Sometimes, 20% > 30%
One of the most interesting aspects of customizing one’s Warrior these days is Major Glyph selection. Glyph of Blocking has established itself as the strongest of all of them with Glyph of Revenge close behind. What makes Major Glyph selection so interesting though is that the 3rd Major Glyph is very open.
The Usual Suspects
Glyph of Heroic Strike, Glyph of Devastate and Glyph of Sunder Armor have appeared to be the most popular 3rd Major Glyph choices thus far, but I suspect that Glyph of Cleaving has gained a certain following after it was improved as well.
Loading …The Title Glyph
As many of you have certainly guessed by now, the title is talking about Glyph of Last Stand. Not a terribly popular choice as one might suspect from a Glyph that nerfs the potency of one of our most important abilities. However, sometimes frequency trumps ferocity. When would that be?
Malygos.
As many of you have found out and are finding out, Malygos, represents one of the most challenging pieces of content for us at this time. If you’ve just started working on him, I can imagine that your healers have had a rude awakening as have you yourself in how quickly he’s capable of killing a tank. And, that’s where Glyph of Last Stand kicks in.
After Malygos’ Vortex is one of the most stressful times on the healers as they’re trying to quickly get their barings while you position the dragon. Glyph of Last Stand allows you to help. By having it as your 3rd Major Glyph, you’ll be able to use it after the 1st and 3rd Vortexes. Thus, allowing you to execute the following sequence of events:
- After Vortex 1: Last Stand + Shield Block
- After Vortex 2: Shield Wall + Shield Block
- After Vortex 3: Last Stand + Shield Block
Using this strategy, you’ll give your healers the most time possible following a Vortex to position themselves and get the heals flowing consistently on you again.
But, what if a Spark hits Malygos?
There’s nothing saying you have to stick unwaveringly to the plan. If a Spark hits Malygos, you should use either Last Stand or Shield Wall. (likely only 1 of the 2 will be up at the time given following the above) As always, be sure to let the healers know you’ve done this. That being said, if a Spark is frequently hitting Malygos, you simply aren’t going to be able to get out of Phase 1 quick enough to win the fight.
I shouldn’t have to use Last Stand though
That’s probably one of the dumbest things I read. Thankfully, it’s on a rather infrequent basis. Even worse still, however, I see some that don’t even feel the need to spec into Last Stand. Frankly, if you think this way and you scoff at the Malygos strategy listed above, you’re doing a disservice to yourself and to your guild.
If you die and you have not used ALL of your cooldowns, it is your fault.
Now, I’m not saying one can always know when the appropriate time to use Last Stand and Shield Wall is, but not knowing does not absolve you. It’s still your fault if you didn’t use them. I’m sure many of you have died to Malygos’ Breath after a Spark hit him or you’ve died after a Vortex and you’ve blamed it on the DPSers or the Healers, but ultimately, you could have helped. You could have done something and you didn’t.
…and in the case of preparing for the Malygos fight, you could even have used Glyph of Last Stand. So, Last Stand being on cooldown doesn’t relinquish you of guilt either.
Spec for the fight, Gear for the fight, Glyph for the fight.
Or, make excuses… blame others… learn nothing…
…and Die on the fight.
February 14th, 2009 at 8:06 pm
I live 100% by my Last Stand Glyph, and I don’t expect to replace it anytime soon.
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February 14th, 2009 at 9:44 pm
Very interesting, I’ll visit the Auction House glyph section…
Off topic, or at least on a tangent: The mage’s ability Slow Fall can now be cast on other players. Does this have a place in such a fight?
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Psy reply on February 15, 2009 11:38 am:
No. Fall damage is bad, but taking an extra few seconds to land and get oriented when an angry dragon is breathing down your neck is worse.
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PsyWulf reply on February 16, 2009 4:50 am:
Right.10 (25) people landing and taking a shartload of extra dmg unmitigated because they don’t have slowfall on is a bad idea when the dragon lands basically the same time as you do with it active? You should be fired
Tried and tested to work very well at least to ease the pressure on healers,even if you just cast it on the people with the lowest HP due to vortex dmg will avoid substantial deaths
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February 15th, 2009 at 12:43 am
I use devastate and sunder glyphs with glyph of blocking because althought saving 12 rage or whatever will let me use HS that much more, in boss fights and stuff where I do need to keep top aggro over OT’s and such I always find enough rage to HS, I can see how glyph of revenge is a super good idea but sunder means for AoE tanking (as a warrior) gets that little bit better so if one day I am not MT I don’t need to make a major change which suits as my raiding guild is casual. It’s more like strengthening your weakness but I would not personally go so far as to use glyph of cleave without a good reason.
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MadTanker reply on February 20, 2009 4:49 am:
When duel specs comes out, if i understand correctly, there will be 2 glyph sets available, that being the case, using GO- Dev, Sunder, and Cleave would be very nice for a warrior aoe tank spec and build. Like a trash set.
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Caligarista reply on February 28, 2009 9:17 am:
I use the Blocking-Devastate-Sunder triumvirate as well. The Devastate and Sunder glyphs play off each other. I can get 5 sunders in 3 clicks, and it puts 3 sunders on my next target, so I only have to click once more. Works nice in soloing, and comes in handy in instances because you can sunder 2 enemies at once.
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February 15th, 2009 at 1:40 am
Dual specs cannot come fast enough. I will definitely have the Glyph of Last Stand in my “Survival” spec for fights like Malygos and Sartharion+3. People laugh when I tell them I plan to have two different Prot specs, but it’ll be a big difference between the two, that’s for sure.
