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75 Responses to “Expertise is always better than Hit”

1. Eraan Says:
   January 7th, 2009 at 11:02 am

   I was just thinking this morning I needed to figure out the new hit and expertise caps. Thanks Vene!

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2. Arvernien Says:
   January 7th, 2009 at 11:03 am

   Vene,
   Great article! Thanks for the expertise and hit target values (caps).

   One small typo:
   Expertise is reducing a bosses chance to Parry whereas Hit Rating is simply reducing a bosses chance to Miss.

   I think this should read:
   Expertise is reducing a bosses chance to Parry whereas Hit Rating is simply reducing your chance to miss a boss.

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   Veneretio reply on January 7, 2009 11:44 am:

   Ya, I tried a lot of different versions of that sentence (including one identical to the one you’ve suggested) and didn’t really like how any of them sounded. The trickiness of that sentence is that people don’t seem to get that reducing chance to Parry is the same as increasing chance to Hit. (and end up thinking Hit > Expertise for threat which we know isn’t the case)

   That being said, you’re right that what I’ve wrote just isn’t accurate so while I still struggle with the sentence you suggest. I think I’ll just have to go with it being the lesser of many evils.

   Also, it’s good to see that people read these long-winded articles carefully too. Thanks!

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3. Gallin Says:
   January 7th, 2009 at 11:11 am

   Hey Vene,

   Another great post! I don’t get parried very much in Naxx 10 or 25…maybe 3% or less, and never dodged. I think I may have gone a bit overboard when gearing up on Expertise though. Last week I had 224 total…and now I’m slowly coming down off that cloud. I still hate seeing “Parry” when I go for a Shield Slam though.

   One last thing…I thought the hit rating cap was 9%…

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   Meatgazer reply on January 7, 2009 11:19 am:

   Hit rating cap used to be 9%, but when WotLK came out, some guys at EJ did some testing and came up with 8% as the cap.

   I’ve been rocking 8% in my arms gear, and haven’t seen a miss yet.

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4. Meatgazer Says:
   January 7th, 2009 at 11:13 am

   The only benefit hit has over expertise is for skills like Thunderclap, Shockwave, and Taunt. They cannot be dodged or parried, so expertise does not help these attacks.

   I think that a mob casting cannot dodge or parry, but can be missed. For when interrupts need to happen, hit helps more than expertise. That might only be against another player though.

   That being said, the benefit of avoiding parries makes expertise win, everytime.

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   admin reply on January 7, 2009 11:52 am:

   All good points especially your conclusion.

   I’ll admit I had consider adding the few benefits that Hit offered, but frankly wanted this article to be really bias (plus it was already really long) since I didn’t want players trying to justify Hit > Expertise and ultimately, allowing themselves to be lazy and consider sticking with their 16 hit gems to be okay when it’s just not.

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   Caim reply on January 7, 2009 12:07 pm:

   Ya! The Aoe tanking by warrior is required mainly for hit. I think that the trash or some boss which required taunt hit rating is better than expertise.
   And something about Skill Racial, It isn’t all racial that have weapon skill will proride 5 expertise skill point. The exception is human which only proride both 3 skill point for hammer and sword

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   Sumendis reply on January 7, 2009 6:58 pm:

   The situation with spellcasts is the same for mobs and players, they can’t dodge or parry while casting but you can still miss if you’re not hit capped.

   Only place where this could potentially be an issue is Kel’thuzad if you’re running without any other classes that can interrupt. His frostbolts do hurt if you let him chaincast them.

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   Ivanstone reply on January 11, 2009 7:49 am:

   Generally true but Blizzard will rewrite the rules to add flavour to a boss fight. Shield Bash also has two other additional effects where expertise does apply. It can be preemptively used on caster opponents to fill the gap between stats thus locking down all casts. Its also your only snare in defensive stance.

   In any event its generally a good idea to be able to exchange one of the stats for another. I generally prefer a little more hit on fights like KT where you need to have accurate interrupting as well as some add picking up duty. On KT10 I typically pick up all adds in P3 as well as act as lead interrupter.

