Loading ...It’s time to Step down as Main Tank
Yes, I’m talking to you, Mr. “I just Main Tanked all of TBC”.
No, I’m not suggesting that Warriors are somehow inferior to the other 3. I’m suggesting that you take turns Main Tanking. Give the other Warrior a chance to Main Tank. Give the Druid, Paladin and Death Knight a chance too. You may not thank me later, but your guild will.
But, what if they just stick with the other guy?
You can’t worry about that and frankly, if they do… you didn’t really deserve the job in the first place. That being said, they aren’t going to stick with him. They’re just going to believe in you more and more to the point, they’ll actually progress when you aren’t around. Sometimes in order to be the best leader you can be, you have to follow.
Way back in 2007, I talked about how to stay a sharp tank (still worth reading btw) and one thing I mention was to PvP a little, but not a lot. It’s because it gives you a unique and ultimately, different perspective on the game. It’s for this very same reason, I suggest you Offtank a little, but not a lot. Same goes for DPSing as well. You simply can’t be the best Main Tank possible without fully grasping all aspects of what your character is capable of.
And I know, it’s hard…
But, it’s right and you will thank me too because it’s going to wear you down eventually too. Think of it as taking shifts in Hockey. Even the best players don’t play the whole game. They go hard for a shift then they take a break. They focus then they sit out.
And the competition doesn’t hurt either…
The beauty of being the Main Tank is you’ve got nothing to prove, but sometimes truly being the Main Tank is proving that you have nothing to prove. Proving that yup, you can use the other guy, but he’s just not as good as me and not having to say it, but being able to show it. Being able to mesmerize people. And you don’t have to throw that in your fellow tank’s faces or in your guild’s face, but it’ll be there and it’ll be clear.
You’re the Main Tank. Take a seat.
January 13th, 2009 at 7:02 pm
you have apoint here m8, i have been mt since mc up to bt, maybe time to play alittle pvp
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January 13th, 2009 at 7:36 pm
And let’s not forget, prot is the warrior PVP spec at the moment so you won’t even have to respec.
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January 13th, 2009 at 8:25 pm
It is tough to do it. I complained. But the guild is better for it. More importantly….
I can laugh when someone else makes a mistake that I would have made =)
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January 13th, 2009 at 8:58 pm
Not to mention this will do wonders for you off-tanks’ morale, which will really help lessen the OT turnover you get from them just being bored while you tank every boss every time.
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January 13th, 2009 at 9:52 pm
True yet again, however I have noticed that prot paladins can usually do more threat on most pulls, especially on weak mobs that don’t give you rage. So do it, but be careful if you have skilled players around you lol.
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January 13th, 2009 at 9:59 pm
My problem is not a lack of competent OT’s or other possible MT’s… its that there are so damn MANY Tanks in my guild. Just this evening I was thinking of talking among the other Officers about asking some of the Tanks to collect DPS gear and be prepared to switch if needed, or possibly stay DPS and switch to Tanking… if needed.
Tonight we ran Obsidian Sanctum, 2 groups of 10 for Non-Heroic at first, merging for 25-man afterward. In our 10-man Groups, we don’t even need an OT anymore… any DPS in Plate will suffice for OT in portals and adds during the main battle.
When we merged and had to find 5 more people in guild to round out our 25, we ended up with 5 Tanks, and now only needed 2. Its just what was available atm in the guild and we didn’t wanna leave anyone out. Some of the Tanks got DPS gear but didn’t respec, so they’d be at least a lil more helpful.
In any case… too many tanks… too many mouths to feed. With a Free-Rolls system like ours, and that many tanks in a group… I could see an item drop 6 times before I chance on winning it. As of late, my luck has been good… but it can’t always be so.
A nice article would be about how EVERYONE can tank now, and most don’t even have to do it WELL in order to get invites. I would say now is the time to put a LOT of effort into making sure people know YOU are “the guy” (or “the girl” =P ), because people are willing to settle for the bare minimum… since it can get the job done now, albeit not as smoothly. It used to take a lot of skill just to tank… now it just takes skill to tank well, and ANYONE with fingers to press buttons… can tank reasonably well enough to complete any raid content.
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Cleaved reply on January 13, 2009 10:08 pm:
On your post about “9 Ways to Stay a Sharp Tank”… I can cite #7 and #8 as reasons anyone can tank now and why those of us that have tanked a long while are less appreciated for our skills.
#7.. Multi-Target Tanking is easy now, for ALL tanking classes. Start the fight, press 1-3 buttons and congrats, you now have more aggro than all heals and most DPS, focus on Skull a bit, then toss a Devastate toward a mob if you feel the need, or just spam Thunderclap.
#8… Cooldowns are shorter now, and inexperienced tanks are punished less as a result for using them at the “wrong time.” Vigilance placed on the right person (like an OT) will make your Taunt perpetually off its Cooldown, so you can chain-taunt and from a distance of 20 yds (THIRTY YARDS with the upcoming Patch!)
Sorry to reply to my own post, but I re-read that older article and realized some of those very issues are why skill has become a dinosaur in the tanking world lately.
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admin reply on January 14, 2009 12:40 am:
I would say judging the entire game based on the entry level raid content would be a poor decision. There’s still Ulduar to come and the content after that and content after that and at some point, Arthus to worry about too.