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Veneretio reply on February 15, 2009 4:13 am:
Agreed, this is a great route to take and you’ll certainly be seeing my 2 recommended specs once the time comes.
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Domichi reply on February 15, 2009 8:20 am:
I think I will be going with two prot specs as well. One for max threat and one for max survivability.
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Kadomi reply on February 16, 2009 12:52 am:
I will be going with two prot specs with two different glyph sets as well. Can’t wait!
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Sarris reply on February 16, 2009 8:16 pm:
Same here. I have already started dropping hints about having 2 prot specs.
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February 15th, 2009 at 8:46 am
Trashing around in 5-mans and the occasional VoA pug, I don’t see a reason to use the Last stand glyph. Still I can see the point for endgame raiders, with longer (and probably more complicated) bossfights than I’m used to.
I got suprised by how many that choose HS glyph. Because I agree with Melville that Glyph of Sunder is far more useful, for establishing aoe threat quicker. Might change with upgrades in gear though.
Interesting idea with two prot spec. Very much looking forward to your recommended dual spec Veneritio!
*$
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Veneretio reply on February 15, 2009 9:41 am:
AOE threat isn’t a priority in the majority of raid situations, so the HS Glyph is most popular b/c it allows you to maximize your DPS output.
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Tarsus reply on February 16, 2009 1:50 pm:
As an accessory to this point, imo if you’re in a group with a variety of tanks, you’re still not going to be beating out the Prot Pally on AoE Threat, so you might as well make your stand with what you’re better at.
It also has good synergy with the Revenge glyph, which can be nice while not in a raid environment (aka f***ing Sons dailies).
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MadTanker reply on February 20, 2009 5:02 am:
I match pally threat in aoe tanking, if i make the pull, and the pally goes all out, i will hold all but those they single target attack a few times.
For trash i run a massivly high block set with a good bit of crit. I tc, sw. demo, and cleave during it all, and i got um. Even with pally OT in 7.5 my trash hold against them, letting them dps hard w/o pulling away all those little “rage generators” that let you do all this.
Several pally tanks in my guild and I have developed a contest of sorts outta pulling 25 man naxx trash. with geared groups, it can be quite fast and fun from a tank POV. And if your warrior and skills are good, it’s quite gratifying to hold mobs off a pally “aoe” tank.
Blizzard definatly gave warr’s a whole new aoe tanking game, but they did give pallies a better single target game than they used to have.
February 15th, 2009 at 10:24 am
Glyph of Cleaving is pretty ideal for Malygos Phase 2 by contrast, so if you DON’T have survivability issues in P1 (or, if you have the DPS to be working on a 6 min kill and are only getting 1 or at most 2 vortices), the Last Stand Glyph becomes far less useful for the fight, where P2 is all about snap aggro on 4 slippery targets.
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February 15th, 2009 at 1:30 pm
By this time most guilds are chain-pulling and aoe’ing in Naxx 25, as a warrior i find Glyph of Cleaving to greatly help with gaining and holding aoe threat. spamming cleave and using TC and SW whenever their off cd is how i do it, tab targeting and using revenge and SS on targets which i have lower threat on
i’d suggest Glyph of Cleaving if you are in a guild that chain pulls multiple groups in raids
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Steele reply on February 16, 2009 6:51 am:
Totally agree, greetings to the military wing :> Ill rather go with the 30% increase, regenerating about 50-60% of my base hp when i throw out everything to maximise health before i use that 30% hp-recover skill which i dont remember the name of :> Not only good when the healers are slacking or lagging, but even better for PvP.
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February 15th, 2009 at 6:33 pm
So is the Glyph of Taunt completely unrequired? I have approximately 5% hit (a bit over or under depending whether I’m in more dpsing or tanking oriented gear) and I use the glyph of blocking, taunt and last stand.
We have all content on farm except Sarth + 2 or more drakes and 10 man Sarth + drakes.
I chose the glyph of Taunt to 100% guarantee that I will pick up whatever Drake I need to regardless of if I’m frontloading threat with mocking blow/challenging shout or if I call bloodlust too early on Tenebron or whatever happens while we burn the drakes fast.
I know there’s an 8% hit cap, and the glyph sets me to around 13%. I’m not gearing for farm content (Maly, Naxx) so I don’t care if the glyph of revenge is more useful in there, just on Sarth + drakes (and immortal/undying which we’re also attempting… badly).
So in my situation, what would you pick Vene? Is the rage saving worth the 3% Taunt resist?
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Veneretio reply on February 15, 2009 6:57 pm:
An interesting question, I can see the benefits of the Last Stand glyph on this encounter as well. I can understand your reasoning behind the Taunt glyph, but with Drakes either being picked up in melee range where Shield Slam (among other things) will quickly hit them or at range via Heroic Throw… I think the Glyph of Taunt may just be overkill.
Glyph of Revenge is going to result in a lot of Heroic Strikes that you otherwise wouldn’t have gotten and while certainly, you aren’t going to have threat issues on the drakes… every little bit of damage counts.
It’s great that you’re looking for creative solutions, but in this case, I think you’re better off just sticking to the conventional, Glyph of Revenge over Glyph of Taunt.
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Ablimoth reply on February 15, 2009 7:39 pm:
interesting note on the threat. I hadn’t considered that.
