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Podcast #7: Return of the Main Tank [18:08m]:
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March 4th, 2009 at 1:08 am
Well, I’ll give my 2 cents. Keeping in mind, this is before Ulduar so when it’s released my views might change (have been busy with University so haven’t had a chance to do any PTR stuff.)
I really don’t fully agree with the whole 2 Prot specs. I realize that it will give you a slight edge for some fights, but if Ulduar is anything like Naxx, that won’t matter, although they say Ulduar is going to be much harder. As the MT, yes that gives you the edge. But what happens if you get to a fight like Sapph/Maexx when you only need 1 tank. Don’t know about you, but when we do 25 mans, we run with 3 or 4 tanks. Is it gonna be better for me to be prot or fury. For you’re guild, is it going to be better that you’re sitting there putting out 1.5-2k dps, or putting out 5k dps and giving you’re raid rampage (we currently have no fury warrior). I realize you’re probably gonna say “Well, as the MT you should be the one tanking it.” Problem with that is some of our other tanks don’t take the time to get DPS, therefore if they aren’t tanking, they aren’t doing jack. So maybe I won’t be MT’ing that boss, but I’m being a lot more helpful to the raid as a whole.
My other point that kind of builds on that is as the MT, you should have lots of practice as a DPS’er, and should do some PVP (which I know you have stated in a different post). If you are dual spec’d Prot, I doubt you will do very little, if any of those other 2 options. Personally, I would much rather respec once to different prot spec per week, then constantly going back and forth between prot and fury/pvp (I get asked to tank a lot of heroics or 10 mans for guildies, I will save a lot more money if my other spec is fury). DPS’ing gives you a totally different perspective on fights, and I believe that makes you a much better tank, seeing it from the other side of things.
Personally, if I had the money and as a raid we had the time, I would use a different prot spec for every encounter. So even with dual specs, there are gonna be fights you are wishing you had a different spec for. So I think if you want to help your raid to the full potential, giving them 4k more DPS as opposed to 1k more TPS (which for me has been no problem yet, cept maybe for Maly) is going to be a hell of a lot more helpful. I just don’t think you should be as short sighted to say, if you don’t have 2 prot specs, you shouldn’t be the MT. You should be worried about benefiting the raid, and I think a major DPS change between fury and prot is going to be a major difference in a fight, as opposed to a slight change in prot.
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Darraxus reply on March 4, 2009 8:30 am:
I completly agree. I guess it would be ok if one tank gets designated as the “MAIN” tank for every fight in the instance, but a fury build is going to be a much bigger benefit to the raid when only one or maybe two tanks are needed (25 mans).
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Belthamel reply on March 4, 2009 4:56 pm:
PS - 7k DPS on Thaddius as Fury. 2nd only behind our Ret pally. If bosses have enrage timers in Ulduar, which they probably will, I think that will be a big asset. Although Fury is getting nerfed.
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Voltaik reply on March 5, 2009 4:50 pm:
The advantage you gain from using the optimal of two protection specs to MT a given encounter is dwarfed by the advantage you gain from using the optimal of two tanking classes on a given encounter. With the presence of 1-tank fights this implies the optimal course is a roster of tanks (3-4) who are ready to tank or dps with the appropriate spec.
In this way, each tank maximizes his own strengths and lets others tank to cover his weaknesses.
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Veneretio reply on March 5, 2009 4:53 pm:
I think this is a difficult claim to make considering there’s no content currently that supports your argument. Sartharion 3D is really the only fight that you could say currently that 1 tank has a significant advantage and on that fight, there’s a lot of other stuff to tank.
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Voltaik reply on March 6, 2009 3:55 pm:
http://www.tankingtips.com/2009/02/19/it-snuck-up-on-us-were-amazing-add-tanks/
“There’s no content that currently supports your argument” only derives from “there’s no content that challenges us” which is going to change (or had better) as this expansion progresses.
I wholeheartedly agree that being the MT is more about the perceptions of others around you… “who they want to tank the dragon” than it is about anything else. What I take issue with is the idea that you can only have one person in the guild satisfy that condition.
What if, your guild being knowledgeable about tanking mechanics, really wanted you to tank adds on sarth3d, and really wanted your DK friend to tank sarth himself? The paladin who no one has any confidence in anyway gets sidelined to respecs dps on few-tank encounters, and is eventually recruited over when you’ve got the opportunity anyway. What makes the add tank or the sarth tank “main” in this situation? They’re both main, because they both command there respect of their teammates.