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Cleaved reply on January 14, 2009 1:23 am:
Indeed, there is more content to come… but rumblings from WoWinsider and the forums tend to think Blizzard has overshot the goal in efforts to make end-game more accessible to those that make up the bulk of their paying customers. Its sound business practice, but I wish they had not dumbed-down the mechanics of Tanking as much as they have. Yes, it still takes skill to be good/great, but you can get a lot further being mediocre than was previously possible. The same reasoning goes for Healers and DPS as of late. Hopefully new content will present a greater challenge, but unless they re-tool the mechanics of the class.. they’d be hard pressed to present us with something that challenges our current array of abilities. Managing a battle and doing things with precision in new content helps, but it doesn’t change how the dynamics of tanking have been warped in favor of the less-skilled on the whole.
Meh… maybe I just miss the spastic, hectic and fervent fun that was Tanking before 3.0 patch. I just feel like its harder to set yourself apart from others, when the bar you raise never rises very far.
Kavtor reply on January 14, 2009 9:11 am:
I don’t think they overshot at all. I think they did a pretty nice job. There’s a ton more content now than was realistically available at the start of TBC. And sure, most of it is entry level. But that’s where it should be to start the expansion.
But nothing made me more excited about Ulduar than Sartharian +3 drakes. When I -really- started to understand how everything in Sath works together, it’s a brilliant encounter. Very casual players can walk in and collect loot. And it’s a pretty complex, interesting encounter with all three drakes up.
January 13th, 2009 at 11:51 pm
Sure any monkey can generate aggro across multiple targets and hold them ok, but it still takes real finesse to be an amazing tank.
It’s still apparent who really knows how to tank and who doesn’t.
Also we know have a secondary role of maximizing our own dps in a raid. It’s a new responsibility we can’t shy away from now. Personally I now have a new goal to try and hit 3200 dps on patchwerk as the MT.
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Cleaved reply on January 14, 2009 12:34 am:
These are things most non-tanks don’t care about or fail to realize. I know it is still possible to be an “Amazing” tank versus “mediocre”… I said as much. However, people are willing to settle on mediocre rather than seek out amazing… a smooth ride is preferred over a bumpy ride, but most just want to reach the destination.
Obviously, not everyone is in the same situations across all realms… I’m sure some have an overage of healers or a lack of Tanks. I’m fairly certain some guilds put up with what quality they can get, and others refuse to go with anything BUT quality. In that same chord its likely that some are just as indifferent to things they don’t understand or care to.
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January 14th, 2009 at 2:07 am
In our guild we don’t really have a Main Tank -position. In our ten-mans I often just end up flipping a coin with the other tank to see who’s on adds and who’s on the boss(if the fight doesn’t require different tanking). My fellow MT is usually a paladin. Thus I know perfectly well why I am the add tank on Grobbulus until 3.0.8 comes.
Point is, we check the fight’s requirements for tanking, and if we don’t have those - we just flip a coin since we’re both pretty equally geared
Offtanking is often more boring, true. But it’s certainly refreshing at times.
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January 14th, 2009 at 2:55 am
I know this point well, I may even let them do it more!
But it is interesting not MT’ing we had to do it for noth (first boss in naxx plauge quarter) as the OT wasn’t dealing with the add’s very well, we switched after one wipe and aced it with no problems, I may wish to mention this was our first Naxx run too.
Was a massive ego boost for myself I must admit.
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January 14th, 2009 at 6:36 am
We don’t generalize X amount of tanks in our guild as “Main Tank” and Y amount as “Off Tank”. I however know who is MT-material and thus it really isn’t a problem.
In general content like Naxx and Malygos we simply do a /roll n (n=number of tanks) and see who gets to do what for the given event. We try to spread the load out to make it more fun / enjoyable for everyone AND so everyone get’s to improve their skills in different areas of the game.
In progress content (3 drake Sartharion) we’ve been more conservative in rotations due to the simple facts it’s a hard fight and learning “your roll” is essential there. Now that we finally mastered that fight, with quite an odd group tank-wise I might add, I’m all for rotations there as well. Well in theory we did have a rotation the kill night but that was more of a “forced” rotation (I used to be on the minibosses but ended up tanking Sartharion him self).
My suggestion to all is to be open about rotations and give everyone a shot. Having your tanks be familiar with add tanking Sartharion to MT Malygos WILL benefit you when Ulduar comes, I can almost guarantee that.
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January 14th, 2009 at 7:04 am
First Malygos kill - I tanked. Second, another warrior tanked. Third I imagine our paladin tank will do.
And in Naxx, we typically don’t know who’s tanking what till we’re on top of the boss. Our tank lead, if he doesn’t feel the need to get someone specific experience with a boss, will usually /roll to pick someone.
Rotating tanks is good.
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January 14th, 2009 at 9:19 am
It’s a good thing to have depth in your group, and have everyone involved. It’s also a good thing to experience every part of the encounter, rather than just one roll.
I think the ‘MT’ concept is pretty outdated. We’ve got four, and we’ll randomly trade between OT / MT / tank DPS, and usually have a different guy spec DPS every week. Once dual specs hit, it’ll be even more important to be able to play multiple rolls.
As for the bar between tank skill being changed, I think that’s a good thing too. DPS has never been a pass / fail position. ( for the level most players play at ) Now, tanking is the same way. More people can enjoy playing that roll. But the difference between a tank who’s just getting by, and someone who’s reliable, or those super star tanks is still pretty apparent.
