK, so the comment submission form dislikes the less-than symbol, and seems to eat up the rest of the text after said symbol. Might wanna look into that. As far as what I was trying to post, I really don’t feel like typing it out a third time, so I’ll just finish the sentence that got chopped off:
1.25 Parry > 1 Dodge > 1 Parry. In other words, don’t avoid Parry rating like the plague, there are times when it is worth taking.
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Reydien reply on October 2, 2008 6:35 am:
I suppose a note that needs to be made (because I was lazy to begin with), I am talking about dodge Rating vs parry Rating in my posts.
October 2nd, 2008 at 6:17 am
The current lvl 70 WoTLK protection build I’ve been working on, wouldn’t be full on the dodge talent (protection), but would be 5/5 on the parry talent (arms)
Point being: I’m not stacking the dodge talent fully, since I don’t have enough points spare to fill out both.
If I need to pick between 5% parry + 2% dodge, or 2% parry + 5% dodge I think the first option is a better value =)
/Kusje out
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Orenus reply on October 2, 2008 6:49 am:
Well now you’re talking about percentages, which are a whole different animal. 1% parry > 1% dodge, but 1 dodge *rating* > 1 parry *rating*.
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Kavtor reply on October 2, 2008 8:52 am:
Sure parry is better than dodge, but what can you possibly pick that’s better than taking upwards of 1% less damage with a talent point? I can’t see any reason not to be maxing the dodge and parry talents. Our threat is getting such an enormous boost, I’m sure you can drop a pretty ‘big numbers’ talent or two. Unless the content is so easy that tank death isn’t a concern.
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Machus reply on October 3, 2008 10:48 pm:
Indeed, I can see myself dropping points from Anticipation before Deflection. At least they are in the right place: 1% parry > 1% dodge, and climbing Arms is more likely what you want.
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October 2nd, 2008 at 8:24 am
I got an argument with a friend about the new talent in LK.
I say 5/5 Deflecting is a better investment for 5 talents point than 5/5 Anticipation, because we can easily get more +dodge from dodge rating gem/gear than parry from with parry rating gem/gear, since parry cost more than dodge. Considering that, for me 5/5 Deflection and 4/5 Anticipation is better than 4/5 Deflection and 5/5 Anticipation.
He disagree.
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Djiss reply on October 2, 2008 8:25 am:
Well, Kusje came up with the same point.
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Ruex reply on October 2, 2008 9:41 pm:
shouldn’t matter, because you should be maxing both.
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Orla reply on October 3, 2008 9:10 am:
On the talents deflection and anticipation this doesnt matter because they each give you a 5% flat increase. Also, you should be maximizing both.
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October 2nd, 2008 at 9:41 am
Is anyone really planning not being in the position of 5/5 Anticipation and 5/5 Deflection at lvl 80? Or are we just arguing from the parry> dodge point of view? Another point that I’d like to bring up is that parry has DR as well, so are we going to get to a point where dodge is at a certain percentage that we’ll want to start focusing on parry?
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admin reply on October 2, 2008 9:53 am:
You can expect that DR will be against your Total Avoidance against stacking one or the other.
Indeed, it’s true that 5/5 Deflection does offer more than 5/5 Anticipation, but neither of these talents should ever be dropped from any build. Even at level 70 it makes little sense to not have both.
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Kavtor reply on October 2, 2008 10:55 am:
The way I think the DR works ( I’m not an authority by any means) is that talents aren’t effected by DR, and the DR calculations on avoidance work individually on dodge and parry.
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Ivanstone reply on October 7, 2008 10:15 am:
http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t29453-combat_ratings_level_80_a/
According to this post each avoidance stat has a separate DR that is calculated after all gear and buffs. Your base avoidance stats and avoidance talents that are unrelated to gear are not affected by DR.
So the question becomes how can you work this into your favour? I did a little math. Assume 689 Defense Rating (enough to become uncrittable), 50 Agility (buffs) and 700 Dodge Rating. Where do you go from there? As it turns out, its parry rating. If you add an additional 100 Dodge Rating, you’ll gain about 0.57% dodge. If you add an additional 100 Parry Rating, you’ll gain about 0.63% parry. These stats are also quite obtainable in Naxx gear although in practice most pieces are diverse enough that you can’t completely eschew parry rating for dodge rating. Most Wrath raid tanking pieces have 5 stats on them and seeing gear with dodge, defense and parry aren’t unusual.