Just because some fights only require a single tank, doesn’t mean that we have to push all but one guy away from being perceived as capable.
You cannot show me two prot specs that are more flexible than a pairing of a warrior and a DK, each with a tank and a dps spec, when they choose those specs mindful of the other’s choices. If you could choose the dual-spec choices of each possible tank in your guild, how would you spec them? If the reason why you don’t maximize your power by having a flexible, no-dual-prots-included tanking core is because you don’t have confidence in the other guy, why are you playing with him?
March 4th, 2009 at 1:08 am
^ Apologies for the wall of text :S
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Veneretio reply on March 4, 2009 7:26 am:
Haha, nothing wrong with having a lot to say
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March 4th, 2009 at 3:06 am
When I first heared about dual spec I was thinking about the same thing. Make 2 prot specs. But when I saw all the content WotLK has to offer I decided to go fury as offspec. Everything is just too easy. I tank with Deep Wounds spec and it worked great so far. I respec once a week for Maly get some better defensive talents (reduce CD on SW, get improved demo shout, imp spell reflect etc). But since I use that spec once a week and otherwise go with DW spec I think it’s not worth it. I will continue respecing and keep backup fury spec for farming (so I don’t have to respec every day).
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March 4th, 2009 at 3:08 am
And yes, one more thing. If Ulduar is really that hard (if it’s anywhere near BT or SWP pre nerf) I will go with two prot specs for sure. I don’t know yet.
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Sephirawth reply on March 4, 2009 10:51 am:
I really don’t know if it will matter if Ulduar is like BT or SWP pre nerf. The guild I was in killed Illidan and up to Felmyst in BC pre nerf and BT was difficult for a while however it even became trivial at a certain gear level prior to 3.0. Once 3.0 hit I remember our first night raiding we cleared Hyjal and BT in one raid night with only 2 warrior tanks and a fury warrior who threw a shield on when we needed him to. Even if they did not reduce the HP and damage done our new abilities alone made us completely OP.
After that night we all were all talking amongst ourselves about how OP we all now were. Our classes are still so OP now with the talents we have been given I am not sure how the dev’s will make the contect as difficult as BC content unless the encounters are EXTREMELY technical (or bosses have 80 million hp!). I think they started down this path with Malygos - each raid member has to be responsible for his/her actions in phase 3. It will be interesting to see if we even need 2 prot specs at all or if we will just be able to annihilate contect as we are doing now. Ulduar can’t come soon enough imo…..
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Sephirawth reply on March 4, 2009 12:31 pm:
Revision to the above post (not sure how I mispelled content with contect)
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March 4th, 2009 at 4:38 am
Selfishly, I’m eagerly waiting for dual specs on my warrior so that I can try Fury (or arms, whatever is the best DPS spec) because until now it has been too much effort to respec, set up the whole toolbar sensibly, and learn the buttons until it becomes second nature. It’s also expensive to respec but the UI change and the learning have been the real barrier for me. I feel that until now I’ve only half-learned my class, and as soon as dual specs arrive I’ll be able to learn it properly. By comparison I’ve relatively little reason to get dual specs on my mage, other than to catch the new replenishment talent in frost.
It’s true that one should aim to be a great player, and not just average. But as Belthamel said, being a great warrior sometimes involves doing DPS and not tanking. There will be raid bosses where fewer tanks are needed and being able to do something other than tank is an asset. You’ll do 5-mans where they need a DPS, maybe because they have a superb tank that you should learn from, or perhaps because they have a struggling fresh tank that you should still let have a go, and perhaps advise. In any case, being a great warrior involves taking a job as DPS. The opportunities to do so should be enjoyed, and sucking at it is not acceptable! In BC. If I DPSed on Aran or Akil’zon I tried to be at the top of DPS, just as I would if I’d come as mage. Before 3.0 I felt protection could do competitive DPS with the right gear, but since 3.0 and the focus on blocking as protection it seems you have to spec for it.
A while back during BC, when my server was entering T5, I joined the top raid guild of the server with my mage. One of the most startling things I’ve learned from the guild was they had a recruitment rule: “We don’t like one-trick ponies”. One of our tanks was a bear. When we cleared SSC trash and reached a boss needing fewer tanks he took a portal, turned into a tree, and healed. Our top warrior tanks had full DPS tier sets, and it wasn’t because they were going spare or to do PvP. Our guild master was a paladin who absolutely always healed, except on Tidewalker where he tanked. Players were simply expected to know, and have gear for, every role of their class, and they didn’t say “but I don’t have gear” or “I’m a tank, I suck at healing/DPS”.
