Loading ...The New Warning signs of a Bad level 80 Spec
Read up on a more recent perspective on Specing: A guide to Specs and Experimentation
You might remember a while back I gave you a picture of what talents to avoid in the pre-3.0 spec world. The image below represents what talents you should be avoiding at level 80. It should be noted that just because talents such as Impale and Piercing Howl are shown as available at level 80 does not mean that they should be pursued at level 70. (In fact, I’d suggest avoiding entertaining either route until you’ve got access to more talents.)
Image removed due to Patch changes.
It’s true that I’m suggesting you can access a number of talents that are very situational. This is acceptable as long as we remember the mantra that we should spec for progression just as we should gear for it.
October 29th, 2008 at 6:22 pm
thanks for this
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October 29th, 2008 at 8:22 pm
totally agree man
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October 29th, 2008 at 9:52 pm
What’s wrong with Imp. Disciplines? I can comfortably throw one point in there in a lot of specs. And even though I’m thus far terrible at maximizing my use of Retal, Reck, and Shield wall, You can use them to great effect in just about any encounter.
And I think the jury is still out on Deep Wounds for tanking. I haven’t seen any math yet, so I could be wrong, but as arms, Deep wounds does a -ton- of damage. You could get some solid stacks rolling.
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admin reply on October 29, 2008 10:33 pm:
There’s no way that 30 seconds less on any of your 5 minute cooldowns can trump the plethora of advantageous abilities in Arms, Fury or Prot. You show me a spec with 1 point in it and I’ll show you a place it could be spent better
As to Deep Wounds… perhaps I’ll be wrong on it, but for the time being I’m about as sure as anyone can be that it’s a silly ability compared to the alternatives. Although perhaps in a spec that excludes all multi-tanking possibilities and is exclusively for MTing… it may make sense.
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Supernaut reply on October 30, 2008 6:07 am:
My problem with Deep Wounds as a tank: uncontrollable DoT. I just don’t know precisely when I’ll crit and it bit me in the ass several times. There’s been a few times where a mage wasn’t on top of keeping up polymorph or it broke early and i had to go taunt a mob. Sometimes, an attack gets through and I crit — especially if the taunt misses and I need to stun. Once I crit, the mage can’t CC because of the DoT. It’s not as much of an issue with the 20yd taunt, but it still misses and I might need to charge and an attack occurs.
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Kavtor reply on October 30, 2008 7:35 am:
CC isn’t very critical right now, and probably won’t be for a while in the expansion. And mages have a glyph to remove all dots on a polymorph target!
Veneretio reply on October 30, 2008 7:54 am:
Ya, my Rend hates that stupid glyph.
Kavtor reply on October 30, 2008 7:41 am:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LVZhgZVItrx0didIzsGo
I don’t think I’m missing out on anything for a raid build. And 20% more uptime on some of our best abilities seems pretty solid if you’re aggressive about using them.
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Veneretio reply on October 30, 2008 7:53 am:
Points better spent in Imp Spell Reflect, Puncture, Imp Heroic Strike, Imp Bloodrage, etc
(Not to mention… we don’t know yet if 2/5 demo is the magic number this time around)
I think Imp Spell Reflect’s passive 4% miss is going to be found to be a must-have in the future.
Kavtor reply on October 30, 2008 8:52 am:
I don’t think the passive miss effects AOE’s. And I’m not being hit by many direct damage spells that I can’t reflect. Often at that point the spells aren’t even resistable. Encounter specific of course, but we’ll see how often it comes up.
Imp. Bloodrage is bad. I don’t think Puncture is worth it at all, and while Imp. Heroic Strike isn’t a bad idea, I don’t think the benefit over a 4 minute shield wall (or, for threat, 4 minute reck and retal) is clear cut.
I’ve heard that 1/5 demo might be the cap in wrath, but I’d like to see more comfirmation before I stick with it.
It’s tough to say until we hit content that’s challenging enough that it matters how you’re speced, geared, etc.
Veneretio reply on October 30, 2008 9:10 am:
What it comes down to is do you really believe you’re going to use Shield Wall, etc twice in 1 fight if its a 4 minute cooldown as opposed to a 5 minute cooldown? I don’t see that happening and as a result, I find the ability to be useless.
Yggdrasil reply on November 3, 2008 8:12 am:
While there is no way to say for sure what caused my resists of late on various AoE (specifically on Murmur in SL, Ikiss in Sethekk, and Thorngrin in Bot), I’d say that the regularity of the occurrence has been a tad too much to chalk up to happenstance. I don’t see any indication as to why you would think the reduction in chance of being hit by a spell wouldn’t affect AoE spells.
Granted, I agree on Puncture and Imp. Heroic Strike, at this point, unless you are speccing to offtank (and I still agree with Vene that either is superior to Imp. Disciplines), but Imp. Bloodrage still gets my vote, just barely, though I might exchange it for Imp. Revenge, or possibly Imp. Disarm.
Machus reply on November 4, 2008 6:38 pm:
Yes, I like imp disciplines because I welcome the chance to use them twice in a 4 min or longer fight.
Meatgazer reply on November 5, 2008 6:52 am:
I could see using imp disciplines at lvl 80 for longer fights where high burst is expected or situations for very high damage present themselves (frenzy on lynx, Gruul if you have too many people around you).
The problem is that there aren’t a lot of fights in 3.0 that you’re going to get 4 minutes to use shield wall twice (unless you’re well undermanned). Combine that with the fact that shield wall is generally reflexive to a bad situation, you’d have to use it in the first 30 seconds to get a chance at using it again, and then if something bad happens in the middle of the fight, that’s one less ‘oh crap’ button, because you wanted to use it twice.
Ridlyblade reply on October 31, 2008 11:24 am:
If current warlock counts stay the same if you have at least 3 warlocks that’s 3 curses for debuffs
Curse of Elements (whatever it is casters love)
Curse of Recklessness
Curse of Weakness
With CoW up we won’t need to demo, so I’m thinking depending on the raid they fall moreso under the category of situational to guild type talent points.