Our last 2 drake kill was very messy, so I think I will take a glyph of revenge and see if the dps can start earlier and harder on the drakes and just maybe we can shave a few seconds off each drake.
we normally hit it up on Thursday evenings (Australian time) so I’ll let you know how we go.
only commentary may be slow dps on tenebron or shadron and one of our add tanks has to pick up a drake, the 8 seconds longer he’ll be tanking it for if taunt is resisted will hurt. I might swap glove enchants for precision not expertise…
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Furiat/Vegelus reply on February 16, 2009 1:47 am:
You still have mocking blow then. And you might Vigilance him (if possible ofc) so taunt will be refreshed a lot quicker.
Ablimoth reply on February 22, 2009 9:13 pm:
The Lag boss has beaten us all week. Massive random DC’s on 4 horsemen means we’re stuck there (like 14 random people DC about 10 secs into the fight). Enough people have enough lag that they can’t get shields up on Malygos to stop the eye focus from killing them. We haven’t evven tried Sarth + adds yet (but I’m seeing void deaths everywhere).
I think this week we’re just going to push for the emblems and easy loot, tonight is our last raiding night for the week
Wukki reply on February 17, 2009 10:03 am:
Don’t you have a Shadow Priest or a Boomkin in the Raid? Don’t need the glyph because with one of those two classes your specials will be capped on that target.
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Ablimoth reply on February 17, 2009 3:38 pm:
Is Taunt subject to +spell hit?
I was not aware of that, have you seen some testing on EJ or something or should I test myself?
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February 16th, 2009 at 1:48 am
My Glyphs are Blocking Revenge and Devistate.
I earlier used Heroic Stike but when i realized that i didnt use Devistate as often as in the past i swiched. Now i don´t have any Problems keeping the Debuff up and doing max Aggro.
Glyph of Last Stance is a good choise if you need more survivability. But once you behind it, i won´t use it.
@Ablimoth: When we did sath + drakes i put Vigilance on our Sath tank. You loose the aggro boost of one of your dd´s but your MT gets less dmg and every time he is hit your Taunt Cooldown resets. So you can Taunt the whole fight
Maybe it helps
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Ablimoth reply on February 16, 2009 3:49 pm:
yeah, that hit me last night too, 3% less damage would help a lot!
Thanks to Furiat too for his comments.
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February 16th, 2009 at 4:40 am
Glyph of revenge with connected HS via macro
/Cast Revenge
/Cast !Heroic Strike
Will swing HS without need to spam it and watch for proc. (wont work in 1/10 cases where weapon swing comes in time as revenge comes off CD) where you need to manually use HS
/Cast Shield Block
/Cast Shield Slam
Will give you most benefit of 200% SBV increase via talented Shield Block, and plus Glyph of Blocking gives you very nice mitigation every 40 sec for 10sec. However - you need to use normal Shield Block of Shield Slam for occasions like 1-2 sec b4 web wrap on Maexna.
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FoxOfWar reply on February 16, 2009 11:40 pm:
…except that you cannot block when she web wraps, thus making Shield Block pretty useless to use at the web wrap time - much better to use it instantly after.
I don’t really feel a need to have SS and SB on same macro, but maybe that’s because I’m a BC-era tank, I am used to hitting SB on every cooldown unless I know I have to save it to use within following 40 seconds(Patchwerk 5%, Maexxna 30% etc.).
I use the Glyph of Revenge macro, but I also have HS on a separate button. Because I will be using HS more often than Revenge when main tanking(Revenge cooldown 5s, Broken Promise swing time 2.5s). I am pretty used to HS spam these days.
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February 16th, 2009 at 4:55 am
My majors are Blocking, Revenge, Cleave
Cleave is invaluable in Heroics and versus trash. One thing I never understood is how come a druid’s Swipe hit 3 targets, but a warrior’s Cleave only hit 2. Now, this isn’t an issue.
I’d take Cleave over Sunder every time because it hits 3 targets at once, deals threat AND damage (unlike Sunder), and is crit boosted via Incite.
Glyph of Last Stand…is situational at best, and I’ll only take that up (along with Improved Spell Reflect, more than likely) with dual specs. We’re working on Malygos at the moment but the encounter is doable without this glyph (our issue seems to be slow dps in Phase 1, not healing)
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Furiat/Vegelus reply on February 17, 2009 3:22 am:
Sunder Glyph works with Devastate too.
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February 16th, 2009 at 5:09 am
When did this site stop becoming Tanking “Tips” and become you do one way or you are wrong. I cleared the whole of the Black Temple and upto Muru without keybinds and have cleared all of the current content without GoLS & yet by your recent articles I am a FAIL tank, well goodbye I think ill just stick to the articles on tankspot from now on
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Velcro reply on February 16, 2009 6:55 am:
I think Vene’s point was that you are also responsible to use all your cool downs to keep yourself alive. Not that if you don’t use the glyph you fail. In the end, these are just discussions on what other people are doing to expose them for other’s considerations. How many comments were posted saying “Oh, I never thought to put heroic strike on my mouse wheel?” People sharing their opinion, whether you agree with them or not, still helps the community think through another way to tackle a problem.
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Arold reply on February 16, 2009 7:07 am:
Fail tanks don’t ever Shield Wall or Last Stand. Double fail tanks don’t spec into last stand at all. If you die with one of both of those on cooldown, you made a mistake (it happens). I can’t imagine anyone disagrees on these points.