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March 4th, 2009 at 7:42 am
I will have to admit, questions of gear preparation aside, I probably won’t have an answer to whether I am going double Prot or Prot DPS until after there is a meeting of the raid tanks in my guild to coordinate. We all love tanking, that is for sure, but being a team player is sometimes about what we can do for the raid. I am sure we can put our heads together and figure out who is best prepared to do what.
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March 4th, 2009 at 8:53 am
First I dubb this term SUB-SPEC. TANK->DPS is off-spec. Tank->Tank is Sub-spec. Frostfire mage that has a sub-spec without improved scorch, or a sub-spec focused on AE burndown. See it works?
As for myself
I am not in a Raiding guild so plan to do Prot/Arms. Since most of our raids are with Friends/PuGs in 10-man there are only 2 tank slots. As a prot warrior if I am not the main tank my dps is bleh. So having a dps spec to switch to should both help me with finding slots into runs and contributing as much as I can each fight.
If you are your guilds/raid TANK week after week than I would expect you’d probably have 2 tanking specs, be it a physical vs magical or cooldown reduction based.
As far as letting people roll for off-specs once dual speccing comes out? I assume at first everyone will want to roll on off-spec gear. But assume it will return to were levels are about now. As many people have said, nothing is really changing. Some people respec before every boss already.
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March 4th, 2009 at 9:24 am
I’m don’t think that I’ve ever disagreed with you more.
OK, maybe not. http://www.tankingtips.com/2007/07/06/what-race-should-my-warrior-be/
Silly thick skulled orcs!
=P
Anyway. We basically did away with a ‘MT’ in an official sense in Sunwell, it just didn’t make sense to not use the appropriate classes & players, and to spread the action around between all the tanks. I still think that if you gave my guild a choice, they’d pick me. (outside of the clique’s and girlfriends of the other tanks =P) But the other tanks in my guild are tanks because they’re good. Because I trust that they can get it done. We’ve all got our strengths and weaknesses, both as classes, and as players, and using the appropriate player at the appropriate time is as important as using the appropriate class.
With the talent trees the way they are now, I don’t think my effectiveness as a tank will noticeably change if I use a different spec. And if an encounter is so finely tuned that a talent change will help, I can still hit up the trainer. Dual specs doesn’t change that. It just means it’s very convenient to switch rolls on the fly.
I think I’ve DPS’d Naxx once and Malygos once. But I was arms for half of Sunwell, because as valuable as I am as a tank, I’m still also valuable as a -player- and in order to spread the tanking love, I still need to provide value to the raid in a different roll mechanically as well as through managing social dynamics, raid logistics, and tactics.
The convenience of being able to wildly change my roll as a player out weighs the convenience of being able to make minor changes.
And I also don’t think taking an interest in PVP should in any way invalidate ones dedication to MTing. We don’t know how often you’ll really get to make a noticeable difference out of a prot spec change (and imp spell reflect is the only worthy thing that isn’t in a 15/5/51 build in my opinion) so the potential to respec for a situational fight should not invalidate my desire to not spend a fortune respecing to PVP in between every raid night.
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Veneretio reply on March 4, 2009 10:06 am:
A true MT goes beyond the cliques and while I agree, you’ve got a lot of strong tanks, I think your raid atmosphere and ultimately, your progression suffers from not having that strong MT presence that comes with a true MT. Someone you just can’t question.
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March 4th, 2009 at 9:38 am
Interesting Stuff.
I’ll certainly say that there is something special about main tanking, building the reputation of excellence, and the moral boost to the raid that comes with it. I also think its important to own up to failures. I’d like to think that most of the time when I die, it wasn’t my fault. But there are certainly times when I’ve done something that has directly resulted in my death, and very openly come out and said it.
If you’ve built yourself up to think your infallible, letting people know that your death was your own fault can be hard. But if your healers/raid recognize a failure/flaw in you, that you yourself refuse to admit exists, you’ll very quickly breed resentment and ill will. Pride and dedication are important qualities, but so is humility.
As an off note, this all also doesn’t address the issues caused by having all the gear/experience piled on one person, and the problems that can cause.
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Veneretio reply on March 4, 2009 10:09 am:
Ya, I’ll never agree with the gearing 1 tank before all others approach. The days where that made sense are long, long past.