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Veneretio reply on October 31, 2008 12:16 pm:
CoW isn’t as Strong as Demoralizing Shout unfortunately. So you can strike that one off the list.
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Ivanstone reply on October 31, 2008 1:49 pm:
Curse of Weakness is 478 AP reduced. Demo Shout is 410 AP reduced. Both are the same if talented though. Total AP requirements are unknown as other have said.
Most ‘Lock curses can be handled by another class. CoE’s magic damage increase can be handled by Death Knoobs and Turkeys. CoR’s Minor Armour Debuff by Droods (preferably Feral) or BM Hunter pets (Wasp). CoW by Warriors or Bears.
Lock Curses do have the advantage of a longer duration though. In that sense I would rather the Warlock’s use that and CoE (depending on other classes). CoR is unnecessary mostly.
admin reply on October 31, 2008 2:03 pm:
You’re right. Soo much catch up to do on these other classes O.o
Looks like the same talent that makes CoW the same AP reduction as 5/5 Imp Demo also reduces the AP bonus of CoR by 100%! In other words, they should be able to apply CoR without us having to worry about covering. This may mean that we’ll be able to spec 2 points into demo in order to always get the maximum reduction and whenever we’ve got a lock is around they can happily buff CoR instead.
I agree that if there’s 3 locks, we might as well have them just put up CoE, CoR and CoW though. Course the locks that want to use Curse of Doom may disagree…
Ridlyblade reply on October 31, 2008 2:33 pm:
I’d be more concerned with the token Aff lock that wants Curse of Agony up over the ones that want to use Curse of Doom…
But if i were a lock I’d always use CoD and sing the Doom song every single time…
Psy reply on October 31, 2008 4:18 pm:
There is no more need for Curse of the Elements, it’s overwritten by Boomkin’s Earth and Moon (Applied passively on some damaging spellcasts) or by Unholy DK’s Ebon Plague (Applied passively on some damaging melee abilities).
So, warlocks will be doing CoR, CoW, and CoA. Since nothing anywhere at all in any aspect of the game hits hard enough for CoW to make any sense at the moment, that means CoR and CoA. I believe other classes can beat them on CoR, but I’d have to look into that.
Also, Agony is better than doom. DPS > “cool the number it is big”
Anyway, on the warrior front, I’m a fan of Imp Shield Wall. I usually run heroics with people I don’t trust, and I’m very used to doing instances in 1-2 pulls. Like, I chain into bosses and when the boss is about to die I’m using Warbringer to get to the next pull. Shield Wall is amazing for overpulling, for moving ahead of the healer, for letting the healer rest, or for turning my back for any reason. It’s not AMAZING, but it is powerful.
I know you’ll probably never use it in a spec, but understand that it DOES have its uses. And yes, in beta I have popped it in a boss fight twice, slamming it right on it’s 4 minute CD. More than once.
Veneretio reply on October 31, 2008 4:41 pm:
Unless things have changed, Doom > Agony because while Agony results in more dps, it requires the use of extra global cooldowns which could be more shadowbolts instead. When you factor that in, Doom comes out on top.
Psy reply on November 1, 2008 12:21 am:
In the past that was the case, but the DPS on Shadowbolt has dropped and the DPS on Agony has increased, making the extra GCDs worthwhile.
Ivanstone reply on November 1, 2008 6:31 am:
@Psy
CoW remains the top utility curse in all circumstances since its the best single target AP debuff. Post 3.0 Brutallus pasted me for 12.5K during a stomp and I have full T6 level gear. So yes, currently, stuff in game can hit hard. In the future, I would still say yes and why leave things to chance?
CoR on the other hand is still harder to use because of the AP buff (although it can be speced out of) and there are viable replacements. FF is better always and sometimes alot better depending on the Druid’s spec.
CoE’s competitor’s require you to bring a specially speced character which may not always be available. Furthermore, its directly applicable, the same cannot be said for the opposition which may reduce uptime.
Finally, 10vs25 man relevance applies. Many warrior buffs are inferiour in application to other buffs. Nevertheless, its important to know what you can bring to the table and a warrior will be more important for buffs in 10 man.
October 30th, 2008 at 2:48 am
Safeguard 2/2 reduces damage by 30% for 6 sec every 30 sec’s(intervine).
100% / (30/6) = 20% of a bossfight u can have 30% less damage with 1 offtank.
With 2 timed offtanks, u would have 40% of the time 30% less damage on Bosses.
-Runetotem EU
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Sumendis reply on October 30, 2008 3:40 am:
Something you may have missed, Intervene’s tooltip in WoW 3.0: “…intercepting the next melee or ranged attack made against them as well as reducing their total threat by 10%.”
Threat is less of an issue nowadays but it’s not completely gone from the game, and I bet if you reduce you’re MT’s threat by 10% every 30sec or even more often, you will cap your dpsers. And longer fight = more chance for screwing it up, the old saying.
Also your offtanks won’t contribute much to the raid apart from every 30sec intervene. They’ll have to wear full tank gear to survive the intervene, in dps gear they likely get 1shot by an intervened crit.
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Furiat/Vegelus reply on October 30, 2008 3:54 am:
Yea, we were thinking about old usage of intervene. Till we’ve found that it reduces threat too now.
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Meatgazer reply on October 30, 2008 8:12 am:
Wow, didn’t realize that.
As an off-tank, I’m going to start using intervene on locks/ret pallys to lower their threat whenever the CD is up.
Kodora reply on November 8, 2008 4:11 pm:
SAY WHAAAT!
That intervene change is news to me
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October 30th, 2008 at 2:50 am
how come 20% stun reduction is red zone? don’t you just hate getting stunned all the time…
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Flesichmann reply on October 30, 2008 6:42 am:
This is for raid tanking. Most raid trash/bosses stuns differ from player stuns (unless something changes) in the sense that many are not resistible. It’s just one of those places where it’s so situational (trash) that it’s not really worth the points.