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January 14th, 2009 at 9:21 am
What a great, refreshing article. Very thought provoking and gives a different perspective to the game and a true meaning to the word ‘progression’.
I was just in the middle of writing a post on the guild website, talking about how to adopt a plan for raiding, how we should take socialistic approach to it all (all meaning raid leading, organising, guild planning and managing) and get more people involved outside the main circle.
I think your point can be adopted in many senses then just tanking, and others should maybe bare that ‘other guy’ in mind a little more often. Surprising how a dose of ‘responsibility’ can bring the best out in people!
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January 15th, 2009 at 1:44 am
As I wrote on another forum somewhere: I’ve been generating threat since 2005. If you think you’re good enough to ‘take my spot’, have at it! I’m happy to let other competent tanks do the job. I don’t really have anything left to prove, but I’m happy to step up and do the job if someone else isn’t chomping at the bit to do it.
People can talk about ‘faceroll’ all they want, but, there are still some truly *bad* tanks out there. Decent players know the difference between a ‘good/great’ tank and ‘just good enough’ tank.
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January 15th, 2009 at 3:16 am
I’m sure I read somewhere that the best gift to give a tank is to actually let them tank. Great post and it can really help the tank teams morale, as someone previously said.
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January 15th, 2009 at 7:03 am
I agree with you. I am an off tank for Yakra and they have already been doing this quite a bit. I was honored when they asked me to Main Tank Thaddius for the first time. It is very refreshing to be able to see all aspect of each encounter as well, and to be honest, sometimes the off tank duties are more “fun” than the main tank duties for some encounters. I am glad our guild has an awesome balance of kick _ss tanks that can pick up any role, and even prouder that we have leaders who allow the off tanks to main tank sometimes.
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January 15th, 2009 at 7:26 am
I try to go a step further.
We’ve got a tankteam of 4, DK, Pala, Druid and me, the warrior. We’re all geared and skilled enough to tank everything in game at the moment. But…..while the DK and Pala are both good tanks, they’re nothing more then that at the moment.
The druid and me are the ones who are dragging the raid through Naxxramas. And when for instance the DK tanks I still have to say when to go.
I’ve told him, that if he wants to be main tanking I want to see more initative but while he’s tanking fine, he’s not a leadertype. Hardly speaks on vent, doesn’t command on the right moments.
He’s a follower.
Main tanking is more then just the mechanics, the pressing the right buttons at the right time and positioning the boss at the right place.
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January 15th, 2009 at 10:30 am
I MT-ed most of my guild’s TBC raids (not much to talk about though…*cough), and I find myself with a few more better-geared tanks in the guild. It’s great having them around because I find myself less pressured to tank for the guild in raids now. ^_^
I agree with what you’re saying. Tanking is now the second-most “giving” role in WoW, the first being healers. There should be no room for hogging positions, doing so will prove detrimental to your guild’s progression and your own development to become a better tank.
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January 15th, 2009 at 11:24 am
i’m surprised at the size of some MT-egos. we don’t have a MT in my 10 man group, we just switch off whenever. besides the fact that the OT’s job is sometimes more challenging in certain encounters, we both enjoy the different roles. do it this way, and if you are really better, you will still get asked to MT the challenges your guild is facing.
the other day, someone asked in guild chat if there was anyone not saved that could come OT a naxx run. one of the warriors in the guild immediately answered, “i’m not ANYONE’S OT”. there’s a guy i don’t plan to run with anytime soon.
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January 15th, 2009 at 12:53 pm
I did this in Naxx the other day. Worked better than I had hoped, unfortunately. I was sort of looking for an excuse to bring my shaman along on a raid or two.
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January 15th, 2009 at 2:05 pm
Total agreement, Vene. Spread the responsibility.
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January 15th, 2009 at 2:50 pm
Sorry but I have to disagree. I have worked too hard to keep my MT job to give it up. I hit 80 first. I got geared first. I’ve done more heroics. I was in all the first raids that wiped endlessly on bosses that now are easy. I was in our first 10 man to get through the last boss in Naxx and then went to work on 4 hours sleep. And when the OT had to go during that run I solo tanked Kel’Thuzad and his adds. I’m the tank that’s now paying the repair bills to learn the Malygos fight. I’ll step aside at a time of my choosing.
However, I see the value of having some “bench strength”. I am the one that farmed hours and hours to make sure all our tanks had every piece of crafted gear that would help them. I help them pay for enchants. I help them with flasks. I help them with gems. Partially from my efforts we have 4 OTs that are geared well enough to MT pretty much anything in Naxx. They get to sharpend their MT skills on some of 10 mans. And there are a few fights in 25 mans where we are better off with me as an OT. And there are some times where there’s not much difference between MT and OT, like Patchwerk, 4 Horsemen and Gothik the Harvester. But when we are doing 25 mans and its a fight that there’s one MT, that’s going to be me.
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Cleaved reply on January 15, 2009 3:15 pm:
Amen, Tankette.
I agree completely with the first part, and feel you on the 2nd part of your post. I was also the first Tank to hit 80, first to gear myself by pugging, running content, putting in the work on professions… etc.