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March 4th, 2009 at 10:18 am
I don’t agree, but that was a really interesting podcast and I understand totally where you are coming from. I don’t think it’s a good thing for anyone to be infallible in a raid, we’re all just human — but I do agree that it’s important that people can have confidence in the guys/gals who are tanking.
I’m also not so sure that dual specs have really changed anything about MTs vs OTs except given people the opportunity to show whether or not they are interested in being flexible. And that’s fine.
We have healers who plan to take two healing specs, dps hybrids who plan to take two dps specs, but thankfully no tanks who want two tanking specs because if they did, my chances of main tanking would go down the drain
I think the main thing is that having dual specs available will let the game be more fun for people. If that means dual tanking specs and that willl make you and your raid feel more confident, then have at it! The only thing I don’t agree with is on the dedication - I think it’s just as dedicated to put in the effort to learn to play a different spec well and gear for it, just you’re dedicated to something slightly different.
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March 4th, 2009 at 10:36 am
I’ve debated for a while since listening how I was going to respond to this podcast. Currently I’m a bit conflicted…I like what you have to say here but overall I tend to agree with the notion that you’re doing your raid a disservice if don’t have the ability to put out more thank tank dps numbers.
Last night we were working on 20-man maly for achievements. I already had that achievement so I deferred to our pally tank that didn’t. During their attempts I got a whisper that was something like “I get really nervous when you’re not tanking this sir”…I like to think that in most cases the majority of the guild would prefer to have me tank a most encounters. In that sense I feel I’m the MT. However, going into Ulduar if there are encounters like Sarth where it makes sense for a warrior NOT to MT and there isn’t a lot of adds or what ever else to have me tanking something else, I’ll simply lose my spot if I can’t DPS. While I feel I’m a MT I realize that I shouldn’t MT every situation. Even if a warrior CAN MT something (like Sarth), but it’ll mean less wipes for the guild if another tank does it I’m willing to make that sacrifice…OTOH I want to be the first to see encounters. I want to be in on the first kills even if it means I’ve got on a DPS hat…and putting on that DPS hat will help me there.
Though I think there’s still even another reason while I’ll likely go DPS for my second spec over Tanking…and that’s Glyphs. The fact that dual specs will retain glyphs and bar setups is ultimately the main reason (at least at first) why I’ll likely go DPS with my second spec. Right now there is one glyph that is basically considered mandatory by tanks - The Glyph of Blocking…but since almost any spec I’d want to be would have AT LEAST that glyph (and possibly another with the new glyphs on the horizon) I think it makes sense to have my second spec be a completely different set of glyphs…because right now I feel that would actually have me changing the least amount of things if I do respec.
…and lastly I sort of feel that it’s a failing in my game that I don’t have more experience and knowledge about the other warrior specs and rotations, etc (I literally haven’t been anything other than prot since I leveled to 70…so a couple years). I want to force myself to have to get a better understanding of the class as a whole rather than just the one aspect.
I dunno, maybe I’m just not a MT.
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March 4th, 2009 at 11:35 am
Great comments guys and gals. I’ll try to get a follow-up post up sooner than later explaining what 2nd protection specs I’m currently entertaining besides the standard 15/5/51. I think some of you will be a little surprised
I have to admit at times that I went over the top and that I didn’t want anyone to get the impression that you’re a bad tank if you don’t go tank/tank spec and instead choose to go tank/dps spec. We all have different parts to play and I certainly understand that if you’re an OT that tank/dps makes far, far more sense. I also understand that some guilds just have multiple MTs and that’s not going to change and if you’re in a guild like that then it makes sense to go tank/dps as well, but I think it also makes sense to go tank/tank too. That being said, I do think you lose a certain psychological advantage by not having a true Main Tank.
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Kavtor reply on March 4, 2009 3:54 pm:
The problem with that is the accompanying psychological disadvantage you get when your MT isn’t there. I’ve been fighting that for years, and it’s still prevalent.
Setting someone up as a primary MT might be worthwhile if they’re 100 percent dependable on anything that isn’t farm content, but just asking for trouble when your MT goes on vacation.
Your raid is better served by diversification. Many players that the entire group trusts to step up as a tank, or raid leader, or social moderator, rather than resting your hopes on a single person.