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5. Ilovetarana Says:
   January 7th, 2009 at 11:51 am

   Just a note, sword/mace/axe racial is ony 3 skill now, not 5 anymore..

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   admin reply on January 7, 2009 12:27 pm:

   Axes is still 5 for Orcs and Maces are still 5 for Dwarfs, but you’re right that Humans only get 3 towards Swords and Maces. Thanks for point this out, I’ve updated the post to reflect this.

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6. Yakra Says:
   January 7th, 2009 at 11:58 am

   Very well written.

   I’m link to it in the Hit/Expertise part of my WoWhead Sticky, if you don’t mind.

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   admin reply on January 7, 2009 12:23 pm:

   Definitely have nothing against that, thanks for the link

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7. Tyler Says:
   January 7th, 2009 at 12:22 pm

   Wow, great article, Vene. It was long but I read the whole thing. I was under the impression that hit was better than expertise, so I’m glad you took the time to write this! I had actually been resentful of a +12 expertise gem I needed to socket to get a meta gem req, but in fact it was probably the best choice I could have made! I also didn’t understand why all my gear had +expertise rather than +hit, not realizing that I was getting the better of the two.

   What really summed it up for me was:

   32.79 Hit rating = 1% Hit
   32.79 Expertise Rating = 4 Expertise Skill = 1% Dodge reduction & 1% Parry reduction

   ^^ Expertise is 2 for 1 until capped.

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8. Skeletaur Says:
   January 7th, 2009 at 12:26 pm

   Does HIT and Expertise take up the same item budget? I tried some research, but could not find out anything. If Hit takes up less budget, then wouldn’t it be better to aim for items with Hit when the values are identical? You would end up with more other stats overall.

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   Skeletaur reply on January 7, 2009 12:28 pm:

   I guess if the item budget would have to be a LOT cheaper , since you explained that Hit never really equals expertise

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   admin reply on January 7, 2009 12:29 pm:

   Same budget and even if it wasn’t the same budget. More stats does not equal better necessarily because as this post indicates early on Expertise is literally twice as good as Hit.

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9. marklar Says:
   January 7th, 2009 at 12:47 pm

   very nice summary. but since you included the other racials, you should probably note the draenei racial since it lowers their hit cap.

   i find almost impossible to AVOID being hit capped as a draenei just from gear, whereas expertise is harder to come by.

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   admin reply on January 7, 2009 1:00 pm:

   LOL, good call. You silly alliance folk are hard to remember :p

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10. bondetamp Says:
    January 7th, 2009 at 1:21 pm

    I think it is worth mentioning that for any fight where you just dps, you only need to worry about the dodge cap. This make +hit more viable for your dps gear, and you might want to make sure that you’re not going over the cap.

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    Ebs2002 reply on January 7, 2009 3:14 pm:

    That makes +hit and +expertise EQUAL for your dps gear. Not “more viable”.

    As a primarily fury warrior, the only time I’d consider taking 100hit over 100expertise is if I had to keep up thunderclap…but that never happens as we have a bajillion warriors in my guild and many of them are tanking.

    On the other hand, expertise is more valuable for fights where you may be parried (fights with AE damage going on, for instance). Until capped, of course

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    bondetamp reply on January 8, 2009 12:45 am:

    Well, I tried to say that “it makes +hit more viable for your dps gear (than for your tanking gear)”, rather than “more viable (than Expertise)”. I see I was being unclear.

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    thanatas reply on January 8, 2009 9:49 am:

    Actually HIT > EXP for non tanking warriors.

    Mobs DO NOT parry from behind.

    This makes the expertise cap 6.5% and the hit cap 8%.

    Therefore, hit can push more “not hits” off the table then expertise can.

    Regardless, as dps you should get both capped.

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    Blithlyle reply on January 8, 2009 11:59 am:

    “Actually HIT > EXP for non tanking warriors.”