In practice you’ll probably wanna stack defense regardless if you’re trying to pump avoidance. Its inherently diverse to begin with and contains the non-diminishing stat, block chance. Nevertheless worth thinking about at very high levels of gear.
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Veneretio reply on October 7, 2008 10:58 am:
lewl looks like I’ll be re-writing this article for WotLK too.
October 2nd, 2008 at 10:59 am
All I know is with 25% parry on my gear, vrs 25% dodge set, my TPS output according to KTM was about 50 points higher, granted this is all at level 54. 130ish vrs 180ish roughly. dps output higher as well. the 25% parry gear set, with mongoose chanted on wepon made it a pretty huge diffrence. My sword and board didnt chant from 1 set to the next, flurry axe with wall of the dead. Flurry axe grants extra swing, mongoose chant, and parry bonus made one heack of a TPS jump over 25% dodge set for a 54 tank.
I understand the reason dodge is the staple, but I think parry build is still over looked. I’m accustomed to keeping multipule sets of gear, and it will be no diffrent as a tank. I plan to tank basiaclly all trash in a parry build, and most bosses in a EH. But I will be aquireing a dodge set as well for those really nasty hard hitters.
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Veneretio reply on October 2, 2008 11:03 am:
This makes no sense. The whole point of what the article proves is that if you want a balance of Avoidance and Threat you are always better to stack a bit of Dodge and a bit of Hit Rating rather than straight Parry.
Watching a threat meter isn’t a great test of threat performance either as just b/c you see spikes of a high amount of threat doesn’t mean that your consistent threat is strong.
Just follow the math, it won’t lead you astray.
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MadTanker reply on October 2, 2008 11:07 am:
well ven, i tried as best i could to make the test a balanced one, the 2 sets i used were very close in stats, and used the same wep/sheild. I used the exact same rotation, and even accounted for crits.
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Meatgazer reply on October 2, 2008 1:29 pm:
Comparing 25% parry to 25% dodge is apples to oranges. The 25% parry set would have higher item levels because of better itemization (1% parry is more itemization than 1% dodge).
Now, comparing 25% parry to 25% dodge + 5% hit would be closer to comparing apples to apples, because itemization would be closer to equal.
Arvernien reply on October 2, 2008 11:43 am:
First I think to really do this test you’d need a level 70 protection warrior
in the same gear each time and only change 6 or so gems around. Too many other factors could be affecting the test - like changes in strength or crit rating or something.
Second, I can see how parrying attacks can cause a jump in the proc rate for mongoose. With parries you’ll seeing a slight increase in attack frequency which could cause a slight increase in the mongoose proc frequency.’
Third - at level 54 parry and dodge ratings probably have different rating to
percentage chance ratios. At level 70 parry may be a little bit tweaked to
prevent people from exploiting the attack speed increase from parries.
A better comparison would be keeping every thing static except say +5% parry vs +5% dodge. Fortunately we’ll be able to just this after the patch. Set up a toon with a decent tanking gear set and spend all the talent points except for 5 (without spending any points on Deflection or Anticipation). Spend the 5 on anticipation (5% dodge) and see what the TPS values are. Then resepc keeping everything else the same except spend the last 5 points on Deflection.
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Dezdemone reply on October 3, 2008 7:29 am:
I think this conversation got derailed at mile marker 3.
There’s no question that an equal *percentage* of parry will generate more threat than an equal *percentage* of dodge.
What I believe Vene is trying to say is that you will reap more benefit from gemming/gearing for **dodge AND hit** than for parry.
Why? You ask, because Parry has a much higher itemization cost so it’s a LOT harder to get.
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MadTanker reply on October 3, 2008 11:35 am:
For me the cost is a mute point, dailies on 3-4 toons and ta-da, i can make as much as 10k in one day. So i’m assuming anyhring bought is basiaclly there for the taking, and i have the luxuray of several theory crafters in the guild who might be interested in finding out how it plays out lol.
MadTanker reply on October 3, 2008 11:35 am:
^^^anything bought*
admin reply on October 3, 2008 12:23 pm:
She’s not talking about gold, she’s talking about item budget. Every item has a budget and is given an amount of rating based on that cost. 1 Parry Rating, 1 Dodge Rating and 1 Hit Rating are all equal in cost. This article is showing you that by avoiding Parry (especially when it comes to socketing) you get the best outcome on all front.