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March 4th, 2009 at 12:43 pm
EXCELLENT vene, absolutely amazing
i made a blog on tankspot a while back during sunwell about how there was no such thing as a main tank anymore, but that everything has because a tanking squad or tank team, but you are absolutely right, just because you are not the one standing in front of the dragon does not mean you are not the main tank. look at sarth, EVERYTHING this expac comes back to sarth 3d so far /sigh, i would say that the person actually tanking sarth is the least “main tankish” of all the tanks in the encounter, the drake tank is a main tank in the sense they are trusted by their guild to keep agro and make sure its positioned properly etc to make sure it dies before the second drake spawns, the whelp/fire add tank is a main tank in the sense that they are trusted by the healers to get everything off of them and not let them die, to properly kite the adds so they do not get hit by wall and enrage, to not turn thier back and get insta-gibbed with no avoidance, the sarth tank just stands there and moves maybe 5-6 times and hits cooldowns when needed not even attacking because if they did they would kill themselves and cant attack because the boss is immune
as a druid there are 2 tanking specs but the other one is redundant because we always have a frost DK (redundant in that you lose 4% damage for the druid thunderclap) so for my druid i never intended for my dual spec to be anything but a cat spec
for my warrior, i have had for the past month my 2 specs picked out and never ever planed on being anything but 2 prot specs
i am actually quite surprised at that poll
Are you going to use 2 Tanking Specs come Dual spec time?
* No (45%, 104 Votes)
* Yes (41%, 96 Votes)
i agree, i could probably use 3-4 specs for prot especially with the new glyphs coming out, just like the old adage when asking which item was better the answer was always “gear for the encounter” well now it is “spec/glyph for the encounter”. just like some warriors every maly would reglyph for a single fight then swap it back as soon as the boss was dead, its that kind of dedication that will make you a main tank for your guild
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March 4th, 2009 at 1:06 pm
I’ll have two tanks specs for several reasons:
1/ I don’t enjoy dpsing at all.
2/ My guild doesn’t want me to do anything but MTing because they like my reliability as MT.
3/ We run our 25man with 2-1/2 tanks (1/2 being a DK that use tank gear when needed, which isn’t that often).
4/ Even though I could use a different spec other than the 2 I am going to chose for some encounters, those 2 specs could cover most of the content that we have now. True it might change later.
I think that sadly this debate doesn’t really boild down to “the tank you really are”, but more about the place you have in a guild and who the other tanks are/want.
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March 4th, 2009 at 2:54 pm
I am always a tank! even when dpsing as a fury I am concerned about what tanks do. Can see fights from dps perspective, how they prefere things to be tanked.
I try to rotate tanks, for example we have 3 for 10 man group: one goes fury, one is OT the last one is tanking bosses. Next week fury will OT, last weeks OT goes MT, and MT will go fury
But I will sure I will have dual tanking spec at some point, if it is needed, but dps/prot makes more sense for me so far.
Better for casual raiding, and making more tanks confident.
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March 4th, 2009 at 3:19 pm
I think the truest statement of all is a “Main” tank is someone who is not just primarily getting beat on during each boss fight but who your group/raid/guild wants to get beat on each time. It makes it more of a title rather than a position and its a show of respect that has been earned.
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March 4th, 2009 at 11:14 pm
I’ve seen excellent comments here but as some above posters noted I will too most definitely go tank / dps for my dual specc.
While having two tank speccs might be convenient I think it won’t matter that much.The people that are thinking of going tank / tank either have problems tanking multiple targets so by having one dedicated specc for it their problems just might go away or they might planning using tank / tank specc with one being max tps and the other one max survivability.
The thing with Wotlk is that they made all tanks viable MTs but they’ve also made it that some classes have it easier then others when tanking certain encounter ( Sarthariod3D) and no matter how hard you try to specc I think you won’t be able to outperform them.
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March 5th, 2009 at 12:13 am
This the most humbling podcast (or commentary in general) I have ever heard.
In the past few days I had had some doubts about myself as a tank. I don’t know where they came from. (Hell, I only repaid my account recently. How could I lose confidence without playing the game?) Your podcast reminded me of the mentality required to play as a True Tank. I feel ashamed at myself for forgetting it. Thank you.
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March 5th, 2009 at 1:16 am
I agree. I don´t think a MT is needed in case of tanking every Boss, or doing all the work. But it is needed for social reasons.
I think i am the MT of my raid on paper. But in reality we are 2-3 real tanks. Everyone with excelent gear and experience, every raid evening.