I don’t disagree completely with Vene, like you said “bench strength” is a good thing to have. However, I disagree with giving up the reigns or letting people that put in less effort take the reigns. We have good OT’s in our guild, but when it comes to certain fights, I’m not willing to relinquish that responsibility. Someone up above mentioned the fact that many of these OT’s don’t really pay attention, don’t talk on vent and in general… don’t take a leadership role when its needed. You can argue that they need to be given a chance to take leadership, but if they are running heroics and such, they should have plenty of opportunity. If they were eager to take a leadership role a simple lack of responsibility wouldn’t prevent them from ASKING for more, because leaders take it or ask for it.
If you have a geared person under you and wanna give them a chance to MT from time to time, that’s cool… just don’t “step down.” If you have earned the MT “title” in your guild, its yours for a reason. Don’t be an @ss about it, or make a big deal bout being “the guy/girl” that does that job… just DO your job. OT’s are OT’s for a reason… just because the content is easier doesn’t mean you should give up your earned role. If anything, showing up, knowing what to do and being good at it… are the complete package that makes you MT instead of OT.
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Veneretio reply on January 15, 2009 11:05 pm:
It’s true you’ve earned it. I earned it too and I reaped the benefits of it for an entire expansion too…
Except when I was not there.
So, you gotta ask yourself… all the work you are putting it, who are you doing it for? Your guild or Yourself?
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Tankette reply on January 16, 2009 8:24 am:
For both. And I haven’t missed a raid night since sometime back in May .
When we have heroic Naxx cleared and farm it a couple times I will probably be less adamant on being MT. I may actually skip a raid every now and then.
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Veneretio reply on January 16, 2009 12:49 pm:
There’s no both in this equation. You’re either always MT and in it for yourself or you occasionally let your OTs try MT on progression not just farming and then you’re in it for the guild.
Every day you don’t give your OTs the chance to become comfortable with the primary role, you’re simply hurting your whole guild’s progression when they’re called upon to do a fight with you. After all, you don’t really think that Ulduar is going to be a series of 1 tank fights with picking up a few adds, do you?
I’ve been where you are. I know it’s hard, but ultimately, I’m not suggesting never MTing again. I’m simply suggesting to give up the reins occasionally. (on progression too) Frankly, it sounds like you had a very hard journey to get the spot and you’re afraid of losing it. To which I say as I did in the post, if you were really meant to be the Main Tank, you aren’t going to lose it even after they’ve seen someone else in the role.
Tankette reply on January 16, 2009 2:52 pm:
Can’t seem to reply to your last post, Vene, so it is up here.
The OTs can be MTs in the 10 mans. It’s not like they are being kept in a dark closet. And then there are a lot of fights where there just isn’t a MT anyway, like Gothik the Harvester for example. On Grobbulus I let one of the Pally OTs do the MT role since they have a hard time grabbing the adds with a taunt without also grabbing the boss. My single target works much better so I take the OT role in that fight. So I don’t see that the answers are mutually exclusive. I can still be the MT and train the OTs to be ready to take over.
There are many situations in life where you can do the right thing for yourself and the right things for others at the same time.
marklar reply on January 16, 2009 6:52 pm:
you might be missing the main point vene was trying to make - you can’t truly train the OT for a MT role unless you let them MT some progression content. and i completely agree; letting them take over once you’re on farm mode is not even remotely the same.
if anything, it will make the guild more aware of just how good a MT you are. i often get whispers during these trials “so, when are you going to have a go at it?”
Cleaved reply on January 18, 2009 12:03 am:
I would make the same argument that I did before… those that are or would be MT material, will take such initiative on their own and ask for such responsibility. If they don’t, then forcing them into that role won’t do any good. If you let someone MT some of the time, its not really going to do much unless they are prepared to take on such responsibility on a regular basis. We have multiple MT capable tanks in our guild, but I’ve earned my spot and step to the front when its time to tank a Boss. If I’m not there (rare that happens) or if they want to tank, they are more than welcome. I think more or less the connotation you put on “stepping down” was a little off. Prepare your OT’s but do not give up your spot to them for a few weeks or even a night. Let them tank a boss here and there, IF they want to… most of them honestly don’t. Like I said, if they are chomping at the bit, you’ll know.
Marklar, you can train an OT for being an MT without letting them MT an entire raid or even a single boss. They just need to pay attention, watch some vids online and ask questions. A lot of that goes back to what I said about taking initiative. We have good depth in our guild at the Tanking position, but it doesn’t mean I need to let Johnny-OT take my spot for a few nights
Besides, 10-man Naxx is more than enough along with the regular Heroics they should be running, to prepare them for MT’ing if they want. Hell, they should be the MT of 10-man Naxx “Group 2″ if they want MT experience. Don’t put them on the bleeding edge of progression though.
marklar reply on January 18, 2009 8:41 pm:
“you can train an OT for being an MT without letting them MT … even a single boss”
i guess i just disagree with this. you can help someone prepare, sure; but it’s not close to the same thing, imo.
it’s hard as hell to do it, but i believe stepping aside from time to time is a good thing. standing in front of a boss for the first kill after umpteen wipes; how can you convey that feeling to your OT?
Meatgazer reply on January 20, 2009 8:19 am:
Did you ever think the reason the OT doesn’t ask to MT might be due to the fact they think it will cause guild drama? Sure, some OTs don’t want to take initiative, but I think you’d find more OTs willing to give it an honest shot than not.