The rest of the article is a tanking tip; it’s one strategy for Malygos. To use this strat, you need to do everything in the article, hence the tone. The strategy itself isn’t mandatory, it’s just a suggestion.
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Veneretio reply on February 16, 2009 9:53 am:
You nailed it.
As to Tankzor, I go through phases where I try different tones in my articles. Perhaps this one came off as more aggressive than it needed to be. My goal is for people to think about progression fights and try to customize their character to gain the biggest advantage. This post was really just another reminder of that.
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tPaste reply on February 16, 2009 12:38 pm:
I don’t think it’s as simple as that. Take sarth 3d for example. We’ve downed him the last two weeks with me as main tank (as an aside - if you have a capable Bear or DK, do you and your group a favor and let them MT this encounter). For this fight I have specific times scheduled for me to use my LS and SW. Prior to that it’s up to my healers to keep me up. Period. If I blow LS or SW early to “help out” I’m guaranteed to die later.
Likewise, we’re currently working on the 6-minute maly achievement. We’re basically using the tankspot strat and taking 2 tanks. In phase 1 I usually MT, then in phase 2, the other tank picks up the Kill target and I pick up the other 3. I could do what Vene suggests, but usually I like to save my Last Stand (and if things go badly SW) for the start of phase two when I’m outside the bubble trying to round up 3 lords. It’s also incredibly healing intensive and I want to take some pressure off the healers then.
It’s simply not fair to say “if this or that isn’t on cooldown when you die you fail”…in fact I think it’s shortsighted.
Personally I think one of the things the Prot Warrior Community hasn’t considered when cooldowns were lowered on LS and SW is the “collateral damage” it would have on encounter design…Devs are going to be able to tune counters where they expect you to have and use a cooldown at some specific points in certain encounters much more so than in past content…I know I don’t care for that approach to encounter design, but I think it’s going to happen.
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Arold reply on February 16, 2009 1:27 pm:
Yeah, but those are exceptions to the rule.
Even calling it a “mistake” is a bit of a generalization. All your healers get distracted at once (they all spill a drink or something), and you go from constantly full to dead in like one second, you’re probably going to make the “mistake” of not popping last stand.
The reason we call it a “mistake” is to get the point across that this is one of those things you can get better at, but only if you recognize the situation and consciously work on improving it. Hell, you could make this mistake 90% of the time and still be a good tank. But GREAT tanks will hit that last stand.
tPaste reply on February 16, 2009 2:04 pm:
“Yeah, but those are exceptions to the rule.”
Why are you convinced that as Blizzard scales up the difficulty on encounters that’s going to continue to be the case.
Today’s exception to the rule can very quickly become tomorrow’s rule.
Veneretio reply on February 16, 2009 4:16 pm:
tPaste, you make some excellent points. Mapping out a fight as to the exact times when certain cooldowns need to be used and sticking to that plan in order to accomplish your objective is very smart especially when tackling a boss under not so ideal circumstances. (ie. Having a Warrior tank Sartharion) And, clearly, I have no issue with this b/c after all… my post is suggesting mapping out cooldown usage too.
Now, it seems, what you’re taking issue with is my suggestion that you’ve failed if you die sticking to your plan. That’s a fair point. My post certainly is sending mixed signals between saying:
1) Map out an encounter
2) If you die with a cooldown up, you screwed up
I think where I strayed is I should have introduced the concepts in the opposite order b/c in reality point #2 is the more basic concept of the two. As a tank, we have to first learn that it’s our responsibility to use these cooldowns reactively to save our own lives (and not just rely on our healers) and then when we’re doing more advanced encounters, learn to use them proactively to get through the ugly spots.
So, you got me, tPaste.
If I can find the time to throw together that Podcast I’ve been promising, I’ll try to re-visit this topic in a more logical order.
Nickolaas reply on February 16, 2009 7:15 am:
This article was made to show this glyph has it’s use in certain situations.
It didnt say you’re made of fail if you dont use it.
About the keybinds..
If you’re not using keybinds you can never work up to your full potential and you’re simply dragging your raid down with you.
If the rest of your guild was good enough to drag you through the content, gratz to them, though it’s not something you should brag about.
Clicking as a tank gets you up to mediocre, at best.
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Steele reply on February 16, 2009 7:47 am:
Ive used a mouse for 20 years.. i use it about 16 hours a day and its been set for max speed since many many years.. please be more carefull with your judgements about what makes a mediocre tank.
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tPaste reply on February 16, 2009 12:49 pm:
I’m with nickolaas. Clickers are being dragged through content.
I use to be a clicker all through leveling and early at 70 (I started playing when BC launched), but I could tell I wasn’t as good as I could be. I switched to keybinds and it was the best choice I ever made.
The problem is in ability usage. It doesn’t matter how fast you are with your mouse you simply CANNOT click 2 things at once. With keybinds you can hit two things at once. With clicking SOMETHING has to suffer.
Whether it’s your Heroic Strike usage, being able to pop things not on global cooldown fast enough (i.e. taunt, shield bash, LS, SW, etc…) while maintaining a rotation something will suffer from only clicking 1 thing at a time. Something will be slower if you only ever click. I guarantee it.
I don’t know how it can be seen any different.
Daigeil reply on February 16, 2009 2:36 pm:
If you’re playing something other than a warrior… Fair enough. I don’t know enough about those classes to say whether clicking is acceptable.
But as a warrior? Please don’t try to tell me you can successfully and reliably click heroic strike and a GCD ability every 1.5 seconds or faster, depending on your weapon. If, for example, on Patchwerk, you’re landing a single melee swing, you’re not doing as well as you could be with keybinds.