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Kodora reply on November 8, 2008 4:10 pm:
The talent has been changed (a while ago) to be reduction in stun DURATION, not increased stun resist.
As far as i know trash/boss stuns are the same as all other stuns, it is just that your points are BETTER spent somewhere else.
It can be said that all these talents have a use, but your points are better somewhere else.
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Ashlan reply on November 11, 2008 9:26 am:
No, Imp. Charge is nothing better … how often do you charge a Boss in a fight ? 10 rage more at begin of fight is nice, but making a 6 secs stun into a 5 secs stun can save you one hit as stunned -> also nice
Both are no “must have” talents, but both have their use.
I’d vote for: Remove the red zone from Iron Will
October 30th, 2008 at 3:20 am
Thats a really interesting theory Killstream, with 2 warriors backing up and intervening…
I would like to see some more math on that.
I read on the other thread about putting “Vigilence” on the MT if you’re OT… which I just dont see the benefit of (reducing the MT threat?!).
But this sounds like a much smarter way of mitigating some damage.
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Kadomi reply on October 30, 2008 1:34 pm:
I think the point of Vigilance on MT and OT is that you help each other with threat. Vigilance on each other means a 3% damage reduction, and you each get 10% of your threat. In two tank fights where both tanks need to be on top of the threat list, I would find this helpful. Also, in fights where the 2nd tank needs to taunt (like Bear in ZA) a resist means you don’t have to risk a wipe by waiting for the taunt cooldown to be over.
I haven’t used it much yet, but maybe someone can shed some light on it.
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Veneretio reply on October 30, 2008 1:35 pm:
It’s kinda cool too actually how double vigilance on MT and OT would allow one to compensate for the other too.
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Madtanker reply on December 6, 2008 1:26 am:
I have tested this and it works quite well, MT And OT use Vig. on eachother, the lower threat effects cancel eachother out, and allow 3% dmg reduced on Both MT and OT. This is a very smart dmg mitigation and use of the skill.
Psy reply on October 31, 2008 4:21 pm:
3% damage reduction.
I mean, I don’t know about you but I’m pushing 3,000 TPS in 10-man groups. My DPS is solid but none of the really come anywhere close to pulling threat, ever, and if they did, shazam intervene, hand of salv, etc. So, the 10% threat reduction is meaningless, especially if you have an OT helping you out with threat. The 3% damage reduction is really pretty meaningless too, considering nothing in the game hits hard, at all, anymore. But oh well, it’s fun
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Veneretio reply on October 31, 2008 4:42 pm:
I think it’s safe to say that things are going to start hitting ridiculously hard at level 80.
Kodora reply on November 17, 2008 6:31 am:
I also believe that dps will start to catch up to us in threat at 80, their dps will increase at a faster rate than ours, and our innate threat is linear.
Eamo reply on November 4, 2008 9:19 am:
Can the bear boss in ZA actually resist taunt? I have tanked that fight a lot of times and never seen a resist (nor have I ever had the other tank claim he got a resist) even though I am not even close to hit capped in my prot gear.
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Meatgazer reply on November 4, 2008 10:51 am:
Sure can. We had 2 wipes pre 3.0.2 where the taunt was resisted and it caused a wipe. I haven’t seen it since, but part of that could be that the miss % for taunt is lower (I think).
Kodora reply on November 17, 2008 6:32 am:
Are you sure those were resists and not just lazy tanks…
I’ve never seen a resist in ZA and i did it a whole bunch as MT or OT
October 30th, 2008 at 3:42 am
Good post - atleast make the red squares transparent, haven’t familiarised myself with the Warrior tree just yet!
One i disagree on is excluding Safeguard - although 70% of the time this doesnt apply (or atleast now with no wthreat issues) i think its worth considering when raiding.
For instance, in ZA Zul’jn (6/6) fight - in the 4th Phase he can use Rage Claw and wiping out most clothies - but with safeguard it was possibly to save a healer and dps - talent point well spent imo…
It is also great for any other bosses that go static and do some sort of AoE (Zul’jin Phase 3 or Big bad wolf)
Intriguing post - looking forward to feedback
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Flesichmann reply on October 30, 2008 6:43 am:
Again, a very situational ability. Safeguard is a PURE off-tank talent, and you find me a tank who only wants to OT and not MT and I’ll marry a goat (not really, but you know). It’s functionality is very limited in raid situations, especially for MT’s.
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Gorrack reply on October 30, 2008 2:34 pm:
If you are required to intervene someone who gets focused by Zul’Jin’s lynx phase, then you need to address the bigger problem of healing failure and communication barriers. It doesn’t take any time at all to call out over vent who is getting focused and the healers switch to fast small heals on that target. AND if you are doing it right anyway, you should be too close to intervene as the raid should be piled on top of you so you dont lose Melee dps/ Tank TPS time. Thats just my 2cp.
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Veneretio reply on October 30, 2008 3:03 pm:
Intervening the person focused by the Lynx is a long standing strategy for Zuljin and by no means represents a failing on the healers if its needed. It’s called doing your part and if you aren’t doing it and that person dies… it wasn’t the healers fault. At least, not solely.
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Gorrack reply on November 4, 2008 8:42 am:
Strategy we have always used and even before the 3.0 nerf was everyone collapse, to keep the lynx in the same spot for sustained TPS/DPS especially from the melee. If you are spread out so that you can use intervene, then you are losing valuable DPS/TPS time chasing the lynx down. If you do collapse, and have to back out and then intervene, you are wasting TPS time on the boss to get maybe 1 shot in on the focused member. IMO it makes absolutly no sense and is wasted effort. Even with 2 healers or 2.5 (in the case your prot pally strapped the heal gear on) this is not an issue, unless your healer is drunk, a bad healer, or dead (see bad healer).
Intevening the focus target may be a long standing strategy, but IMO it doesnt mean its a good one.
Psy reply on November 4, 2008 9:14 am:
Claw Rage does 15,900 damage in roughly 6 seconds, or 2,650 DPS.