Saying they can MT a 10-man doesn’t mean anything unless you’re going to OT it. Not all of your tanks can MT 10 man content, because you still need an OT.
And while there is leadership in the tanking position, I think there’s a lot of blending between the role of main tank and raid leader, and a line needs to be drawn. You can still be raid leader without being MT.
The biggest thing with giving them a shot is to give them some incentive to stay with you. It gives them a sense of personal ownership in the guild and therefore increases the odds they’ll stay in the guild while maintaining OT for the most part. Otherwise good tanks will leave the guild to MT somewhere else, and you’ll be left with those mediocre tanks as your OT.
jarrod reply on March 5, 2009 2:24 pm:
I played dps for the longest time and learn the fight threw dps and now i am tanking in wrath of lich king with a feral durid. I do main tank and i will ot tank alot in naxx and others. I like to main tank because it put me in control of the fight and teach my raid the fights threw my experiance tanking threw kara and different raids. I will also step down as main tank to allow the ot tank to prove that he worth tanking in the dugeon and if i am gone form the raid i can feel confident that he can pick up were i left off. It go that sometime i can’t main tank a boss because the boss is not my type of boss for a durid to tank. So i will step down and play ot but i have the confindents in the other tank in my guild that will step up take it over and he will confidents in me to help him out as ot to learn from my mistakes and for me to step back and learn form him
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January 15th, 2009 at 3:06 pm
I haven’t even had a chance to tank Naxx yet… I’m envious…
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Chet reply on January 16, 2009 8:39 am:
I’m new to tanking, so I can feel your pain on this one. My tank is an alt, but so far my main in Wrath, so he came into wrath with barely entry level kara gear (I rushed to tank kara once before the expansion), so he doesn’t have much gear or money, so it’s been slow gearing for raids. That’s also in part because I’m taking my time trying to get more comfortable tanking before having 9 other people counting on me to keep them alive. I hope to get in there in the next couple of weeks though. I’m going to be one of those tanks he’s talking about in the blog that you should step aside for lol
This blog has been a huge influence on the way I tank, and I definitely appreciate it
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Hao reply on January 16, 2009 12:53 pm:
In my opinion, the MT is the leader announced or not so you are right to get comfortable tanking. Nobody will follow a nervous wreck. Our guild is very disorganized (my new one since my old one broke up) so its very difficult trying to get a schedule put together. I have tanked pugs for Sartharion-10 and those in general have gone smooth. There was one really bad group last night, but other than that, its a very easy raid instance. The boss fights are very trivial and easy granted your dps isn’t brain dead. If you want to get your start at tanking, i highly recommend doing a guild run of that raid instance and getting your feet wet.
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January 15th, 2009 at 3:31 pm
I should have probably mentioned that my guild has 4 bosses left to down in heroic Naxx. Once we have done a few full clears and it starts to feel routine I’ll happily let someone else tank. Heck, I might even take a night off from raiding.
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shooch reply on January 16, 2009 1:12 pm:
/agree you earned your spot. let them mt when it’s not progression, like you swap gear for progression and survival.
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shooch reply on January 16, 2009 1:21 pm:
Edit: progression/threat
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Cleaved reply on January 18, 2009 12:09 am:
We have 2 groups doing 10-man Naxx (about to start a 3rd) and are moving towards completion of 25-man and hopefully putting it on farm status. We have also gotten into 10-man Eye of Eternity a lil bit.
We have way more than 6 Tanks in the guild that want to tank things or go as OT’s to these 10-man Runs, and the 25’s too. Most of them get to go based on what work they have put in on their gear. If they have not made an effort to match that of the other OT’s or even MT’s by running Heroics or getting Rep/Crafted gear… then they find themselves waiting more than playing.
I’m with Tankette, I’ll step aside if we have stuff on farm, because when its progression on the line, I am only helping the guild buy staying at the forefront. I won’t “step down” though if the person beneath me is ill-prepared or lacking in gear for a lack of effort on their own part. Raids are not where you go to gear an OT, they need to be running Heroics just like the rest of us did.
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January 15th, 2009 at 7:16 pm
In TBC it took us forever to get through Karazhan because we didn’t have anyone else willing to tank or off-tank. I’m glad we now have 4 tanking classes and I’m excited about have other tanks. I’ll happily step aside whenever necessary to keep the new guild tanks happy. If they’re happy, we do more raids. And that makes me happy
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January 16th, 2009 at 3:47 am
Good post, I agree. And I see it as part of my ‘job’ as MT to help train the other tanks so that our raid group can grab any 2-3 and be able to go do whichever raid they want, even when I’m not there.
It’s surprising how happy it can make people when you say ‘ok, you’re MT in this next fight, any questions before we go?’ Also I like to see each encounter from as many different perspectives as possible, it gives me a better overview.
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January 16th, 2009 at 3:32 pm
I run and MT a small guild. I put the guild together late in TBC and starting raiding late in TBC. I went guildless for awhile to figure out if I wanted to start one myself. In that time I always filled OT roles for pug’s whenever I could. Its how I learned most of the content. OT’ing gave me tanking experience, exposure to fights, but more importantly it gave me the freedom to look around and study fights and see what other people were doing. It let me see how another MT would perform and how I could improve on what he was doing. It let me listen to RL’s and their efficiencies or inefficiencies (in a raid there is a strict plan for the MT, usually not the OT). This has paid huge dividends as MT and RL of my guild. It has given me the mindset to speak to every class, it lets me see positioning and it lets me improve on strategy’s. We modified plenty of those bosskiller.com strats to suite or own class composition and skill. If you have an opportunity to OT you should take it. You might find that your OT was watching pretty intently and he is about to teach you something. The flip side too is, you may just re-teach your OT what it means to be an effective OT.