    This is not true. Hit and Expertise are equal if you are uncapped for either one. You just need more hit to reach the hit cap or “special hit cap” for fury warriors than you need expertise to reach the expertise cap to eliminate dodge.

    That does not make hit BETTER, it just means you need more of it.

    Chet reply on January 8, 2009 12:11 pm:

    I think the point was that you can stack more hit, so being hit capped is better than being dodge capped. This wasn’t communicated well by saying hit > exp though, because that simply isn’t true, if both offer the same benefit up to their respective caps. hit > exp. past the dodge cap maybe, except for encounters in which you might be in front of the boss, but that’s a lot of qualifications for hit to be better than exp., so it’s hardly even worth arguing for it in my opinion

11. Gravelayar Says:
    January 7th, 2009 at 2:07 pm

    Just what I was looking for! One place to see all the information I’m looking for that I know today but but will forget tomorrow. Now can you do this same thing for all the classes so I can point guild members to one place?

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12. Parah Says:
    January 7th, 2009 at 4:25 pm

    An important thing to remember when doing calculations with gear for expertise is that there is no “partial skill for expertise”. Your dodge/parry removal is calculated based on skill not rating. Try not to waste your rating when you can. =D

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13. Sumendis Says:
    January 7th, 2009 at 7:24 pm

    Well the examples C D and E are a bit misleading because you’re already past the hit cap in those, so the actual effective hit you’re getting would yet again be lower than what you’re getting from expertise… I know you’re talking about the caps further down, so maybe I’m just knitpicking here

    What i’m not really sold on is the parry chance that you claim to be 16% on a raidboss. I haven’t seen that particular number anywhere yet, maybe I’ve missed some threads on tankspot or EJ ? Has there been some recent testing ?
    In Satrina’s WOTLK FAQ over at tankspot, the parry chance is given as 14.25%. An older thread on EJ reported 13% parry chance from extensive testing on Mandokir in ZG (if memory serves me right). And there was even a blue post some while back stating that parry chance can be slightly different on each boss as a means of fine-tuning the encounter.
    After all this I personally still like to believe that we dont’ really know the exact parry chance and that it does actually vary from boss to boss. It is most likely in the range of 13-16%.

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    Veneretio reply on January 8, 2009 12:03 am:

    The examples shown are of only 200 hit rating and as the article states, the caps are higher than that so the examples aren’t misleading at all.

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    Sumendis reply on January 8, 2009 5:17 am:

    Doh sorry, I misread the titles I thought it started at 100 hit rating and added 200, but it was expertise… Sorry I’m the only misleading one here …

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    Naka reply on January 8, 2009 9:18 am:

    Last number i read on parry cap for WotLK was 14% on EJ.

    Fact is, we don’t _know_ it for sure at this time, and it is probably varying from boss to boss. I’d really like to read that information here, that fixed 16% is what i find misleading.

    Apart from that, great post.

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14. PsyWulf Says:
    January 8th, 2009 at 6:11 am

    I always love your posts but here I want to make a few things clear

    When you launch any attack against a mob using a melee weapon it’ll enter an area known as the Roll table

    Each melee auto attack made by characters against mobs will result in one of the following in order of precedence:
    Miss
    Dodge
    Parry
    Glancing blow
    Block
    Critical strike
    Hit

    Hit chance doesn’t work by increasing the amount of “Hit” on this table. Instead, it works by decreasing the amount of miss.

    So first the roll checks whether you miss/land an attack. If you Hit rating is 0 your expertise will not help negate this roll. Only Hit (racials,rating etc) will give you improved chance on beating the roll. Thereafter it checks a dodge where expertise factors in.

    Imagine hit as being how well you aim,while expertise is speed of the bullet. If you’re aiming for the moon and trying to hit a mouse no amount of speed will save that bullet from heading to the middle of nowhere.

    While expertise is a fantastic stat your attack needs to stand a chance at landing before you can even worry about it being dodged.

    Dodge/Miss do not fall under the same roll. Beware

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    admin reply on January 8, 2009 7:42 am:

    This is completely incorrect information.