Intervening any hit besides the first or last brings the total on the secondary target down to 13750 in 6 seconds, or 2292 DPS.
The difference isn’t huge, but it’s nonzero and provides a buffer.
I don’t get your “losing TPS time” argument, I’m usually miles above DPS in every situation >_>
Also, not everyone brings a prot pally to ZA!
Gorrack reply on November 4, 2008 9:59 am:
Remember though, that he does reset his aggro table durring phase changes, so just bceause omen says you are 100-200k threat above the next person, is not always the case, dont know how many times i have had a mage or warlock get tunnel vision going from troll to bear and just get pasted on the stone slabs because they were just rippin off incinerates or fireballs between the transitions.
the TPS / DPS though was most relevant pre 3.0… If you are still in lynx phase for longer than 1 claw rage well.. i dont know what to tell you except you probably lost all your DPS some how. Post 3.0 this argument really is just slanting in favor of the melee dps you bring, nothing is more of a pain in the ass especially as a mutilate rogue or an enhance shaman than going through your rotation only to have your target beline about 15 yards the other way, so you gotta disrupt what youa re doing, get over there, and then get back into the swing of things. Again point being… if your melee and tank have to run all over the place to get back on target you are losing tps and dps due to repositioning.
Also, I know that not everyone brings a prot pally to ZA, or they have their prot pally tank it and let the warrior or bear strap on the dps gear. Point being is that, Zul’Jin, especially AFTER 3.0 is a joke with 2 healers, and a snooze fest with 3.5.
Gorrack reply on November 4, 2008 10:05 am:
One other thought on the intervening… how much of a difference is it whether the person takes 13750 or 15900 dmg, the only people with that kind of HP are tanks, MAYBE warlocks, or extremely well geared ret pallys, fury/arms warrs, or cat druids who go bear to soak the dmg. MAYBE extremly well geared warlocks. regardless heals are going to be flying to whomever gets claw rage anyway, if they are not, then again, you have an issue with healing. I also dont know of any healer that says “welp i have healed my share of the 13,750 dmg i am going to stop now.
Chances are they are going to be throwing heals till they see the person is ACTUALLY not taking dmg anymore, and move back to the tank.
Meatgazer reply on November 4, 2008 10:48 am:
I hate when people say there’s no difference between 13k and 15k damage. That is only true if it’s in one shot. In six seconds with lag and time to adjust, a priest can get 3 flash heals off, about 6000 points of healing.
7750 damage to a clothie? Survivable. 9900 damage to a clothie? Less survivable.
And in the long run, if you save one dps’er by intervening, it will more than make up for the loss of DPS from making melee run around.
Gorrack reply on November 4, 2008 11:12 am:
Sorry to say, but there really isnt any difference if the claw rage person takes 13k or 16k damage from the claw lash, the person being focused has to live… They will live by heals being redirected to them wether they take 13k or 16k dmg. And I will bet you anything, that the person gets overhealed wether they take 13 or 16k because the healers will be both focusing on them throwing their 1.5 second heals. Now, do I want to stop DPS, back up and intervene the person? or do I want to continue DPSing, and generating threat on the target and trust that my healers will do their job?
I cant help but think you guys are missing my point here. Efficiency says, let the healers do their job and you keep doing yours. Intervene is wasted on this. EFFICIENCY and EASE being my point.
Veneretio reply on November 4, 2008 2:43 pm:
The collapse strat is the most popular for Lynx, but Interveneing is still part of this. Since you’re at the front and their at the back, it’s literally 5 yards of moving, intervene and then go back to generating threat. The small amount of dps you contribute is not as valuable as aiding in keeping people alive during the most burst damage part of the encounter, especially if a healer is chosen.
Your efficiency argument would only be relevant if it was a constant stream of damage, but its not. It’s high damage for a short period of time. By interveneing, you’re helping the healers out for a short period of time. By saying this isn’t right to do, it’s like saying… during Phase 2 of Bloodboil, you shouldn’t have Thunder Clap on Bloodboil because while Thunder Clap will reduce incoming damage by 25%…. it’s not your job to keep people alive. You have to learn to distinguish between burst damage situations and steady damage situations. It doesn’t make sense to intervene everytime the cooldown is up on a fight with steady dps, but it does make sense to use the ability during the one point in a fight when a target is taking an insanely high level of dps especially if doing so doesn’t inconvenience you at all.
And as others have said… by the time someone is chosen to be nuked… threat really shouldn’t be an issue.
Psy reply on November 4, 2008 5:53 pm:
It’s not “My healers can’t keep up with this so I will save his life” it’s “I feel like making the fight as easy on everyone as possible.”
And if your healers will do it perfectly without assistance, then so be it, there’s no need. Different strokes for different folks
October 30th, 2008 at 4:03 am
That 10% loss can be returned with Vigilance.
For what kind of gear offtanks should wear and what talents they should learn, i havent looked into that.
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Kazuma reply on October 30, 2008 4:58 am:
Transfering 10% thread from someone to you is a bit different than reducing der thread by 10% total.
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Ukk reply on October 30, 2008 5:39 am:
Interesting thought, Kilstream! Nevertheless, arguing that you can replace that threat with Vigilance is fallacy. The tank likely already has Vigilance, so you are still reducing the threat ceiling. Not to mention the sudden loss of 10% threat can be difficult to manage for dps who are a nasty crit away from passing the 110/130% threshholds.
Even if threat-capping proves to be an issue at 80, the larger flaw in the Safeguard argument is having two off-tanks whose primary role is to Intervene. In a single-tank, single-target boss fight (unlike AoE) a switch to a dps spec, or at least gear, is likely necessary to bring meaningful benefit to the raid. If the encounter is balanced to have more than one tank, there are likely to be other responsibilities such as adds or cube-clicking or VR-style aggro races, that would prevent the regular use of intervene.