Clicking simply isn’t as effective, reliable or accurate, and it limits a warrior tank. I use a Razer Lachesis at max speed+sensitivity, and I still couldn’t be fast enough or precise enough to do what’s required of me, especially when you throw cooldowns into the mix.
Steele reply on February 17, 2009 2:41 am:
i use the regular actionbar-bindings, rather i just use key 1-6 for my core-abilites and have at least two of my fingers on the moving buttons. i dont need no shift and i never hit the wrong button killing myself or wiping the raid because some panic key is near my rotation-keys.. as for the GCD, besides the fact i can very well click two abilities in a GCD, i dont even need to… for example hs is bound to revenge, cleave is bound to TC… usually i click to trigger a thrid ability. i wont argue that maybe i could get some more speed mounting my horse and stuff… but being a mediocre tank because i dont have all my abilites keybound? hold your horses…
Steele reply on February 17, 2009 3:17 am:
Actually what drives me so mad isnt being called a mediocre tank for something as little important as constantly spamming hs. what strikes me much harder is the thougt i would be “dragged through” the content (i had naxx clear before my guild even hit 80).
Veneretio reply on February 17, 2009 8:23 am:
Let’s just let the whole clicker vs keybinder debate die for now. We’ll address it one day here, but it’ll be done in such a way that hopefully the comment section doesn’t turn into a massive riot.
February 16th, 2009 at 6:39 am
Heroic Strike for me, since i use it a fair bit and on occasion run low on rage (at least my TPS output reflects that, as well as occasional RSI)
I find it odd though that there is no mention of enraged regeneration, I cannot comment too much though due to my guild still have trouble with naxx for some reason (we had 6 DPS for naxx the other day for heigan the unclean, all of them died in the first ‘danceing’ wave including a healer and off tank resulting in a 34 min fight with me and a tree) Though what I find easy best for hard situation is to comunicate with the healers to see if they are struggling, seems to work for us when things go right and our DPS dont slack off.
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February 16th, 2009 at 6:42 am
Why is it assumed that our first 2 glyphs are Blocking and Revenge? I voted based on which one I find the most important out of the ones listed, but I never have had a rage starvation issue while tanking. Because of this, I don’t use any glyphs that reduce the cost of rage or give me extra rage. My 3 are Blocking, Cleaving, and Devastate.
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Veneretio reply on February 16, 2009 9:56 am:
Revenge results in a lot of extra Heroic Strikes that you otherwise wouldn’t have had. I won’t deny that some situations your setup will be better especially on 5mans and Trash mobs, but any kind of boss… Revenge trumps your non-Blocking Glyphs.
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Ebs2002 reply on February 16, 2009 12:22 pm:
I think he’s saying that he’s able to HS on just about every CD even without glyph of revenge. I.E., If you can get 100% HS on Patchwerk without Glyph of Revenge. Of course, you could argue that he’s probably not able to do that without Revenge, but then the tone changes.
In his mind, it makes sense :-p
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Daigeil reply on February 16, 2009 2:46 pm:
Sorry, but that just makes no sense to me, Vene. Revenge is the one glyph in your set up that I would say is worthless on Bosses - I can’t think of a single one where I’m not rage flooded. I’m running 10-man content, and I would certainly say my gear is more than sufficient, although I do have a remaining blue due to AK-hate.
I run with Devastate, HS and Blocking, and it works as well as anything else I can find. HS is the one I hesitate on, but I spend alot of time flicking between specs - not changing it saves me a little cash. Devastate allows me to get into my main rotation ASAP, and on fights where the DPS is powered up but I’m not - Maly, for example - it really makes a difference.
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Veneretio reply on February 16, 2009 3:54 pm:
If the Revenge glyph isn’t effective for you on bosses then you’re probably not Heroic Striking enough especially considering in 10-man content the bosses just aren’t hitting as hard as they are in 25-man content and tanks still find Glyph of Revenge effective in 25-man content.
Ablimoth reply on February 16, 2009 3:56 pm:
I agree on most points, it’s one of the reasons I didn’t use it (experimenting now) but Loatheb is particularly bad for me on rage (X, X, X, just sit down damnit) and I notice it on other bosses as well (Archaovon occasionally, Heigan, MT’ing Noth (not the adds), Gothik and even KT (where we have 88 effective rage as we must keep enough for shield bash at all times).
Never is it crippling, nor does the dps feel constrained, but we’re not swimming in rage for every boss.
Meatgazer reply on February 17, 2009 7:13 am:
Glyph of HS and glyph of revenge seem to be a wash. They’re both rage reducing talents. With the CD on revenge, you get about the same return at 10% crit rating (before incite).
The big difference is that the HS is a “win more” glyph, where you get rage in situations where you already have an abundance of rage. In the beginning of a pull where you might only have the rage from charge, revenge is better, since it provides a bonus in low rage situations. It can provide threat during an (un)lucky string of dodges at the beginning of an encounter.
Ultimately, the only required glyph is blocking. The rest end up being a wash between trash, threat, and survivability. That is why we can have lively conversation about the glyph of last stand.
February 16th, 2009 at 7:19 am
I’ve honestly found that the ability to spam more Heroic Strikes without running myself out of rage to be more useful than the extra damage buffer in Malygos, though this probably reflects the high threat/high DPS philosophy in the guild. Because of the sparks, Malygos is probably one of the few fights where there is any risk of loosing agro (especially if you are trying for the Achievement), and the extra rage does help.