    Improving hit converts misses to hits. Improving Expertise converts Dodges and Parries to hits. There is only 1 roll not multiple. 1% is 1% is 1%. You are dead wrong.

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    Ridlyblade reply on January 8, 2009 9:31 am:

    And I’m going to apologize ahead of time for intruding on Vene’s Wall of Text territory.

    I was debating making a 100 line list to break down the attack table for plain as day explanation (based off having no racial weapon/hit and stark naked)…but I decided better of that.

    The thing to remember if anybody decides to do this:

    Critical Hits are HITS that do double damage.

    So say you start at 1 filling in “things that aren’t hits” (parry, dode, miss, block, glance…) once you’re done with “things that aren’t hits, work your way to 100 with just writing in “hit”.

    Then work your way back down (starting at 100) the list of hits and for every % of crit you have, line out hit and write Critical.

    Then as you want to add in “hit %” and expertise, for every 1% of each you have line out miss and a dodge and parry and write in hit.

    (Yes I know, you’re going to say “but dodge chance is 6.5%”. To which i’ll respond, “For big picture concept grasping, round up to the nearest whoele number)

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    PsyWulf reply on January 9, 2009 2:42 am:

    To which I will reply

    http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html;jsessionid=34438D4BBE7F060AB00CF352254F70B9.app09_04?topicId=3190659937&sid=1

    Among others

    Expertise - Avoid dodge/Parry
    Hit - avoid Misses

    These 2 do not fall under the same category

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    Veneretio reply on January 9, 2009 7:39 am:

    Now while you did figure out your own confusion below, please try to refrain from linking to the rogue or other dps sections when discussing topics on this site. DPSers play by very different rules than tanks and as a result, what and how they discuss things often leads to misinformation in regards to us.

    PsyWulf reply on January 9, 2009 3:01 am:

    Aha I finally grasp where the confusion is stemming from.

    The Attack-roll table has a similar chance to miss as to dodge ( 5% To miss,6.5% dodge )

    Certainly stacking expertise would be handy to remove dodge/parry chance but doesn’t replace hit. Only offsets a different part of the attack table.

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    Ridlyblade reply on January 9, 2009 7:42 am:

    Ok so me grouping them together as “things that aren’t hits” seems to have caused some confusion. So I’ll do a quick illustration of what i meant…(random numbers that in no way reflect my nor anybody i knows gear set up)

    Assume you have 5% to miss, 5% to get parried, 5% to get dodged. Also…Jimbob in question is naked and a Troll (i.e.no weapon/hit racials)
    Making the chart like i mentioned will go as such:

    1 Miss
    2 Miss
    3 Miss
    4 Miss
    5 Miss
    6 Parry
    7 Parry
    8 Parry
    9 Parry
    10 Parry
    11 Dodge
    12 Dodge
    13 Dodge
    14 Dodge
    15 Dodge

    So from there, say you gain 1% hit…you replace the #5 miss, to read “5 Hit”

    Also, lets say you gain 4 Expertise skill (since 1 expertise skill is .25% reduction) take #6 Parry and #11 dodge and replace both with hit.

15. Barsh Says:
    January 8th, 2009 at 7:12 am

    Actually, my priest friend & I were discussing this the other day… if I’m not mistaken this is a common misconception that the author is trying to dispell here. I’ve been wondering for a while which is correct, maybe someone can clear it up once and for all here.

    I think that a seperate check for whether you hit or not and then what actually happens to that hit may be the norm for most RPGs but it is not in WoW. IIRC the table you layed out (miss/dodge/parry/etc…) is correct, but only one can happen. So then, getting +hit or +expertise both increase the ammount of times the “dice” land in the hit or crit area because both of them shink one of the “miss” areas. Anyone know for sure?

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    Meatgazer reply on January 8, 2009 7:38 am:

    It’s something that is up in the air, and it doesn’t seem that it occurs for all classes (if it does, it’s hard to tell).

    Either way, the two rolls are Avoidance and outcome. So dodge and parry are also in the first roll with miss and thus expertise makes the first roll hit more than hit rating.

