Killing Kritters 2.0 - WotLK Edition
Long time readers will remember the original post on using Critters to gain a little rage boost and keep you in combat to prevent rage decay. This all really just ties into the concept of Rage Floating which I’ve touched on in the past too. After Patch 3.0’s nerf at level 70, we were all basking in rage and it didn’t seem like we’d have to worry about rage ever again.
Well I don’t know about you, but I can still rage starve myself if I try. If you can’t, you probably aren’t Heroic Striking or Cleaving enough. With more aggressive use of HS and Cleave, it’s natural for us to occasionally over-shoot our usage and end a pull with less than optimal rage. Thankfully… there’s a number of little critters scattered throughout the new instances and more importantly, there’s a brand new use for these little guys.
Charging Critters!
In the past with us having to flip to Battle Stance to use Charge, it never made sense to use it to gain rage. (It didn’t really make sense to use it at all…) It was all lost when you flipped back to Defensive Stance, after all. Enter today though and if you’re specced into Warbringer, then you’ve got access to using Charge all the time without the inconvenience of Stance Dancing. Better yet, you can Charge critters to gain a lot more rage than just slicing them.
I want to pull with Charge though!
No, I’m sorry. You really don’t. The reality is that Charging into packs causes unnecessarily huge damage spikes. Now true, if you grossly outgear the content like many of us do right now, you can get away with it, but you won’t be able to forever. The tougher heroics are still going to require you to actually line of sight (LOS) pull. And while, certainly, you can do all kinds of trickery like shooting then charging in on your target, you’re really just playing with fire.
So, don’t use Charge in combat?
No, definitely still do use it in combat to move between Crowd Control (CC) targets, but pull with it sparingly, cautiously and logically. After all, if it’s just the rage you’re after… why not just Charge a Critter?
November 18th, 2008 at 9:45 am
I thought about this many times, but hadn’t really used it. I will charge into a couple of pulls as long as my healer knows that’s what I’m doing, but for the most part I had been backpedaling then charging when they got where I wanted them, but charging into critters was something I had mostly used to shorten the run back after a wipe, kind of like a mage’s blink (probably because my first 70 was my mage). I might have to charge critters more often now before pulls.
One use I have found for charging into a pull is on bosses. Most are immune, but this gives you 2 benefits aside from the rage. 1) you get there first, so you’ve got a second or two to do some burst threat, 2) you automatically turn the boss away from the group.
On a side note I just wanted to say thanks for this site. My warrior just hit 70 in time to run kara one time, the day before the expansion, so I don’t have a lot of experience, but I’ve gotten a lot of compliments on my tanking, and I owe most of that to your site. I had my guild’s MT (respec’d ret pally for fun while lvling) comment on how much threat I was putting out. I promote your site to any warriors that ask me about tanking. Keep it up!
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November 18th, 2008 at 10:29 am
Now I certainly haven’t done any heroics yet, and wildly out gear the content that I have been doing, (and compensate by pulling 2-3 groups at once) but I’m not sure what’s wrong with pulling with charge.
Charge, thunderclap, shockwave, then shield block once the stun wears off… there’s not a lot of burst damage there, so your healer should have plenty of time to get into the fight.
Even in a case where you want to CC for high levels of sustained damage, I’d prefer to get some solid initial agro on all targets with the same pattern and then back everything up as CC goes off.
Sap makes things more complicated I suppose, but the rogue’s just going to die anyway. =P
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admin reply on November 18, 2008 11:06 am:
Especially with Heroics you don’t know, there’s the increased risk of pulling a pat or a 2nd group by charging. Not to mention that if you charge something that’s not stunnable you’re going to get very disoriented and greatly hindered your chances of effectively using Shockwave.
The risk of too much burst isn’t about you dieing so much as the situation of … you take burst damage, healer heals you, healer pulls aggro… Chaos ensues.
There’s just a lot of risks associated with Charge that simply aren’t associated with Throwing at stuff. I agree that Charge isn’t a never use to pull, but people have to understand that’s it is definitely also not an always use to pull.
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November 18th, 2008 at 10:48 am
I’ve had a lot of fun charging into combat, but I’ve experienced a couple drawbacks:
1) Sometimes I end up with my back to one or more mobs, probably as a result of server lag and me moving and the mobs moving. In the current dungeons this isn’t a serious problem. I can foresee it being a problem in harder-hitting dungeons.