Though I would trade it all for a Glyph that lets me use Heroic Throw more often.
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February 16th, 2009 at 9:19 am
I’ve found the Glyph of Heroic Strike to be unnecessary. Their are very few occasions in any of the 25 man encounters that rage becomes an issue once your past the first few moments, and at the begining of most fights, HS is not a priority. Even taking the drakes, which require a quick grab and hold, the HS is not going to impact the fight, and even w/ the breaths, rage isnt an issue. I’m able to spam HS on nearly every auto-swing without having to worry about going out of rage. Kinda seems like a counterproductive glyph currently, although perhaps 3.1 will bring more rage managemet into play. Personally I prefer the Glyph of Devastate. Getting my 5 spot back up there if it drops in 3 GcD’s gives me more room to get back to generating threat. Although once you have your 5 up, it becomes less of an issue in most fights, it still has seemed to benefit me more often. I cant remember ever saying to myself “man, I really need more rage to HS more in any fight that actually makes a difference.” Glyph of Sunder and Cleave may fit well into an aoe 15/5/51 dmg build, but until dual/spec and ulduar, who knows.
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Madness reply on February 16, 2009 11:08 am:
Glyph of Blocking/Revenge/Devastate imo. Minors?
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Tarsus reply on February 16, 2009 1:45 pm:
Minors are Bloodrage/Thunderclap/Charge. Of those, only Thunderclap I regard as essential because of the pathing “dance” that most mobs do around Tauren models. The other two are nice, but I could live without them.
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February 16th, 2009 at 8:47 pm
Just a quick question, Do the Glyph of Sunder Armor and Devastate work together? Could you theoretically be dropping 2 Sunders on 2 mobs at the same time? Add to that the Glyph of Cleave and for AOE tanking you’d be golden. Hell with just the Devastate and Sunder Glyphs you would be ok. Then your free to take Revenge for max HS usage or Blocking for Survivability.
I haven’t been given the opportunity to Tank for any Northrend raids yet, just heroics so I am not sure. IMO though an extra 10% for 10 sec every 40 sec (based off reliable Blocking from Shield Block) seems like something you would only pull out for 25 mans, as max threat means your DPS can go nuts and the bosses will drop fast enough for it to not be an issue.
I am actually still perusing Glyphs ATM so feel free to tell me I am right out of it.
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fustigator reply on February 16, 2009 11:38 pm:
I tried the Sunder Armor + Devastate combo to see how the mechanics work- it puts 2 stacks on your target and 1 stack on a nearby target. I tried it a while, but found I simply don’t use Devastate enough during AOE pulls to warrant glyphing that way. YMMV especially if you have a lot of practice with the sunder+tab method.
The Glyph of Blocking is actually a nice AOE threat boost as well, 10% more Block Value means your Damage Shield hits deal 10% more damage, as well as the survivability boost during Shield Block.
For single-target progression jobs like Sarth + drakes I prefer Blocking, Revenge, and Devastate.(I tank drakes, we have a pally for adds and a DK for Sarth). For farm speed runs of Naxx I use Blocking, Devastate and Cleave to make the trash go by faster and more enjoyably
It sure doesn’t hurt that the price of the glyphs of Revenge and Cleave are sub-1g.
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February 17th, 2009 at 8:47 am
I continually = fail on this site. I use Blocking, Taunt, and Cleave. We are still doing 10 and 25 man Nax, can’t get Sath with 1 drake, and I’ve never seen Malygos. The cleave glyph really helps hold aggro with all the trash in Nax and I got the taunt glyph because I did not want to risk missing a taunt (only 4% hit) on the 4 horsemen. Like tankzor said above. I think you guys forget that not all of us are “professional” raiders. There are a lot of us that just raid a few times a month, we ALWAYS have pugs in our 25 man raids, and some of our tanks beat some of our dps on the damage meters. If we followed a lot of your advice I don’t think it would necessarily help our progression. I have enjoyed reading a lot of Ven’s stuff, it used to be helpful in progression, but looks like it is quickly leaving the “tanking TIPS” area and moving more to an Elitist JERKS sort of format dedicated to theory crafting and uber analysis of only current end game content. I enjoyed it better the old way.
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Veneretio reply on February 17, 2009 10:04 am:
Copying my reply to Tankzor in case you missed it.
“I go through phases where I try different tones in my articles. Perhaps this one came off as more aggressive than it needed to be. My goal is for people to think about progression fights and try to customize their character to gain the biggest advantage. This post was really just another reminder of that.”
I think partly, you guys are being a bit sensitive and also possibly a little unrealistic. I’ve always bounced around the map. Sometimes I do articles on a very basic level (like how to gear as soon as you hit 70 or how to spend badges) to something on a very advanced level (like tackling Heroic Strike usage). The reality is I just don’t have a whole lot of time to post in a week so some months are going to be very “end game raider” and some will be very “I just hit 80″ and some will be somewhere between.
I’ve always really just posted here about my mistakes. The reality is that the majority of these articles represent my own failures or dilemmas and how I got through them. If a post is very adamant about how to do something, it’s basically b/c I experienced doing it wrong and I experienced doing it right and I’ve seen the massive difference.