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October 30th, 2008 at 4:51 am
In Arms-Tree to reach Impale: Why do you think Imp. Charge is ok while not Iron Will - both are very situational and rather useless but not bad
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Flesichmann reply on October 30, 2008 6:44 am:
Imp. Charge has more functionality with the new Warbringer talent and would be a huge boost to your rage as long as you use Charge frequently.
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Ohando reply on October 30, 2008 6:53 am:
Imp charge goes with warbringer: You charge a lot, and gain an extra rage bonus.
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Meatgazer reply on October 30, 2008 8:08 am:
With the introduction of Warbringer, Charge is much more useful, especially for picking up mobs that break away and chain pulling.
Iron Will has always been very touchy as to what it actually effects. Like the PvP trinkets, if the effect is called something else (which it normally is), it won’t affect it. Also, now that it reduces the time and doesn’t resist it, it’s not as nice.
To me, charge is the easy answer.
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Orla reply on October 30, 2008 11:19 am:
while i do agree that imp charge is much more useful with warbringer, I do feel the need to say that pulling with a charge sounds like and is a big no. You’ve got a gun. Use it, back pedal until they are where you want them, then charge.
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Meatgazer reply on October 30, 2008 12:12 pm:
It depends on the pull. In some heroic instances it’s useful for hold the mobs in a space for AoE when LOS is inconvenient. It also works for casters that you want to keep stunlocked/silencelocked (Charge, Shield Bash, Shockwave, Conc Blow, Shield Bash) and useful in ZA for stunning scouts going to the dragonhawk boss.
And we pretty much throw caution to the wind when we chain pull (I contend that it is different than rage floating, which is calculated). Especially in 3.0.2.
Flesichmann reply on October 30, 2008 2:13 pm:
I would also say a Charge boss pull would give you a ton of start rage if you popped Bloodrage.
Steele reply on October 31, 2008 12:40 am:
whenever its possible i “pull” with charge, and i usually charge on a caster, yes. charge -> tc -> demo -> shockwave and only after that shockwave my raid is allowed to CC. I take a lot of damage like this in the first 3 seconds, but its never enough to kill me (usually 20-50% of my hp lost). After shockwave people have a nice 4 seconds to get their CC ready / heal me up. Then i pop shieldblock and there goes the trash ^^ I find this strategy is pretty “safe” if you do it right and quick.
Psy reply on October 31, 2008 4:28 pm:
Why do you consider it a bad thing to pull with charge? The only time I don’t use it now is when the enemies being where they are will cause problems.
Charging will pull three groups? Cool. Charge, Thunderclap, Shockwave, stand back, and it’s all dead before it gets to you. Welcome to 3.0. If you’re not AOEing you should be.
Yggdrasil reply on October 31, 2008 4:44 pm:
I do almost of my pulling in 5 mans with Charge, unless I have a very specific reason not to. On trash pulls, I usually pick the furthest mob in the group to Charge (yes, I have the glyph to improve Charge’s range). This often leaves me roughly center mass of the group of mobs, in perfect position for a Thunderclap as I wheel the group into my forward arc for a Shockwave. Pulling with a gun on large pulls often feels awkward now, by comparison, because the mobs arrive at my position at different times, forcing me to pick them up 1 or 2 at a time, waiting to gather them for a Thunderclap/Shockwave combo, I never really get aggro on casters, and I’m increasing the chance that I or someone else will screw the pooch on the pull before I have control over the situation. On bosses, however, I have found issues with positioning at times (possibly an issue of lag or a bug, but I occassionally end up behind the boss with my back to him, and an overeager teammate pulls aggro), so I rarely use it against them, plus I like to save the cooldown for when one gives me a hefty knockback or roots me, or I have to run an add down.
October 30th, 2008 at 5:51 am
maybe on specific bosses it’s needed, just throwing an idea in the group
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Henki reply on October 30, 2008 6:22 am:
Isn’t Safeguard a Prot PvP tool? That’s the only reasonable use I can see so far. Unless some fight will be built around it in Wrath, which is a possibility.
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October 30th, 2008 at 7:07 am
I certainly don’t wanna discourage people from thinking out of the box, but chaining intervenes is gonna dwindle your MT’s threat faster than you think.
OK stopattack-intervene macro should solve that.
Each successive intervene will reduce effective average tank tps by 10%. Say he’s doing 2k raw tps, 1st intervene he’s down to effectively 1800 counting all threat up to that point, 2nd down to 1720 and so forth. It takes 6-7 intervenes to cut your tank’s tps effectively in half… That’s about 3min of back to back intervening with 1 OT warrior. For short fights it could work yes, we’ll see how big the threat margins are in wotlk and then you may have leeway for a few intervenes. So instead of chaining them back to back, rather use them as another emergency button, taking 1 hit off the MT (which was potentially lethal) could save the day, with or without safeguard. Safeguard would just allow the healers to get the situation under control more easily.
But it requires your OT to not do much else, he’ll be basically locked on monitoring the MT’s threat, having enough rage ready and being in range for that emergency intervene (possibly means being out of melee range of the boss, depending on hitbox). Also better have OT’s autoattack switched off, we don’t want to negate that intervene benefit with a potential parry-haste right after
Using vigilance on the MT is something to consider on progression fights though. The threat reduction always stays at 10%, it doesn’t get stronger over time like chain-intervening would. And vigilance gives an extra 3% damage reduction vs. all sources. My co-tank and I used this on each other when tanking Brutallus for the first time. Threat was still ok and we both had the 3% like an improved defensive stance
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Sumendis reply on October 30, 2008 7:09 am:
*EDIT* OT will be lock on monitoring the MT’s *health* not threat obviously…
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October 30th, 2008 at 7:09 am
On two tank fights when both tanks are on the same target, one of my favorite things to do is to have both tanks put their vigilance on each other. The threat reduction basically cancels each other out and both tanks then take 3% less damage.
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Andenthal reply on October 30, 2008 10:23 am:
It might seem that way in theory, but not in practice. The only way the threat would ‘cancel’ each other out is if both tanks were doing very close to the same TPS. Example:
MT doing 2000 TPS
OT doing 1500 TPS
The MT is transfering 200 TPS to the OT, while the OT is only transfering 150 back.