2) Sometimes the current group is a little too close to the next group, putting you at risk of pulling the next group. You can pull them from a body pull, or can pull them if the current group has a melee knockback move like the barbarians in the icy western area of the Nexus.
Sometimes I try to deal with #2 this by pulling with a ranged weapon, running back a little bit, then I turn and charge, but this leads back to problem #1: if the mobs are in motion when I charge, my charge leaves me at a somewhat random position in respect to my target, and I have to quickly flip around and or reposition.
So - charging is lots of fun now. I expect I’ll have to be more careful in the future.
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November 18th, 2008 at 11:24 am
Last night I did a few heroics. There were pulls where I charge in but if it’s a pack of 4+ elite I usually ask for a cc. We finished Heroic Nexus and AZN.
Speaking of tanking heroics … I need to get def cap quick. I was getting crit left and right. I might regem some stuff for +def while getting some gear. I have tons of badges still so I guess that’s where it’s going.
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November 18th, 2008 at 11:39 am
The only time I actually charge into combat is on caster bosses. Heroic throw + charge gives me enough rage and aggro to be able to shield slam + reflect the first spell (if it is reflectable). Otherwise, I try not to use it unless I am an offtank and have to go pick up adds.
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November 18th, 2008 at 12:51 pm
I have been very reckless with Charge in the new instances, seeing as I am still overgeared for them. There have been booboos with adds and such, so I am well aware of all the dangers involved.
I also like the backpedalling approach. If I want to pull a bit more safely, I use my thrown weapon to pull, move back, and then charge when I can. That’s worked fine so far.
Charging critters will be great in heroics, looking forward to that. I
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November 18th, 2008 at 1:04 pm
I think one overlooked rage generator is berserker rage. Now that it is usable from defensive stance, I am using it every time the cooldown is up (assuming I don’t need it to break a fear of course).
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Bent reply on November 18, 2008 2:00 pm:
Yeap. I would hope any prot warroir that has done a 1 pull or 2 pull since 3.0 has come out has dicovered the use of berskerker rage. Even if
you are trying to lvl using AE pulls, when you are down to the last 1-2
mobs I find myself running out of rage. It is a short short cooldown too.
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Veneretio reply on November 18, 2008 2:20 pm:
While I agree that Berserker Rage can and should be used more now than it was in the past due to it’s new stance and the lack of fears, I have to disagree with always using it whenever it’s up.
It’s on the Global Cooldown.
So if you’re using it… you aren’t killing things. I like to kill things.
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rochelle reply on November 19, 2008 8:43 am:
I suppose that was hyberbole on my part, I don’t actually use it on every cooldown, but compared to the extremely rare use zrage used to get, it sure feels like it. For the 5-mans I have been doing (no heroics yet), its just a zerg through the instance with all aoe tanking all the time and after tclap and shockwave to open, I have a few seconds to spare before tclap comes off CD and that is where I usually slip in the zrage. While it does take up a GCD which could be better utilized if I was concerned with single target threat, in practice, I am better off with more rage because cleave is expensive and single target threat really doesn’t matter.
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Vrathmat reply on November 19, 2008 9:40 am:
If anything, you can hit it right after you pull so you’re not wasting GCD space.
So many buttons, so little toolbar space!
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November 18th, 2008 at 1:58 pm
Charging critters is also useful if you want to break free of a net and all the mobs are too close. (requires warbringer of course).
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November 18th, 2008 at 2:02 pm
whats so hard about shooting, running back and then charging when they are at the kill spot?
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Veneretio reply on November 18, 2008 2:07 pm:
Last sentence of the post… why are you doing it?
Charging just for the sake of Charging doesn’t make sense. Keep in mind, Charging will also contribute to the Diminishing Returns of your stuns so if you’re actively using Shockwave, Concussion Blow and have Improved Revenge… You run the risk of a 1 second stun making a mob immune to your longer duration stuns.
Perhaps not super relevant atm, but when we get to heroics/raid trash that actually lives for a decent timeframe… it could be very relevant.
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Kavtor reply on November 18, 2008 3:44 pm:
Imp. revenge is on it’s own set of DR, so it shouldn’t interfere with the rest.