Truths:
I was a clicker MT (I did Sunwell too though)
I am now a keybinder and I’m better than I ever was
I died on Malygos especially 10 a lot with cooldowns still up
I struggled with Shield decisions
I looked up what enchant to use, constantly
I stepped down from being the exclusive MT
I did a lot of spec Experimentation
I stopped Marking
You’ve been following my journey. I try to address questions and concerns of the community, but generally speaking the best articles I write are those that I experience first hand. Those that I fail at personally and work through. (and the struggles I continue to have and continue to try to work through)
You may not realize it, but I have a lot of trouble taking my own advice some days because doing what’s best is often very hard and takes a big adjustment and forces you to accept that in some way you’re failing or screwing up. I’m failing with you. Know that.
All that said, I’ll try to throw in more tippy stuff in the future. It’s not like I’m some uncontrollable Corporation. I’m just a guy who loves playing Warcraft.
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Tom reply on February 17, 2009 10:42 am:
Ven,
Eloquent and to the point as always. First after rereading my post I want to say I am sorry I came off so negative - I truly regret capitalizing Jerks - I love this site and appreciate your comments and appreciate the time commitment it must take. I understand your “process” better now. The point I was trying to make (poorly) was that you had me “hooked” with your earlier posts. That post on Expertise was one of the most insightful and useful posts I have read on any site. I read EJ and Tankspot (I always love your posts there) but I often find your stuff here much more usable at my level. Less ‘theory” more “application”. The last few posts and discussions just started feeling more like Tankspot and less like the my favorite site - Ven’s Tanking Tips! I understand you “go where the spirit takes you” I just hope it moves closer to 1) What the hell is Armor Pen 2) Can a Prot War PVP? (well anyone besides me I get my butt kicked) 3) Do we EVER need Resistance gear (updated) and 4) Add-Ons every tank should be using (updated) and 5) Dare I even say it - TIPS for Clickers how to click better if you are a dumb@$$ and refuse to change (some of us are OLD and you know what they say about an Old Dog…). Love your stuff and appreciate your time! Another guy who loves playing Warcraft!
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Yarl reply on February 19, 2009 6:18 am:
‘I was a clicker MT’
I’m currently trying to learn key binding and try to force myself to not click any thing. Gotta say it’s not going so well. I’ve noticed a difference right away when the fight is a mobile one. I put out more threat and more DPS when I’m Fury, but when I have to use abilities like shield wall or last stand, thunderclap/demo shout my fingers are very limited on where I can click and keep moving/generate threat. I have huge hands so most keyboards just aren’t built for me and a mouse with only 1 wheel. Definitely buying a new mouse and keyboard. Currently I have the up mouse scroll set to Rev, scroll down is set to Heroic Strike and I press the button to use shield block + SS macro. My left hand fingers sits on a,s,e or d,f thumbs on space bar:
a = devastate
s = left strafe
e = move forward
d = move back
f = right strafe
g = charge
c = cleave
r = heroic throw
t = conc blow
w = bloodrage
Devastate is easy to spam, moving over to hit ‘g’ to charge is weird and every button except my movement buttons and ‘a’ are hard to hit fluidly. Going to change the movement binds back to wasd so using shift or cap locks as a modifier is easier. Still will have trouble hitting keys and moving at the same time though.
So… yes, I preform better clicking atm, but I want to step up my game. I know a week of using key binds isn’t near enough time to learn and get use to them, but with my guild starting naxx25 and also learning Malygos…
Any suggestions/tips would be appreciated. I can’t be the only one struggling with this transition.
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tPaste reply on February 19, 2009 9:58 am:
http://catalog.belkin.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Product_Id=393402
The n52te is my suggestion. I’d recommend it to anyone that wants to try and make the transition to keybinding. I know I couldn’t keybind without it. My fingers just can’t find the right key in space very well and the n52te allows me to have several keybinds in a very localized area also this allows me to do all movement with my left thumb. Honestly I’ve gotten good enough with it that I wish it had a couple more buttons, but for me it’s way better than working the keyboard especially on high mobility fights.
February 17th, 2009 at 10:18 am
I use the 2 standards(Blocking & Revenge), currently my third is HS. I just recently went back to it after using Devastate for a while. In the last few months I’ve gone from only tanking heroics to primarily tanking 25mans, so I feel like HS is less useful for me, especially if I’m MTing. Another tank in my guild swears by his Glyph of Taunt also, but I’m not sure I’m sold on using it as a 3rd major glyph. Although, I can a test I have had my taunt fail on the 4 horsemen before.
I’ve been a bit curious about the Glyph of Cleaving. I know it’s pretty much useless for boss fights, but for trash and the occasional 5-man it seems like the way to go. Might have to give it a whirl soon.
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February 17th, 2009 at 10:21 am
Malygos is a bad example. It’s not really a hard encounter if you recognize that the breath’s can be mitigated w/ frost resistance. Sarth 3d is the only real case when the Glyph of Last stand is a reasonable choice. Mostly because it’s the longest encounter thus far and the raid wide damage makes improving your own chance of living as often as possible a really good idea. Even then though, Last stand is really diminished while the 20% less health debuff is applied from the drake.
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Veneretio reply on February 17, 2009 10:28 am:
Excellent tip. How much of the breath can one expect to mitigate wearing all 3 Frost pieces?
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Ablimoth reply on February 17, 2009 3:42 pm:
Is it Frost or Arcane damage? I hadn’t considered my FR gear because the cast is called ‘Arcane Breath’ so I’ve never even looked at it.
I’d love the fact I spent so much on FR gear if it’s useable in more than one fight!