    So Expertise is still better and you should pick it before hit.

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    admin reply on January 8, 2009 7:43 am:

    Casters have to hit before they can crit. Melee does not. They are different systems. Melee is done with a single roll.

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    Furiat/Vegelus reply on January 9, 2009 3:06 am:

    Since when? o.O
    Half of TBC and WotLK was about melee&hunters having 2 roll system, while casters are on 1 roll only. This makes hit/expertise even more important for physical classes than before (as crit rate have it’s full potential only when hit/expertise capped).

    Easiest to test that was fighting with banshes (like ones in Plaguelands) - or any mob that casts -hit% debuff.

    On 1 roll system you at some point of crit rate you shouldn’t be seeing any hits, only crits (talking from hunter PoV, so no glancing/parries/dodges). And yet, we’re seeing amount of hits and crits that proves 2 roll system for us.
    Sadly, can’t link any EJs threads but that’s where sources and tests were (and still are).

    http://www.wowwiki.com/Hit proves that it’s true only for specials, so I’m really confused now.

16. Beefbringer Says:
    January 8th, 2009 at 9:02 am

    I have heard now that DPS also need expertise even attacking from the rear of a boss now that apparently bosses can dodge and parry from behind.

    Is this true? If so I need to point this post on my guild forum to save me taking extra kicking.

    please confirm.

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    Kro reply on January 8, 2009 9:07 am:

    They can dodge. I don’t believe they can parry.

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    Ridlyblade reply on January 8, 2009 9:34 am:

    Bosses have always been able to dodge from behind. They still haven’t figured out how to pull off the Darth Maul parry from behind maneuver yet though.

    The confusion might stem from PvP. You can’t block, parry or dodge from behind in PvP, just hit/crit or miss. So if you go from a pure PvP mind set to PvE dodging from behind seems like a new concept.

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17. Tom Says:
    January 8th, 2009 at 10:19 am

    WOW Great article! EXACTLY What I was needing to know. However does anyone know of a site that explains exactly how the combat table works? Something that takes us though the:

    When I attack Mob - what determines if I hit, miss, or he dodges or parry? Is their two “rolls” for this? Do I “roll” to see if I hit / miss and does he “roll” to see if he dodges or parrys?
    When is armor reduction on damage determined?
    When are resistance calculations made?
    How do magic attacks differ from melee attacks?

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    Velcro reply on January 8, 2009 11:22 am:

    I’m pretty sure that I just read up on it from wowwiki, there are pages there for how the attack table works. It was a little dated information because the version that I looked at didn’t have expertise in it, and there weren’t real good examples for a tank. It did have a few scenarios and examples of how the table would be calculated and how hit/dodge/parry/crit all affect one another.

    The page I read also tanked about the possibility of there being a 2 roll system, but then went through all the data that supported that there isn’t a 2 roll system.

    I’d link the page, but can’t get there through the work firewall.

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    Clyde reply on January 12, 2009 12:27 pm:

    The best place to read up on the details on the combat table is over at Tankspot. Here is a link to Satrina’s article on the combat table, but don’t stop there! Lots and lots of good information in this forum.

    http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f63/33093-combat-table.html

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18. CasualAggroholic Says:
    January 8th, 2009 at 10:41 am

    Tom, you read my mind…

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19. Ipick Says:
    January 8th, 2009 at 12:38 pm

    Even if the attack table was on a two role system (I affirmly believe it to be one based on the data but playing devil’s advocate).

    Base chance to miss is 8%
    So assuming 1% expertise vs. 1% hit

    1% hit= 1% chance of increased hits

    1% expertise = .92% +.92%= 1.84% increased hits before dodge cap
    1% expertise =.92% increased hits
    Plus 1% expertise = reduces swing timer by 40% unless resulting in 20%
    = on average by 24% increased swing time speed
    Therefore assuming all damage comes from his melee swing ( not accurate but some assumption must be made)
    1% expertise reduces swing timer by .0124 (check my math on this one).