As GM/RL/MT I think that rotating the role helps with.
1) Member retention
2) Learning process
3) situational awareness
4) Freedom to review the fight from a distance
For some of the posters replying, I think it goes without saying that your OT has to be qualified. I dont think the original post meant let the guy that stands in void zones, forgets he has an aoe taunt, and thinks the firewall is pretty to turn your 3 hour night into a 6 hour night. That’s just another facet of your job as MT, to know when your OT is ready. When he is, you better get ready to learn.
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January 18th, 2009 at 7:51 am
Well this is a really good blog about a really good subject. As for my guild we have 4 tanks 1 new and one still 78-80 Blues. As it has been we have switch when we have all been online. like everybody waits 1 turn of every 3 runs. Witch to me is just a fair game cause we all know what we are doing and really should get the practice cause if the MT dont show up .. What then? The full clear night changes into a 2 wing clear night
Conserning the “easy to tank thing” shouldnt really affect the good players. If you really put you out there as a good MT and a Good Leader (witch is very important to) you should be on alot of friends list and be known as a good tank.
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January 19th, 2009 at 1:05 pm
We had 2 10man raids which merged into a 25man raid. 4 tanks. After two weeks the druid could be talked into cat. And now two weeks later I’m giving up and leaving the raid because 3 tanks is still too many. I don’t fancy having to fight for every trash mob because everyone seems to think they absolutely have to AoE tank as many mobs as they can possibly grab. Nowadays a tank has to be grateful if he’s allowed to tank a boss and OMG after 3 hours of being put to sleep, if you even make one small mistake there are two other tanks who will happily take your position. Not that I make many mistakes. It’s just that attitudes have changed.
Competition is fine. But lately the job has very little to offer, even for a decent tank with good skills. I was a lot happier as 2nd tank in BC. I was rarely allowed to tank a boss even though I was every bit as good as our MT. But at least I had my very own trash mob which I was allowed to tank. As it is right now, I’d better make damn sure I charge into a trash group first and taunt mobs off our pally. Greed instead of cooperation.
I’m sure having more tanks available is good for the game, but my reason for switching to a tank class was filling out a role that was sorely needed in BC. Now it looks like I’ll switch back to my heal priest. Ah well, I really liked being a tank.
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Cleaved reply on January 19, 2009 11:56 pm:
I feel your pain, even as an MT. Why? Because I’m sick of pulling mobs in Heroics or Raids and having everyone just AOE them down. Whatever happened to mobs dangerous enough to warrant focus-fire? Now if a pat wanders into this AOE maelstrom you’ll have a hard time picking them all up unless you AOE Taunt.
Its not a big deal, really, but it just makes all the content really easy with some decently geared AOE users. Not to mention, as you said… bored OT’s or no need for an OT save for specific situations. This is why we’ve split some of our better Tanks into leading Raids then pair them with an OT that is a DK or Drood. That way, they at least have someone that can do considerable damage when they have absolutely nothing to do. Paladin and Warrior OT’s can put up some decent numbers, but nothing compared to a DK/Drood OT in all honesty.
I can see this as a reason to let an OT step into the MT role occasionally, but not on Progression content. Let them MT stuff you have on farm.
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Tankette reply on January 23, 2009 7:00 am:
We have typically run with 4 tanks and 6 healers all the way back to Gruuls. Sometimes we’ll go with 3 tanks and 7 healers if a certain fight calls for it, like Patchwerk. We almost never go below 3 tanks unless we just can’t find a 3rd tank.
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Rajax reply on January 24, 2009 1:26 am:
Taking three or four tanks to Naxx won’t hurt your raid too much, although two tanks plus one cat/dk will do just fine. I’m more concerned about what it does to the tanks. Four are just two too many.
I can stand back and go get something from the fridge while they’re pulling two trash groups together. Nobody will even notice that I was gone. During the Kel’Thuzad intro fight, our pally usually pulls all the big guys first because he has full mana and I suppose a few nice ranged abilities that do more aggro than my heroic throw. Usually starting with zero rage, all I can do is taunt mobs off of him.
Sure, I could tell him to leave every second mob to me. Or I could try to keep my rage bar full and even charge his mob and try to out aggro him… which he will probably notice and try to get aggro back or taunt or simply pull mobs earlier, possibly wiping the raid by pulling the whole group. I don’t think he’s even aware that he’s taking all the mobs for himself.
Or I could just be satisfied with applying all debuffs on his mob so he eats less damage. Which takes quite some time since I’m not getting hit and therefore have little rage.
Maybe I should just be a little greedier like our pally and make sure I have fun even if it’s at the cost of my fellow tanks or even if I cause a wipe occasionally by doing so. My point is: I should not have to think about such things.
I’m useless. Or I can put myself before the others and make them useless. Maybe the raid leader doesn’t know it. But I know it.
Nuff said. I don’t know how it works out for other tanks. All I know is that I’m no longer raiding 25man and that I’ll wait for Ulduar instead and hope things get better.