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Tarsus reply on February 18, 2009 7:30 am:
According to WoWhead the damage is Arcane despite being categorized as a “Frost School” spell. 10 Man and 25 man respectively:
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=56272
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=60072
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February 18th, 2009 at 12:13 am
I usually agree with what’s posted here, but today, I have to disagree strongly. The last stand glyph is awful for current content, including Malygos and Sartharion + 3 drakes.
Guardian Spirit is something almost all our priests have, and is a far superior way to save a tank after Vortex than Last Stand. In 25-man, while we were progressing Malygos 25, we usually had at least two holy priests in raid, which was more than enough to save my half-T6 behind after any vortex.
And Sarth3D? Well, we use warrior tank for the whelps/elementals and for the three drakes, a DK for Sartharion. The whelp/elemental tank hardly ever gets below 50%, only when we screw up in 10-man and get two waves of whelps, at which point we just wipe as that’s faster. The drake tank takes a bit of spike damage when the third dragon lands and the second is still alive, that’s when I pop shield wall and enraged regeneration so the healers can keep the DPSers up, so they can nuke the drake down ASAP.
If I had to use Last Stand twice in either the Malygos or S3D fights, then we probably did something horribly wrong and it’s just easier to wipe and go again than prolong the inevitable.
For that reason, I find Last Stand glyph completely useless for current content.
I’d rather take imp. HS for more rage (and I do get rage starved tanking the drakes on S3D, and sometimes on Malygos too - and with the mental DPS some of our people pull out, threat on Malygos is a far more serious issue than survival. We usually wipe - if we wipe - due to overaggro, not tank death) or devastate for quick sunders.
If Ulduar brings encounters where using last stand twice does not automatically mean a situation where wipe + go again would be more advisable, I’d consider the glyph, but for current content, it’s just awful.
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February 18th, 2009 at 12:00 pm
After reading this I ran my Tauren butt down to my AH and bought the Glyph of Last Stand for like, 6g. I slapped it on and immediately tried it and feel in love with it. Macro to use it with http://www.wowhead.com/?item=39292 (Repelling Charge, increases your maximum health by 3025 for 15 secs.) and you can gain upwards of 10-11K hp. I use this macro almost every pull and I think it great to at least try out if you haven’t already. Great advice, thanks!
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February 18th, 2009 at 2:03 pm
I guess I’m an oddball here, but I now run with:
Glyph of Blocking
Glyph of Devastate
Glyph of Cleave
When content is on farm, I think it makes more sense to glyph for trash. However, I picked devastate over my prior glyph of sunder because it has both a single-target utility and, when tab-targeting, also facilitates rapid sundering of multiple-targets.
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February 18th, 2009 at 3:04 pm
When learning the fight, if Malygos eats a spark, you should just have a priest Guardian Spirit you when the breath is casting. Just like Sarth. It is better than using your personal cooldowns for it.
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February 19th, 2009 at 7:49 am
Someone asked about spell resistance the formula for average spell resistance is Resist / (Level*5 + Resist) for low level mobs and roughly Resist / (515 + Resist) for raid bosses.
These are average values as resistances jump in increments of 10% to get a garunteed 30% resist you going to need about 346FR.
Theres a good article about it on EJ http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t44675-resistance_mechanics_wotlk/
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February 19th, 2009 at 7:39 pm
What is the advantage of Glyph of Revenge really?
An early start into a HS rotation on some fights? I just plain do not see the advantage of having a free HS in most fights where rage is not an issue after you get hit once. I do see it as a nice DPS improvement for fights where you are having some real low rage situations, but right now… 90% of these fights just do not exist. The low rage moments are few and far between or are on trash or in 5mans.
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Veneretio reply on February 20, 2009 12:16 am:
If you can’t rage starve yourself without the Glyph of Revenge, you’re just not Heroic Striking enough. There are plenty of times when the free Heroic Strike pays off and with no decent DPS alternatives as a tank, it’s the clear choice.
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Rak reply on February 20, 2009 2:19 am:
You’ll probably change your mind about always having infinite rage when your gear improves. If that isn’t the case, as Vene said, your rotation must be wrong.
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February 20th, 2009 at 3:27 pm
Not to derail from the subject but I am ponding on getting rid of glyph of revenge and rocking sunder and devastate glyphs…
Reasoning is after you get initial agro on mob(s) rage doesnt seem to be much of an issue and you should still be able to get off HS nonstop….
I have HS macroed to REvenge and Devastate atm.
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athelia reply on February 20, 2009 3:29 pm:
sorry *pondering
Also I didnt read the above posts…
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April 7th, 2009 at 10:07 am
Hello all,
First off, great site! Love to read the ideas being tossed around. This is a late addition to the conversation, but want the add that another great use for LS is in combination with Enraged Regeneration. This helps the healers out in two ways, one gives that immediate hp boost and pool base, and two, for my build at least, heals roughly 1k a sec for 10 secs. This additional healing has given the healers that slight time advantage to catch up on their healing rotations if needed.
With improved defensive stance, I am constantly enraged so ER is available w/o the need for bloodrage. If needed however you could add bloodrage into that loop to pop ER.
Cheers
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May 5th, 2009 at 11:53 pm
Just an update here, As of 3.1 Glyph of last stand now no longer reduces the amount of bonus health recieved.
It has been changed to reduce last stand cooldown by one minute.
Even more reason to be helping the healers.
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May 21st, 2010 at 12:56 am
shield wall, revenge, blocking here
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