Granted, as most players have all ready stated, threat is hardly an issue anymore. Just something to keep in the back of your head for threat sensitive fights, or fights with transitions/threat wipes where 10% threat reduction in the first 5-10 secs, could be the make or break.
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Meatgazer reply on October 30, 2008 11:03 am:
Depending on the nature of the fight, you’re also raising the 2nd tank’s threat up, raising threat ceilings on fights like Moroes and Gruul, and equalizing threat on fights like Void Reaver.
There are just as many fights where 3% less damage received could be make or break as the fights where the threat reduction could be make or break.
There is definitely value in two warrior tanks Vigilencing each other (is that a word?), but like most things now, it’s situational.
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Andenthal reply on October 30, 2008 12:41 pm:
I was not trying to say that Vigilance was good, or bad. Just trying to point out that when 2 tanks place Vigilance on each other, and are attacking the same target it never “cancels out the threat reduction.”
I agree that Vigilance is great in some circumstances, but to assume that having 2 Warriors place it on one another negates the threat reduction is simply untrue. Excpet in the (very) rare case of both tanks putting out the exact same threat.
October 30th, 2008 at 11:17 am
Great post, and were all talking here about threat reduction which isn’t much of an issue atm. However points in safegaurd is rather pointless vs the MT because of all the other abilities that those points could be spent on. And as a tank getting hit is a good thing and intervene as a MT saving move… that’s a very interesting option i never really thought of. For bosses that do sweeping strikes just make the raid out of range and then no problem. I don’t really see a point in safegaurd. putting points in demo instead could save the tank with that reduced dmg as well as aoe dmg that other members have to deal with. I think having our spec the way it is in protection makes us able to look more towards dps talents instead. Prot spec talents are soo good and we have all of them just about. Now its time to make us more destructive ;P.
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October 30th, 2008 at 11:50 am
BTW Vene gratz on ur BULWARK!!!
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Veneretio reply on October 30, 2008 12:03 pm:
hehe, thanks
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Furiat/Vegelus reply on October 31, 2008 7:33 am:
I assume You’ve killed that bastard before patch, just like you wanted to?
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admin reply on October 31, 2008 7:45 am:
Sadly, I did not. We fought through attendance issues for a long time, but eventually you just run out of enough geared alts to cover all the bases. So, ya I gotta admit that 3.0 tainted the Illidan kill a bit, it still was fun and I’m glad I got to kill him. Given more time, I’m confident we would have, but either way… I’m happy with the experience I’m getting now and looking forward to pushing through the next expansion.
October 30th, 2008 at 7:21 pm
Vene only thinks Iron Will is worthless cause he’s an orc….
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Irghen reply on October 31, 2008 2:43 pm:
Aha!
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October 31st, 2008 at 7:43 am
I think you’ve written off a few talents that you shouldn’t have.
Consider Commanding Presence. Currently a viable choice due to the re-arrangement of the Fury tree, its another pure survival talent at our disposal. Whilst its safe to assume that Destro Locks and their dirty Imps will be a regular feature of Wrath raiding they are not guaranteed in 10 man content leaving us to buff raid health. Its also multi-purpose and allows us to use Battle Shout more effectively for soloing, small content and 25 man raids lead by people who don’t like to bring Paladins. Booming Voice mixes well here for that reason.
I’m a bit of fan of Improved Disciplines although its usefulness is dependent on the length of the fight.
I think its safe to assume that there’s probably 4 distinct Warrior Builds: PvP, 5-man, 10-man and 25-man. PvP naturally uses a lot of the “junk” talents. 5-man eschews survivability for offense. The key difference between 10 and 25 builds is you’ll probably want to use more of the buffing options that warriors have in a 10-man build.
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admin reply on October 31, 2008 7:49 am:
Good points and I’ll have to tackle this one in an article at 80. That being said, I’ll freely admit that a number of talents could have uses in PvP, but I’ll never worry about them. This just ain’t a PvP site.
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Kavtor reply on October 31, 2008 8:10 am:
Plus, Commanding is a better buff than the imp. It’s quite a lot of extra health, especially over the whole raid. I’m not sure whether the T6 bonus stacks before, or after commanding presence, but it could be a 1562 health buff to everyone.
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admin reply on October 31, 2008 8:44 am:
Ya, it’s definitely very possible that we’ll be dragging around 2 pieces of T6 at 80. That being said, 15 points into Fury to get it seems a little bit heavy. (16 when you consider that if you’re going that far, you might as well get Piercing Howl)
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mavfin reply on November 2, 2008 10:37 pm:
My only comment about still dragging around some T6 at 80: What about armor numbers because of ilvl differences? Will that change whether you keep T6 or not?
Veneretio reply on November 2, 2008 11:57 pm:
T6 Chest has same armor as level 76ish blues it seems. Around 300 armor less than level 80 blues. So if you’re early to 80, I think you could easily have some T6 kickin’ around.
After all, it’s not like everything we want drops on the first run
Over time, it seems that you could create an entire blue 80 set though that trumped most T6 epics.
Ivanstone reply on October 31, 2008 8:47 am:
This has me concerned actually. I wasn’t paying attention to all the new skills but I was under the impression that Improved Blood Pact and Improved Commanding Shout would be identical. That doesn’t appear to be the case currently and I am wondering if Blizzard will fix this.
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admin reply on October 31, 2008 9:46 am:
Here’s the numbers that I’m getting.
170 affected by talent:
((2 255 + 170) * 1.25) - (1 330 * 1.3) = 1 302.25
170 not affected by talent:
(2 255 * 1.25) - (1 330 * 1.3) + 170 = 1 259.75
So not sure where this 1562 difference is, but perhaps I’m missing something somewhere. Either way, there’s a big difference between commanding shout and blood pact.
How much does 5/5 offer?