5 Parry Rating has the same cost on an item as 4 Dodge Rating and 1 Hit Rating. They’ll both result in the same avoidance, but the Dodge + Hit example will be more threat.
In the case of socketing, it’s better to use 5 slots for 4 dodge gems and 1 hit gem rather than 5 parry gems b/c the result is equal avoidance and more threat.
It’s a complete win. There’s no trade off. It’s all win for the dodge/hit team and all lose for the parry team. It’s like choosing between the following items.
Item 1:
20% Avoidance
3% Hit
Item 2:
20% Avoidance
The choice is easy.
October 2nd, 2008 at 11:05 am
^^ btw, i say all this cause ive never been a normal player, my warlock tanks heroics…..no bullshit, and holds aggro pretty well as long as the dps understands the method a warlock needs to acomplish this. Warlock tanking was a need discovery for me, we needed a tank for ramps. sl/sl build is pretty damn resiliant. the point is, if anyone can make this build effectivly work, I can. we shall see what happens.
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October 2nd, 2008 at 11:15 am
I guess I should also point out, I have 9 level 70 toons, 4 fairly well geared, and my lock is damn respectable. I build toons now “out of the mold” to see what else is viable, and if done right can equal the molds performance, yet be a creation all my own. And sry for the post clutter btw.
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October 2nd, 2008 at 1:28 pm
So… I understand taht Dodge is greater than parry etc etc. My question is: As we are taught we should gem and enchant for the strengths of the item… IE Defense on a high defense piece, Dodge on a high dodge piece.
I have the Axe from Zul’Jin and a set of the parry boots from Chess in my avoidance set (well i have sun eater for my avoidnace, but i have the clever in the event i need some more expertise to not get wtfpwned) Anyway. I gemmed the Clever with the Parry/Def Gem from a heroic, and I gemmed the boots with an 8 parry red gem/purple parry/stam heroic gem to unlock the parry socket bonus. IMO ( and mind you there are no numbers to back this up, just gut instinct) i got more miliage out of the parry hybrid gems than i would if i were just gemming straight dodge. I could be crazy though.
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Veneretio reply on October 2, 2008 2:07 pm:
When enchanting/gemming for the strength of the item. You are looking at it in terms of Threat, Effective Health and Avoidance. Those avenues can be pursued via Hit Rating, Stamina and Dodge when it comes to gemming. It gets more complex when it comes to enchants though which is why this stuff is cover in a post in itself previously:
http://www.tankingtips.com/2008/08/05/the-fundamental-gearing-principle/
So to use your Cleaver as an example, the parry on it would be treated as avoidance. So if you wanted to make it a better avoidance item, you’d socket it for dodge.
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Gorrack reply on October 6, 2008 11:34 am:
Understood, I was taking you literally in that if you have parry on the thing, you gem the thing with parry, dodge for dodge, EH for EH etc etc
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Meatgazer reply on October 2, 2008 2:09 pm:
Dodge is the best itemization for avoidance and has the same color as parry. It’s hard to beat. However, in the case of the purple heroic parry gems, you can see equivalence, as long as your other option is a blue gem.
The heroic gems you used definitely pull their weight. But for the 8 parry gem, you’d get a better return from a +8 dodge gem.
End result:
Over +8 dodge/+8 dodge/ +4 dodge +6 stam gemming:
+3 stamina
-0.097% avoidance
Over +8 dodge/ +5 parry +4 def/ +5 parry +6 stam
-0.085% avoidance
In the end, it’s hard to actually see the difference between 50% avoidance and 50.085% avoidance. That’s why we have to rely on theorycrafting to see these differences. That’s why there are so many rumors about tanking that are hard to bust. People are tanking high level raids without optimal gear/talents/skill rotations. If there were drastic differences, there would be only one way to tank.
However, that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t do everything in your power to be the best possible tank you can be.
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October 2nd, 2008 at 2:43 pm
Come WOTLK we’ll have some sexy new options for red gems that will make parry even less attractive: expertise will be a red color gem!
Also strength is becoming a valid option for threat gear gemming, especially for a “trash set” where you might be at the cap for hit and expertise from your items already.