Although charge setting DR on Conc Blow definitely limits things.
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Vivilros reply on April 27, 2009 3:40 pm:
Now of course the worries about stuns and such don’t matter, but I’ll agree with you, charging JUST for the sake of charging is silly, I like to charge, a lot… I admit I have charged into groups and gotten the next group over, but luckily I can just hit a few cooldowns superdps a few down and we’re good to go
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November 18th, 2008 at 2:36 pm
I must admit I am a huge fan of charging to the mob at the back of the pull (as illustrated in Ciderhelms movie) Spin around TClap and Shockwave. Certainly agree there are drawbacks Vene and just because we can get away with pretty much anything right now doesn’t necessarily mean we should start learning bad habits. Can easily result in pulling adds too if you are not very carefull. healer needs to be on the ball too, as they should be.
What is so good about charging groups on the spot is that never have any issues with getting casters in range. They are right there from the start. Trying to use LOS in pugs (in my experience) is a nightmare.
All going to come to an end once I start gettting into harder content and actually have to start marking targets again, even asking the mage to (gasp) sheep something. Mages might start providing more than just tables and ports again lol.
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November 18th, 2008 at 4:03 pm
I normally pop my Shield Block/Autoblocker macro when I charge. The sequence goes: Charge the group of mobs, on the way there pop the macro. It greatly reduces the initial incoming damage and virtually guarantees I’m getting good threat on every mob (that isn’t a caster, but I usually will charge the caster and give it my shield slam). Will I do this in heroics? Probably not the first time, but once I’ve been able to judge an instance I may do it again.
I know the mages in my guild are feeling a little hurt now that I no longer ask them to sheep stuff. It’s especially hurting to them now that we also have ret pallies, who can put a mob to sleep for 60 seconds, instacast.
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November 18th, 2008 at 7:02 pm
One more thing i ve found about charging critters: i dont know if any1 else tought about this before but never read it anywhere.
Well the thing is that if u can charge critter but dont attack(thus dont kill it) u can pretty much stay in combat for 10 secs or more while poor little fella running away in fear. This way u can prevent rage decay and gain some rage via Charge
The way to do it is just like a rogue cheap shotting a sapped target without breaking it. Either u stop autoattacking(which is hard) or u turn your face somewhere else on the way your charge to your target…
If u dont turn around in time u will get 15 rage+Autoattack rage killing criterbut if u know u r gonna w8 couple of secs(for mana break or etc.)it is wiser not to kill critter but stay in combat to prevent rage decay
I ve found this extremely useful in almost every situation which doesnt require eating or something that requires being out of combat.
ps: sorry for bad english
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November 19th, 2008 at 1:17 am
This is why I love reading this blog. New ideas. Charge a critter; why didn’t I think of that? Stupid me, such a simple idea. And brilliant.
Thanks again Vene. And everyeone else who contributes.
Khrushchev, can you post that macro you mention?
*$
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November 19th, 2008 at 3:32 am
Fun Idea, but…
If a Critter is in sight you can bet your typical Mage has spotted (and shot) it first.
No rage today, my critter’s gone away
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Chet reply on November 19, 2008 7:17 am:
oh yeah, trust me, after reading that initial post way back, I’ve started yelling at my dps (in a friendly way at least) saying things like “you stole my rage cookie!” to kind of train them as we go, so maybe when I need that rage in harder instances, they won’t have taken it.
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November 19th, 2008 at 7:18 am
Poor critters.
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Arideni reply on November 19, 2008 9:12 am:
DEHTA & GETA are definitely going to have something to say about this.
Let us hope they don’t spraypaint graffiti all over his banner…
“KRITTER KILLER,” =0
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November 20th, 2008 at 2:47 am
mmm i dunno… im lvl 80 with wotlk blue stuff and tanking regular lvl 80 instances like this is a piece of cake (im at 537 def rating). I dont know yet, but i can imagine that with a few wotlk epic pieces it will be quite the same for heroics. For now i think ill keep charging at the trash, i love the rage boost from the initial damage taken, it gives me enough rage to use skills on all the mobs that are shockwaved. I might return to pulling stuff with LoS and throwing weapons in 10/25 man raids, but for now well dam… its just too sexy
there are situations though where charging is a no-go, oculus for example with all the casting trash or when there are several groups and pats close to each other like in stone halls. but overall this is just the way i love tanking, it gives me a feeling of total control when i charge, tc, shockwave and i have those stunned mobs lined up in front of me. i can even throw a look around and see if theres anything i can see that might become dangerous (like pats around the corner and such).