170 affected by talent:
(2 255 + 170) * .25 = 606.25
170 not affected by talent:
2 255 * .25 = 563.75
So, about 110ish health per point. Personal, not great, but party/raid wide definitely makes it considerable. Looks like I may have to update this stupid picture
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October 31st, 2008 at 1:10 pm
Improved Disarm is also Hazardous unless you pvp in prot. In that case Safeguard is NOT hazardous. So either cross out both or none.
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admin reply on October 31, 2008 3:30 pm:
If there’s a dungeon or especially if there’s a raid boss out there that’s disarmable then Imp Disarm definitely isn’t hazardous. A current example is Malacress, the 5th boss from ZA, he’s disarmable. If in time, it’s found at 80 that there isn’t a decent boss to use this on then I’ll happily cover it. For the time being, the jury is still out.
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October 31st, 2008 at 4:36 pm
One interesting issue you might not have noticed, Vene: Right now, in WotLK, there is NO DIFFICULT INSTANCE. The currently implemented raid dungeons are hilarious. Seriously. They’re about as difficult post-3.0 Kara. You might scoff, but when you’ve learned the fights (2-3 attempts MAX per boss in Naxx and OS) you’ll be one-shotting everything in mere moments with a pug.
So, for the time being, defensive talents are right out. There’s no need for survival, there isn’t even any need for threat.
On the plus side, the extreme casuals that couldn’t figure out which buttons are the right ones to press, or why you need a shield, or which talents to pick, will be getting to raid.
Here’s to hoping Ulduar will require skill!
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Veneretio reply on October 31, 2008 4:52 pm:
I’d question your gear before throwing out the “no difficult instance” tag. If you’re using the blue PvP gear… that’s leagues above what a new 80 will have. If you’re still using a wealth of T6 gear then that’s also leagues above too.
All things are relative and while a seasoned group probably will be able to /faceroll these instances. It’s not likely that a group with “standard” gear for a new 80 is going to step in and roll these instance especially in a pug.
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Psy reply on November 2, 2008 1:53 pm:
Surprisingly, it’s not, as the blue PvP gear has buckets of strength but no avoidance, and a new L80 tank who puts some thought in will likely have better tanking gear in at most a day of effort. For DPS and healing, the stats wasted on resilience significantly drop the ilvl of gear when not in PvP. Considering the entirety of 10 and 25m Naxx has been completed in the base blue gear, I wouldn’t be surprised if Naxx is cleared immediately upon hitting 80, or if one of the big names pulls a HKM, Naxx might be cleared BEFORE hitting 80.
Skill is the factor, not gear. Naxx is like Kara; A skilled group can do it with practically no gear, and a geared group can do it with practically no skill >_>
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Yggdrasil reply on November 3, 2008 9:08 am:
Is it possible that Blizzard is intentionally dumbing down or lowering the difficulty of the raid content in Beta in order to have players on Beta progress quickly, so they have better data/information on performance in later raids?
Psy reply on November 3, 2008 3:10 pm:
No. People asked that on beta, and Blizzard said “We don’t intend to raise the difficulty of Naxx for live- It’s at the level we want. If we wanted to raise it we’d have you testing a more difficult version”
They have claimed that we won’t waltz through later raid content, but at the moment it’s plain hilarious.
Yggdrasil reply on November 3, 2008 4:52 pm:
Thanks for the response! Well, at least I won’t have to worry about spending a long period of time walking around in dungeon blues at level cap…which is actually pretty nice, in a way, though it certainly does beg the question, “Why bother making any loot non-epic at all?”
mavfin reply on November 3, 2008 5:21 pm:
A lot of people forget that this time Naxx is the ‘beginner’ instance. Now, if you’re an experienced raider, and used to functioning in a group, yes, it will be easy. However, that’s not what a lot of people first-time 10-man raiding in Naxx will be. They’ll be very green, and unused to all the things we take for granted.
Blizzard saw the success of Karazhan, and wants to build on that. That means that they need more people to take up raiding. Making raid instance #1 fairly easy for *new* raiders is how they do it.
Anyone who has done BC 25-man raiding very much, or did stuff like tank Twin Emps in the old days, or killed C’thun is going to find Naxx easy, from what I hear. Just remember that Naxx isn’t aimed *at you*. Blizzard has said there will be further (harder) raid instances. We haven’t seen them, so we’ll just have to see. ZA was a step up for a Kara-geared group, definitely, so I’m inclined to wait and see, and be optimistic.
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Psy reply on November 4, 2008 8:22 am:
You make a valid point, but that’s not exactly the issue. I mean, if BC was released in the state it existed during 2.4, it would be solid. Kara/Mag/Gruul were barely more difficult than heroics, SSC/TK were easily puggable, BT/Hyjal were a little trickier, and Sunwell was an instance for the hardcore. The problem is that Wrath is being released with only the T4 equivalents, and no real challenge for the high-end.
Before, Blizzard would make raid content difficult, then slowly nerf it patch to patch, so that the lower tiers of raiders would have something new and interesting to do when the higher tiers had completed a dungeon. You can see it all through Vanilla and BC. While they waited for the first difficult raid instance to be nerfed to ease, they had heroics to tide them over, and with 15 distinct heroics across 5 factions, that was quite a bit of content. Now, however, all extant content is for the lower tiers of raiding. Which means that when they release difficult content, the hardcore minmax raiders will shout with glee as they smash through it with abandon, while the less hardcore will cry that they have nothing new to experience.
That’s my take anyway. Maybe Blizzard will be way, way better than ever and always have something crazy and new and amazing ready to go
November 1st, 2008 at 7:52 am
The build I made after the expansion was 0/5/56 with 5/5 Cruelty and Imp. Disciplines, no Vigilance and so forth. I’ve come to the conclusion I don’t use my Disciplines often enough for Imp. Disciplines to be viable and I’d move those two points into Imp. Spell Reflection. I also have 3/3 Puncture which isn’t necessarily that bad but at 70 I wouldn’t max it out in my next build.