Also the list of new gems I’ve seen had way more possible combinations for mixed-color gems, like expertise/stamina, dodge/stamina as purple gems. With those new choices I think parry gems are becoming even less attractive…
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October 2nd, 2008 at 8:14 pm
OK…
1 Dodge > 1 Parry = More Avoidance
Parry = more threat than dodge sure BUT has anyone here actually worked out how much faster you swing with 1 Parry? I guess not, also anyone tried to stack parry to actually get enough parry to give you a decent amount of threat? No becuase its REALLY REALLY hard and you lose a lot of dodge (ie more avoidance) trying to do it.
Parry in TBC increases the chances that you can get parry gibbed by the boss = not good.
As stated +hit and +expertise gives you way more threat than any amount of gear that will give you parry.
The reason why we put 5 pts into increased parry is because at the moment we want imp thunderclap and being a tank parry (avoidance) is better than rend/heroic strike (rage dump/useless dot).
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megagrogan reply on October 3, 2008 4:38 am:
the reason why we put (well, me anyway) 5 points into imp parry is for an easy 5% avoidance…
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Rustyboy reply on October 3, 2008 6:50 pm:
Ok.. I’ll clear it up a bit..
Of course.. but I was referring to a comment made that was deciding between putting pts into parry/dodge in the new talents.
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Albinobeard reply on October 3, 2008 6:12 am:
Now, I may be wrong here but I’m pretty sure I’m not, getting your parry rating up does NOT increase your chance to get instagibbed. When you parry your swing speed is increased not the mobs. I can’t tell by the way your comment was setup but you may have been refering to expertise which would help your threat and cause you not to get instagibbed.
Also, if you think the only reason protection warriors get deflection is so that they can grab Improved Thunder Clap, you would be a very ignorant tank. Whenever you can get five percentage points of mitigation for five talent points, its worth it.
Like Veneretio said above, “Indeed, it’s true that 5/5 Deflection does offer more than 5/5 Anticipation, but neither of these talents should ever be dropped from any build. Even at level 70 it makes little sense to not have both.”
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Meatgazer reply on October 3, 2008 7:29 am:
I think a common misconception is that if you parry, your attack speeds up, and you can get parried faster and get instant-gibbed. But remember, you only get destroyed if you get hit, get parried, get hit. If you parry, get parried, get hit, you’re still only hit once.
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Kavtor reply on October 3, 2008 7:29 am:
Actually it does, by a fairly negligable amount.
When you parry the boss, you get to counter attack him with a hasted swing (calculated by a mildly complicated table depending on where your swing timer was when the parry happened)
Which means you get more swings against the boss, that the boss in turn has a chance to parry, and get a free hasted swing on you.
So as your parry rate goes up, you get in more swings, which in turn, gives you a greater chance to be parried in turn.
But in terms of over all survivability, between expertise and your existing avoidance, the danger in increasing your parry rate are fairly minor.
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Rustyboy reply on October 3, 2008 6:57 pm:
I don’t think the only reason why they get the 5% extra parry is because of Thunderclap… its really a no brainer.
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Rustyboy reply on October 3, 2008 7:16 pm:
and yes if you increase your parry % over dodge % it increases the chances you will parry and hence increases the chance you will be parry gibed. I can remember a time when I was on gorefiend and my shield block was on CD, I parried -> he parried -> crushing blow -> crushing blow = dead.
Sumendis reply on October 3, 2008 10:32 am:
Indeed, the more often you hit the boss the more often you give it a chance to benefit from parry haste, unless your expertise is totally capped out. I’m not sure how noticeable the difference is though.
Early on in progression in hyjal and BT I used to sometimes stop all attacks on the boss when I felt I was in a tight spot, no gcd rotation, not even autoattack, to prevent the boss from getting parry-haste, in hopes of increasing my chance for survival.
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October 2nd, 2008 at 8:16 pm
P.S.
Any tank with parry gems needs to l2socket unless its just a gem to keep themselves going over a short period of time.
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MadTanker reply on October 3, 2008 11:31 am:
first of all, relax and dont be an a$$. W/O theory crafting we’d still be in the wow stoneage trying to brute force our way through stuff like we did in Diablo 1&2. Trying to look outside the mold for other things is how warlocks found the sl/sl spec. So be nice eh?
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admin reply on October 3, 2008 12:18 pm:
While I agree Rustyboy’s WoW forum style etiquette is uncalled for, the point remains that just as lack of theorycrafting leads to brute forcing our way through WoW.. so too does ignoring established accurate Math.