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January 19th, 2009 at 1:51 pm
Speaking of stepping down, I am thinking of stepping down as tank altogether. I can’t get groups unless I have 30k health or more unbuffed. Heroics or raids. I keep getting booted from heroic pugs because my stats “suck” (I have 26k health unbuffed) and I’m sick of it. I have all the crafted epics I can get other than the tanking ring and am at 549 def (seal of the Pantheon dropped last night :)) but still, people want full t7 gear or the MT from their guild to tank. If I put a group together, there are no healers to be found anywhere which brings me to the next part.
I’ll be leveling a priest and will become a healer (again). The server I am on (Dragonmaw) and our guild are thin on healers and very heavy on dps and tanks. That way, I’ll be able to get into raids, heroics and actually experience more of the game. Regardless of if I decide to keep on tanking or not, it has been a blast reading and posting on this blog. I do enjoy tanking, but its not enjoyable waiting weeks to get one heroic run.
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Veneretio reply on January 19, 2009 2:33 pm:
Yes, it’s definitely been a long journey my friend. I hope you find that tanking spark again, but if you can’t it’s been great having you around and I certainly hope you’ll stop in from time to time and say hi
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Hao reply on January 20, 2009 10:33 am:
Thx vene, I will definitely be reading this post as I still like tanking and still enjoy reading and posting comments on this blog. But with all the other tanks around, I don’t think i’ll get my chance to tank anything. I think my best chance at the moment, to see end-game content is as a healer and not as a tank. The spark is still there, but nobody wants to add fuel to the spark.
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January 19th, 2009 at 8:15 pm
After tanking and really enjoying it for a long time, I am finally going dps. There are too many other tanks in guild, and I am just tired. The actual tanking is the easy part, the hard part is dealing with the other tanks and trying to lead while tanking. I knew it was time when I started hating the offtanks… I’m just out of patience for being taunted off and it causing raid wipes, sarcastic comments, them not watching their threat, them wanting to always fight for aggro, their dull questions after I just explained things… I have lost the urge to beat the crap out of other tanks, maybe thats it… I know I can, but I kinda want to down bosses more than be the biggest baddest evilest tank now. Wish me luck at being a great Fury!
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Rajax reply on January 24, 2009 1:31 am:
Man, I hear you.
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January 20th, 2009 at 1:43 am
Warrior Tanks have other stats for tanking now, but everyone still looking at highest HP (TBC-minded).
I rather have 27k HP/23%dodge/18%parry/18%block/150 expertise/200 hitrating then 36k HP / 20%dodge /17% parry / 18% block / 10 expertise /100 hitrating.
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January 20th, 2009 at 4:32 am
Honestly, I would let my OT MT all day provided he is geared and knows the content. Currently Warriors are still the worst threat generation on trash, even on bosses when MTing we seem to have the shaft. Granted our threat is improved still not on par with Pallies and DKs.
Tanking in WotLK has been massively dumbed down. With the removal of crushings and the need to block every swing any half intelligent tank can pull the current content.
Those of us that have been doing this awhile have nothing to prove and likely have their little flocks of DPS and healers that rally around you come raid time simply because they like your style. So in retrospect, why wouldn’t you let that OT show what he can do? Not like we weren’t out to prove something when we first started.
It does burn to see these classes coming up to par with the vanilla tank class but we got titans grip and likely some nice offspecc gear to try out anyway. Let the kiddies play for a bit.
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January 21st, 2009 at 5:45 pm
my guild presents an interesting concept. We have a DK tank, a paladin tank and a druid tank that aren’t that active. I am the warrior tank and the main tank. I Mt every single fight. There is good reason for this.
We have tried having me off tank some fights, it just doesn’t work. The other tanks in the guild have absolutely no clue how to itemize and refuse to listen to the numerous pieces of advice that i have given them and also refuse to research their class to learn it.
People who are like me, a tank who knows how to gear properly and for a balanced survivability, is stuck MTing everything as a result…im sure there are other tanks caught in this situation
p.s. my new char name is Graveslinger….feel free to armory
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January 23rd, 2009 at 1:24 pm
We have a glut of tanks in our guild, and every single one is a Warrior tank. I dont think we have a Prot Pally, Tanking DK, or Freal Druid anywhere in the mix. Not that we dont have those classes. We have Boomkins, Holy Palys, Ret Pallys, and DPS DKS. Just no tanking versions.
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Hao reply on January 24, 2009 12:55 pm:
I think as people flocked to dks as wrath was released and as tanking got much easier as compared to vanilla and tbc, tanking and dps are heavily impacted classes. The class that really got hurt (in terms of numbers) by this expansion was the healers. It is hard finding healers for anything let along GOOD ones. A lot of the people playing healing classes in the better guilds in our server usually spec healing only for their raiding runs or only run with guildies in the heroics. if they pug, they run as dps.
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February 2nd, 2009 at 9:12 am
We cleared heroic Naxx last week and have just Sapph and KT left tonight to have our 2nd clear. And from here on we will be rotating MT’s. Part of that is because all the tanks are so well geared. Part is to make us a stronger guild. And part is because I’m pretty burned out (more from the RL side of things than WoW).