    Realistically bosses have many attacks that are not affected by swing timers so it will be less. This is just to give a max

    Bottom Line past dodge cap
    1% hit =1% increased chance to Hit
    1% Expertise= .92% increased hit + 1.24ish Less damage taken (when you need it most)

    WITH a 2 roll system (which is incorrect) . So yeah even with a 2 roll system i’ll take my expertise

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    Ipick reply on January 8, 2009 12:45 pm:

    *Edit the DR based on expertise is a max value please do not go around quoting that some bosses can’t parry haste therefore its zero, Also many bosses the majority of their attacks come from nonmelee attacks and the DR will only be a small portion of that.

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20. Pryscilla Says:
    January 8th, 2009 at 2:48 pm

    I think this could have been worded a bit less emphatically. There are enough ’situational’ cases where hit is important that capping hit after you soft-cap (dodge cap) expertise is a pretty decent strategy for most of your gear.

    Max threat gear is generally reserved for easier fights where you’re less apt to be parry-gibbed anyway, and you have to balance parry hasting against misses for the following abilities:

    Thunder clap (if nobody else is keeping it up)
    Demo shout
    Shockwave

    Missing a Tclap debuff may result in more overall hits taken than you would save from the expertise to avoid those parries. So in the effort to take fewer hits, expertise isn’t always the best solution.

    Not to mention any AOE pull, or if you have to tank transition (Gluth, 4H) and you don’t want to miss a taunt.

    I think the main thing to take away is that hit and expertise have the same value past the ‘dodge cap’, which people may not realize, in terms of landing attacks, and focused on the secondary benefits of each.

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21. Hydrix Says:
    January 9th, 2009 at 10:25 am

    Why is 8% suddenly the yellow hit cap number people are throwing around? Was it not always 9% before? What gives?

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    Furiat/Vege reply on January 10, 2009 2:22 am:

    It’s changed in WotLK.

    Here’s the EJ’s main source:

    http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t37856-melee_hit_cap_really_9_a/

    It was tested by many people and all tests prove that physical hit cap (in case of DWers - specials’ hit cap) is currently 8% (263 hit rating without talents/racials).

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22. Ekzteg Says:
    January 9th, 2009 at 11:13 am

    Great discussion, this has been really fun to read.

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23. Myzery Says:
    January 9th, 2009 at 2:00 pm

    Some gross generalizations. but a good discussion.

    What is the expertise cap for trash/heroics? What is the hit cap for trash/heroics?

    How much expertise do you have? How much hit do you have?

    I find myself constantly banging the expertise cap on trash/heroics, but yet lacking hit.

    Expertise is not always better then hit when making gear choices. Pound-for-pound, expertise is certainly better but when you get into the upper echelon of gear you will find yourself lacking hit. Maybe it’s just my own gearing strategy, I probably need to start gemming for hit.

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    Meatgazer reply on January 9, 2009 2:22 pm:

    The point isn’t that you need a mix of both. The point is that if you’re not expertise hard-capped, expertise is better than hit. They both increase your chance of hitting the mob equally, but the expertise prevents parry-counters. Yes, if you’re banging the hard cap on expertise on trash (probably around 50 expertise skill), you’ll get more out of hit. But until you hit that cap, even 1% before that cap, expertise is better than hit, even if you have 0 hit rating.

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    Pryscilla reply on January 9, 2009 5:13 pm:

    “But until you hit that cap, even 1% before that cap, expertise is better than hit, even if you have 0 hit rating.”

    I just don’t agree with that statement (see my post above).

    Taunt resists, misses on non-weapon abilities and whiffing on spell interrupts (when the mob cannot dodge or parry) all create irregularities in tanking that can be worse than getting parried. Hit shouldn’t be so de-emphasized.

    Situationally, depending on the encounter, expertise *can* be far better, in all but the most patchwerk-style encounter where you have a raid of people behind you to debuff the mob, there are no casts ;to interrupt and no need to taunt, I’m personally still going to choose expertise soft cap > hit cap > expertise hard cap.