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Rustyboy reply on October 3, 2008 7:07 pm:
We are right at the end of the BC tanking cycle.. these points have been thrashed out and the more effective approaches are already on paper.
Dodge > Parry Always as stated in the title, I did think about stacking more parry into my threat set and realised very quickly its extremely hard to stack enough of it to be an effective threat increase. So I just capped my yellow hits while maximising expertise for any fast attacking / crushing bosses and my threat has always been more than required for the content my guild is doing BT/Hyjal
October 3rd, 2008 at 11:41 am
Any im going to try to test it out for theory crafting sake. But if i read everyhting right, this is ALL null and void with wraith, well be mostly socketing for str/stam with some mild changes here and there.
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October 3rd, 2008 at 2:05 pm
im not ignoring the fact that dodge build is an estaablished, tried and true build. basically im trying to decide is only sligtly lower avoidance % worth the threat gain and talent gain. with parry build you can potentally free up rage generateing talents
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Rustyboy reply on October 3, 2008 7:00 pm:
What I am saying is that…
Dodge > Parry for Avoidance
Hit/Expertise > Parry for Threat
Parry is a wasted stat that can not be effectively min/maxed without giving up better avoidance/threat stats.
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October 3rd, 2008 at 2:36 pm
So the title is wrong then ?
It’s not ‘Always’ , it’s just ‘When you can’, when you have the sockets on your items and you are socketing for avoidance gems and not other (like stamina) gems ?!
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Veneretio reply on October 3, 2008 2:42 pm:
Well it doesn’t say Dodge > all. Just Dodge > Parry
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October 6th, 2008 at 9:04 am
Isn’t parry one of the threat stats that scales positively though?
10% parry 10% dodge is less effective than 20% parry surely:
10% of attacks benefit from haste
20% of attacks benefit from haste
… I wonder if there is a point where its actually beneficial.
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MadTanker reply on October 6, 2008 12:04 pm:
well, we find out. im going to try the build. to definativly see what it can and cannot do. i think i got another warr in the guild willing to re-build his set. ima pay for his gems ect, were going to spec the same way, and gem up on the same gear. then use ktm and dm to measure tps, healing taken, dmg taken, and im even working on a few ways to try and measure parrys haste increase. Got nothing better to do lol.
Item 1:
20% Avoidance
3% Hit
X amout of threat.
X amount of rage generation
Item 2:
20% Avoidance
X amount of threat. Dodge cuz I can attack faster and give me more rage and then I can use my special abilities, assuming x, y, z and the sun is aligned with my porch and I lift my left leg 3 inchs into the air and click with exactly 42 PSI and Vene is blinking when it happens.”
Thats seems to be a pretty normal comparsion. Not math. wheres the actualy math for this build to say definativly what it can do, and how it compares? Thats the entire point behind my argument here. I have never see actually mathmatical comparsion, I see dodge math thrown at parry assumptions, not at the actual parry math. Can anyone at least concede that much is a valid point lol?
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MadTanker reply on October 6, 2008 12:07 pm:
part of that got cut off.
Item 1:
20% Avoidance
3% Hit
X amout of threat.
X amount of rage generation
Item 2:
20% Avoidance
X amount of threat.
X amount of rage generation.
X amount od parry haste.
Therse are the stats Im going to try and find to make a real comparasion.
[Reply]
Meatgazer reply on October 8, 2008 12:32 am:
The reason they don’t do the math is that parry viability requires a ton of additional factors that you have to track for parry testing.
Weapon speed (slow > fast for parry haste)?
Boss/mobs swing speed (faster the better for parry haste)?
Effective gearing for the encounter (less rage when overgeared, greater percentage of rage from white damage)?
Also, make sure you compare 20% dodge + 6% hit instead of 3% hit, or it’s not equivalent rating.
I’m sure someone has probably done extensive parry testing/math, since we’re at the end of BC and no one who has downed Kil’Jaeden (or probably even Illidan) uses parry sets for anything other than gimmick sets.
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February 13th, 2009 at 3:06 am
I know this is another old thread I am replying too, but could someone tell me what the new caps are for dodge/parry at level 80 as I have been primarily gearing up with expertise and def with some hit/crit over dodge/parry gems.
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