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Harbinger reply on November 5, 2008 11:27 am:
0/5/56? No Deflection? oO
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Kodora reply on November 18, 2008 10:46 am:
I also skipped on deflection for my level 70 build. I wanted all the key talents to help my tps then im filling in my avoidance/mitigation talents as i level.
(parry/toughness/antic/shield spec)
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November 30th, 2008 at 3:30 am
good job breaking your own rules vene
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Veneretio reply on November 30, 2008 6:59 pm:
Gotta test
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Strogg reply on December 1, 2008 9:22 am:
I was wondering, myself… Cuz I swore I saw you specced for autorend.
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admin reply on December 1, 2008 9:50 am:
Yup, sometimes you learn that what didn’t work at 70, does work at 80. There’s been a lot of talk about how strong Deep Wounds is in particular for Heroics as it will trigger from Damaging Shield crits. So, I’ve been trying it out and it definitely does light up.
That being said… in 25 mans, it’s horrible. There’s only 40 Debuff slots to hand out and even without this talent sucking up one, there’s still issues with a standard 25 man filling up far more than that.
5/10 mans, Deep Wounds might actually be worth it. You’ll probably see me speced out of it and speced into Commanding Presence for 10 mans soon too
Gotta test them all, but for the time being this picture still acts as a great, simple guide for people that don’t even know where to start with specs. Going outside of these guidelines needs to be done with a lot of caution otherwise you’re risking nerfing yourself or the raid. O.o
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Talldar reply on December 22, 2008 8:05 am:
Not sure where, but I’m very fond that they removed the 40 debuff limit and it’s now open as far down the line as your group can push it.
Veneretio reply on December 22, 2008 8:57 am:
You’re correct and that’s why you see “The Deep Wounds” spec making rounds across many Tanking sites lately. (15/5/51)
December 10th, 2008 at 12:16 pm
Well i skip imp demo, This is my one target threat specc, as atm im pretty happy with,
See this is purely focused on 1 target, As im raiding only atm.
So i’d reccomend this For The Shieldslam>revenge>devastate type of playstyle, But!
Notice, if you have 1 sec left on shieldslam cd, do a decastate or revenge to always keep the Global cooldown up, Aslong As you have those on, and are spamming theese, it should work
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LAM00bZhxZVctrx0zidIzsGo = raid
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December 19th, 2008 at 3:46 am
Maybe you should update picture, Vene? Deep Wounds is marked red on current one while you’re using it at the moment ;).
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Veneretio reply on December 19, 2008 7:58 am:
Scroll up a few comments, it says I’m testing it more
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Furiat/Vegelus reply on December 19, 2008 8:42 am:
Still? Or just started?
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admin reply on December 19, 2008 9:38 am:
I had a more conventional spec then went to deep wounds then went to Piercing Howl + Commanding Presence and have since went back to Deep Wounds again. Deep Wound is showing itself to be an insane amount of damage (7-12%) for only 3 points. You’ll likely see this post updated as well as a dedicated post on “The Deep Wounds Spec” in the near future.
Furiat/Vegelus reply on December 22, 2008 4:01 am:
Oh, one thing about DW in 25man - I’ve seen some info on EJs (with link to the blue) about removing limitations of only 40 debuff slots. Still, UI might not show all of them. So if this is really true (cba to find that one) DW might be usable in 25mans.
December 19th, 2008 at 9:26 am
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Darkspear&n=Veneretio
Is that you? If so why do you have deep wounds? You holding out on us V?
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admin reply on December 19, 2008 9:35 am:
o.m.g. Scroll up. lol.
Yes, it’s me and for the 3rd time. It’s called testing
I’ve also been seen sporting 4/5 Commanding Presence and 2/2 Booming Voice too!
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December 22nd, 2008 at 10:14 am
I tried out Deepwounds, but found I was not really critting enough for it to be very useful. It was onlt lil 2-3 percent of my damage in the runs I used it in. Perhaps I was doing something wrong with my spec.
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Veneretio reply on December 22, 2008 11:32 am:
Well, it’s a raid spec, so you won’t likely see anything significant unless you look at your contribution to a raid boss. Having a feral druid or MS warrior in the raid improves Deep Wound’s damage significantly too.
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Furiat/Vegelus reply on December 23, 2008 1:24 am:
In 25mans you should have about 30% crit rate on abilities which seems to be enough for DW:
15% on tanking abilities (from talents)
5% from baer
3% from judgements
~5% base crit
a little bit from BoK
+sometimes agil on tanking gear (rarely it seems, it’s not tbc)
Actually you can get those buffs in 10man too.
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Furiat/Vegelus reply on December 23, 2008 1:25 am:
Also some points from Cruelty, if you have them (but having DW almost always should mean less, if any, points in Cruelty).
December 23rd, 2008 at 8:35 am
So should you see significant damage in Heroics from DW or no?
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Thrym reply on December 26, 2008 1:48 pm:
Iron Will and Deep Wounds definitely need to be moved out of the “red zone”. In fact, placing them there shows a bias towards other abilities of equally dubious value.
Stun duration reduction is handy. It’s just that simple. It’s no less situational than charging multiple times in a fight, and when it is useful, it is no less invaluable. A very viable alternative to Improved Charge.
Deep Wounds is fantastic. You DO see satisfactory uptime from the ability, it’s just that simple. CC is virtually non-existant, you won’t be breaking it with bleeds. It procs from virtually everything, so even at a relatively low crit chance you are hitting many, many times which gives many, many opportunities to keep the ability active on the target. Recount offers it as 10% of my current DPS, which means a direct 10% damage increase on my targets, as well as commensurate threat gain–and this applies to AE tanking as well because it works with TC and Damage Shield. This is without any points in cruelty and no crit rating whatsoever on gear, incidentally.
Considering that threat is a virtual non-issue in most fights, effective health is more than enough in most fights, and avoidance is more or less capped due to diminishing returns, a 10% DPS gain is something tangible that you can bring to your raid group that isn’t otherwise being supplied.
Please update this so that non-tanks don’t view this guide and believe that their warriors are somehow badly misguided by taking these offerings.
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