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    Kogrash reply on January 10, 2009 9:25 am:

    /sign

    I don’t like the “always”, too.

    Most of the time a parry in 5-man-heroics is no problem but a missing taunt may cost your healers life.
    Or being 2nd tank at archavon.
    Or trying to collect all mobs at Gothik before they kill your healers.
    Or…

    Meatgazer reply on January 12, 2009 7:16 am:

    Whenever you’re concerned about your healers or taunting off on archavon, you can also use other skills at your disposal. Don’t gem/spec for 5-man (you shouldn’t have any problems anyways).

    The only time taunt should be required is as a gimmick in a fight, In those cases, you can usually use your vigilence to prevent wipes due to taunt resist (worked on Bear boss in ZA, works in VoA). If it absolutely needs to happen, you can always use mocking blow or challenging shout.

    As far as the spell interrupts go, there are just as many bosses where spell interrupts can make or break the fight as there are bosses where parry-gib can make or break the fight. The difference is that other people can do interrupts (people who are hit capped) and only you can prevent parry-gib.

    Longrod reply on January 13, 2009 6:21 am:

    Since when is taunt a gimmick? are you joking?
    Taunt is critical and for some fights in Naxx you can’t NOT taunt.

    Missing a taunt can wipe the raid easily.

    I’m interested in expertise, but in no way do I believe it is better than hit.

    We are there to take damage, a parry should cause a wipe just because the next swing comes 40% sooner.

    Missing a taunt or shield slam on an aggro reset - that wipes you.

    Longrod reply on January 13, 2009 6:22 am:

    “We are there to take damage, a parry should NOT cause a wipe just because the next swing comes 40% sooner.”

    Meatgazer reply on January 14, 2009 7:33 am:

    Gimmick means a trick, a part of the plan. I’m not calling taunt stupid. I’m saying it’s required in some fights (see the reference to bear boss above). I’m saying, you should not have to use taunt to prevent a wipe in normal circumstances.

    The fights where taunt is NEEDED, you usually know who is being taunted off. You also have mocking blow, heroic throw (threat wipes) and challenging shout (no adds) . Any tank who lets the party get wiped without dropping those gems isn’t using all their tools.

    And whether you think we’re supposed to take damage or not, parry gib has been a real threat for at least as long as I’ve been tanking. While it’s not as big a deal with the removal of crushing blow, it still exists. It’s just not that prevalent in this level of content. A poorly timed parry on enraged bosses can still drop the tank and possibly wipe the party.

    Ridlyblade reply on January 14, 2009 2:41 pm:

    In an ideal positioning setup (i.e. MT/OT(s) stands alone in front of the boss, melee dpsers standing max melee behind the boss). The only boss to date I’ve encountered that will “parry gib” in that situation was Morogrim Tidewalker.

    Parry gibing was usually saved for when you get 3-4 retarded melee dps (even after the advent of Expertise, they stop at dodge cap) who decide to not be fully behind the boss or straight up on top of the tank and their attacks getting parried are what’s really causing the boss to gib the tank.

    As of right now, lvl 80 end game, parry gibbing shouldn’t really be too much of a concern unless you’re really under gearing the content you’re tanking.

24. raskol Says:
    January 11th, 2009 at 8:59 am

    N00bish question:
    So taunt, thunderclap and shouts(maybe more abilities?) Are affected by hit only?

    [Reply]

    Myzery reply on January 12, 2009 6:23 pm:

    Taunt, Thunderclap, and Shouts are not affected by Expertise.

    [Reply]

25. Khara Says:
    January 13th, 2009 at 4:03 pm

    Vene, can you please explain to me, how you came up with the parry expertise cap being 16%? I have several parses of full raid night having 56 expertise = 14% without a single parry. There is also a thread on EJ prooving that (http://elitistjerks.com/f81/t39944-tanking_cycle_priorities/p5/). Thank you.

    [Reply]

26. Matt Says:
    January 14th, 2009 at 12:42 am

    There is a glyph for warriors to increase chance of landing taunt by 8% if you’re that worried about taunt resists.