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November 20th, 2008 at 9:04 am
I haven’t hit the “hard stuff” yet. I don’t just use charge for the Rage. Since I PuG *everything*, its often just a matter of being the best way to keep that aggro from the start, because the DPS are often overeager. With LoS or ranged pulling, the timing can be real awkward. Mobs come 1 or 2 at a time, and it always seems to increase the chance that the healer will do *something* that aggros all the mobs on them that I couldn’t reach yet.
Pull->backpedal->Charge is a pretty decent compromise, and I use it pretty frequently, but if there is a mob that always hangs back I’m in a tight spot with it. I tend to Charge the lead mob when I’m doing this, as it allows my follow up Thunderclap->Shockwave->Demo. Shout to have maximum effect, and likely means that even if I lost something for a brief moment, I will pick them up again, or at least have them temporarily stunned to work over with some other abilities.
I still LoS when its appropriate, but as someone said, pulls like that tend to devolve into utter chaos pretty quickly. We’re finally paying the bill for the sloppiness and laziness of players in the pre-expansion patch, in my opinion.
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November 24th, 2008 at 11:56 am
Vene? There’s these guys from DHETA at the door, they want a word with you?
Nice trick, I’ll certainly keep it in mind when my less-than-stellar-geared warrior starts going through the instances.
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November 25th, 2008 at 4:47 pm
I find the timing simpler w/ a shoot, run away (while CC happens), zerker rage, bloodrage, charge. Rediculous rage to start a pull.
No downside if you charge at the point you started at and usable independent of the existance of a critter, so easier on muscle memory.
Re: deminishing returns, I always always charge something I won’t want to stun (non-caster, usually) so I have concussion blow free for casters later on. And as for the charge/tclap/shockwave/demo shout - it could be argued its an advantage to shorten the stun on one target for rage gains and revenge procs.
Great advice in general Vene, but not feeling this one.
PS: the tip about charging and hitting ‘esc’ to prevent killing a critter is a good one; I love that parlor trick all the time. (re: gomsah)
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November 26th, 2008 at 2:37 am
I’ve been doing the same since I noticed the abundance of crittes lately. Except that you gotta warn your party beforehand otherwise especially mages frustrate your rage management with their instant spells for no other reason than killing the critter.
The new warrior plea: “Plx dont kill the rats :
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December 2nd, 2008 at 5:35 am
Just like Kavtor said with a slight adjustment.
Charge is one of the best ways to pull in any instance as long as u dont put urself at risk to pull attitional groups and u dont line of sight urself.
The rage boost u get from a charge will let u fire off a Thunderclap(u got em all) then a Shockwave( when stunned u arent taking any damage whatsoever) and the this combo means u have a lot of aoe threat out the door. Next slip in a demo shout to nerf out some of the damage u will sustain then go with the shield block(popping the block right after shockwave wastes a couple seconds of the shield block)
There is one addition that really works if u dont need to save it for potential loose mobs, is use heroic throw just before the charge, especially on an off target (great way to lock in aggro on that off target)
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December 25th, 2008 at 5:16 am
For my part pull run back and charge is ok if do wisely ofc. First u try to mack some distance with the mob, kite them, and when they far way from their original position u charge them. But man get something the moment when u decide to charge, the mob u decide to ch
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January 6th, 2009 at 4:30 pm
Never had a problem pulling with ranged / heroic throw, running back and then charging in.
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February 14th, 2010 at 10:22 pm
the really fun trick: you can charge a critter and if you are fast enough, deselect and turn away to avoid attacking it. if it doesn’t die, you remain in combat (no rage decay) for the rest of your charge cooldown. then you can charge again for more rage. a great place to practice this is in VH where you can do this a few times after a boss wave and head into the first new pack with a lot of rage. also note that cockroach critters will attack the player if in combat, and then almost surely die to Damage Shield reflected damage.
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