We started working on 10 man Malygos over the weekend. After a couple hours we were getting to phase 3. We had to stop because people had to go. I wasn’t on when they continued. Our 4th ranked tank was on and it only took him 4 attempts to be up to speed. My point being I think I have done a good job of pushing the other tanks in the guild. I could disappear and our guild won’t be gimped, which means I have done my job well.
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February 5th, 2009 at 11:14 am
I would have to say the post hits the nail on the head. We have all been there as main tank where your one of only active tanks and you get burnt out. It’s good to step back and relax for a bit to enjoy the game.
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February 10th, 2009 at 8:45 am
I only wish Taunt was useful in PvP, like Distract does for Rogues causing your victim to do a 180; causing a slight momentary halt in the direction the victim was running.
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Veneretio reply on February 10, 2009 10:49 am:
It is, you can taunt pets which considering how much damage some of them do and the fact that if you do this, it’ll force them to break you out of Hunter traps or sheeps… it is very useful for helping yourself and teammates.
That being said… you won’t find a lot of PvP discussion here nor sympathy. This is tanking site.
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ErikRedbeard reply on March 14, 2009 7:25 pm:
That totally depends on how the hunter controlls his pet, for example of the pet is forced by the hunter to attack *** then a taunt will not work on it. If it is acting on it’s own then a taunt works, the better hunters will not let this happen tho.
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February 13th, 2009 at 2:48 am
I implement this kinda ideal constantly in my raid groups. I call for pallies to pull most trash mobs, and i pick a few outta the group so i can a build a bit od rage and push some dps. With the new SS dmg modfier, a massive block value set will let you pick them outta a group easily, and push d@%n fair WarrTank dps.
I let DK tanks tank high spell bosses even KT.
I even let Bear tanks change into lions and dps……
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MadTanker reply on February 13, 2009 2:49 am:
Ok, why is ^ that clickable lmao?
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March 4th, 2009 at 5:41 pm
After having MT’d in Vanilla WoW, and getting a text message while I’m driving home from a long evening at work, wondering when I would be on because the OT of the guild couldn’t tank Onyxia, I could not agree more with this. When TBC hit, I made sure to swap up with the other tanks of our team, but I wouldn’t force them into it either. I’d ask in our super secret tanking chat, if anyone else wanted to take point on the boss at hand. This way they weren’t forced into learning the encounter, and could study it more if they had to. In the end it worked out for the best because when my life became super busy, the guild didn’t suffer because of it.
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March 5th, 2009 at 6:19 pm
I remember the time in 1.x when I was the new guy, and dispite the OLD guy(s) being complete garbage, they had been there, or had more gear, or the guild(s) were accustomed to them or they just didn’t want to risk it because even though they knew I was better, I was untested, or they didn’t want to listen to the OLD guy bitch and cry for the next 20 years because he got replaced.
I am constantly more than happy to let anyone and everyone have a hand at it. While it does make me laugh when they fail, I generally find it preferable to see them succeed, and are able to go back to their main toon, or main spec with a greater appreciation for what I have to put up with.
I really doubt I could ever be permanently replaced, but what the hell man, if someone IS better, and will STICK with it, I have NO problem with the guild winning just that much easier.
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March 7th, 2009 at 4:48 pm
And if you REALLY wanna get your tank well-rounded, make them play a healer for a while. Your holy/resto friends will thank you.
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March 15th, 2009 at 9:19 am
This article has a point. I’ve found myself sitting out of MTing more and more as I go through wotlk. I’ve never claimed to be the greatest MT in my guild but one thing I do know is tactics which is why I lead raids.
I’m the impatient puller of the tanks that prevents the raid from slacking.
I know my OTs inside out. Which druid has 40k stamina, which is best at kiting, which can take most damage and I assign them accordingly. Sometimes a warrior ain’t good enough to MT the harder hitting bosses. Roles have changed in the game and the quicker people come to terms with that the better.
I know that some of my fellow warriors have felt a bit left out in the tanking world at the moment but the way I see it there’s no point in having 4 different tanking classes and then have them all mirror images of each other. It’s the same difficulty you have with healers and dpsers.
Some do burst damage/heals, some stack their DoTs/HoTs. Why have 10 classes doing 3 jobs if there isn’t going to be some diversity in it all.
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March 15th, 2009 at 10:32 pm
I really agree with rotating the tanks.. Due to the fact that if a guild only has that one “main tank” that does all the bosses.. then what happens when that “main tank” is not on and all the other tanks have never main tanked a boss?
Also, it also takes away the favoritism aspect of the raid party members. What you don’t want is people saying stuff like “Well I’m not running it because Jackcrap the main tank is not running tonight.” That lowers the morale of other tanks and can cause hate and discontent among guild members.
So all in all.. Main Tanks of all guilds… please… take care of your people and your people will take care of you. If you hog the Main Tank position and don’t give your other tanks a chance at the spotlight, then consider yourself a Blue Falcon. I pride myself at the fact that I’ve taught many junior tanks to not only become main tanks of raids but are also now raid leaders. That’s what makes a leader, knowing when to take charge and when to stand down and pass the torch, and I guarantee you’ll be respected for it. well that’s my two cents, thank you for your time.
-DiscoFOOT
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June 6th, 2009 at 2:25 am
Warriors are still awesome. I main tank for my guild like i always have. You just gotta put the effort the time into it. In order to get the gear, the right mods, understanding ulduar fights, having different gear for different fights, etc.
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