    [Reply]

27. Marvinofzion Says:
    January 14th, 2009 at 12:36 pm

    Great post but /agree with Pryscilla. First off, a bosses chance to parry has always been 14.5% with 6.5% chance to dodge. That makes the Experise hard cap to be 57 Expertise.

    I also have parses where I was at hit cap (Patchwerk) and I still have 7% Heroic Strike misses and 3% melee misses. This leads me to believe that the Miss chance for bosses is still 9%. However, this is still in debate so I will sit on the sidelines with 8% as hit cap til it is proven otherwise.

    One thing to point out as to why Expertise is better than hit is that reduction to boss avoidance it does 2 stats instead of 1. This can then be viewed or understood as 1% Hit = 1% Reduction to Overall Boss Avoidance…..as 1% Expertise (1 Expertise Skill) = 2% Reduction to Overall Boss Avoidance.

    However, once you hit the soft cap (Dodge Expertise Cap) at 6.5%, Expertise becomes less valuable imo. Hit then plays a role to direct increase in TPS through reduction in Misses which = ALL Threat Abilities of a Tank including spell abilities and especially Taunt. With every boss and their mother in this stupidly easy content being tauntable, taunt can be a lifesaver. This includes trash mob tanking.

    Me personally:

    Expertise of 20 (Warrior with Vitality 3/3) is priority.

    Then Hit cap. (One thing to keep in mind is normal raid makeup…we now have a Draenei offtank so 230 hit cap. However, after looking over my parses of that Patchwerk fight i’m thinking of just going 296 (oldschool cap).

    Then I will build a threat set that will hit 57 Expertise for Parry Reduction cap but not use it for main tanking as Threat isn’t everything on a tank…we still need to be able to ….”tank” or take hits so taking into consideration Effective Health, Stam/Armor, and Avoidance.

    My main tank set I’ve decided to keep the soft avoidance goal of 20% on avoidance stats and then balance it with stacking stam while keeping my soft expertise cap and hit cap. I’ve always been a fan of balancing stats as each has its uses.

    Anyways, thats my 2 cents. I would suggest to change your info on expertise parry cap to 57 as bosses only have a 14.5% parry cap. If im proven wrong then please show me but this is on several posts including EJ as Khara has shown.

    [Reply]

28. Marvinofzion Says:
    January 14th, 2009 at 12:38 pm

    I just wanted to correct myself where I said 1% Expertise (4 Expertise Skill and not 1). The concept or point is still the same.

    [Reply]

29. Ruffis Says:
    January 15th, 2009 at 4:55 pm

    My question is regarding red sockets. I am not gemming for progression anymore but in turn want to gem for a little more on the threat side. I understand perhaps the best gem to use is the +expertise and +stam purple gem. But how bout a +str and +stam gem? Which will scale better considering now that +2str=+1bv. Ive heard that str is important now to tanks, but to what extent? I do appreciate your reply and input, but some numbers would be nice as well =) tyvm

    [Reply]

30. Mandragoran Says:
    February 6th, 2009 at 7:37 am

    Little off topic, but can anyone tell me if the points you invest in the talent to increase block chance by 5% matter in relation to the 540 defense requirement vs 83 elites to be uncrittable?

    So if you take 2/5 in the tier 1 block talent is 540 defense still what you need vs 83 elite to avoid crits? I can’t remember ever reading that your block chance affects the 540 def, but it seems like it would.

    [Reply]

    Veneretio reply on February 6, 2009 8:43 am:

    LOL, a little of topic, eh? Anyway, no worries…

    The block talent does not help with the Defensive minimum of 540 Defense. You’ll need at least 540 Defense regardless if you have 0, 1, 2 or 5 points in Shield Specialization.

    [Reply]

31. ching Says:
    February 22nd, 2009 at 4:21 pm

    are the encounters in your opinion, taunt sensitive, nowadays? does +hit still affect taunts and would a miss cause a wipe?

    [Reply]

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