When we startet raiding naxx, i think i tanked nearly every encounter for the first two weeks. But i decided to split the tanking work soon. Different tanks have different advantages. So let the dk / pala tank the crowd and so on.
Then all of our tanks had the same gear, and we splittet tanking jobs of experience. Every tank should learn every encounter as MT / OT what ever.
And now all of our tanks could do everything an we /rnd before every boss who is doing the job.
But there is still something behind it. Something you can´t give a name. I feel the status “MT” is more than a tank. ..
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March 5th, 2009 at 8:47 am
Dedication creates confidence. Yeah, i don’t think anyone will really disagree with that.
But i strongly disagree that it is better when this confidence goes to one and only one tank. I raid with two other prot warriors, one of them is just as dedicated to tanking as I am, the other is a little behind in that sense, not too much, but it’s obvious. If you want to put it this way, we have two MTs and one OT.
Now, what would I prefer? To have 2 OTs with lesser dedication than me, and thus lesser confidence? Or to have the third warrior at the same level of dedication? Well, clearly the second. Whats better than a dedicated and amazing tank? Three of them.
Honestly, i don’t see any disadvantages if the “MT” is a team instead of a single person.
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March 5th, 2009 at 10:18 am
I understand what you’re saying here, but I’m still trying to figure out if I agree with it or not. One thing that you need to do that I don’t believe you mentioned is to get guild leadership buy-in on this, just like you had to back in the days of a designated MT. (Most guilds probably can’t afford to have more than 1 or 2 people specced this way.)
The flip side of this is that you are also telling your guild that you are unwilling to do other roles, even if other tank classes would be better suited for that particular fight. This question is still up in the air I think, but are most raiding guilds going to expect you to have 2 raid specs? Will they take a paladin that can go ret or heal over a raid ret / pvp ret dual specced paladin?
Part of me also thinks that if you are going to spec this way, you almost should reinstate a system of MT priority for loot.
Ok, like I said, I’m still not sure where I stand on this or how my guild in particular will handle these issues. So no answers from me, just sharing the thoughts I had while listening.
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March 6th, 2009 at 2:22 am
You kinda opened my eyes. I never even thought about a second tank spec. But know I totally makes sense to me.
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March 6th, 2009 at 9:39 am
while i agree with most topics you talked about, one i DONT agree is if you pick a tank/something else dual spec specs that you are not a main tank. While I believe the presence of the Main Tank never completely left, i don’t agree that not having tank/tank specs will not make you a main tank.
A main tank can be dpsing and still be the main tank, its not the person standing around taking the hits, bit its also not ONLY tanks, a Main Tank is someone who usualy tanks, even if they take dps for a night or 2, and his/her presence in the raid raises morale, and gives confidence to everyone around them just by being there.
While I am taking 2 prot specs for my dual spec, most likely anyway, I am not doing this because it makes me a Main Tank, but because to me, flexibility in certain fights matter more than being able to contribute to the dps, fights have been designed around tanks being tanks, even in 1 tank fights, blizzard has stated that, so as much as a tank going dps for a fight might help with taking the boss down, i like the thought of having the thought at the back of my head of having another tank with me, in case for some reason i die due to poor timing on webwraps/enrages/etc..
I think Main Tanking is decided by how much effort and dedication you put towards your tanking, having a dps spec shouldn’t disqualify you from being a Main Tank. I can probably go dps for 2 or 3 weeks and still be a main tank, people would still want ME on the boss, and by me being there, it would still give the raid a morale/confidence boost.
While I deeply enjoyed your podcast and agree with most things you said, the Main Tank topic I did not.
Keep the pods coming =)
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March 7th, 2009 at 7:47 pm
I would expect most if not all MT’s for progression guilds (this is not just hard core raiding guilds) to utilise dual specs to min/max for progression encounters. Once content is on farm (ie the instance is cleared), that’s when the tanking rotation can become more relaxed and the MT will have more flexibility in regards to specs. Every other tank that’s in the raid can spec for DPS during progression just as long as they know what they are doing.
If Blizzard decide to keep the tanks the way they are and give Druids the advantage in EH encounters and DK’s the advantage in CD encounters then I’m sure guilds will recognise this and adjust. Just because you don’t tank every boss it does not mean that you can’t be MT, the MT role is much more that this.
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March 8th, 2009 at 3:49 am
I’m more or less doing a compromise on dual specs.
I considered two prot specs a while. Then I got to thinking… “our guild has two awesome prot paladins and two great dk tanks …do I really need an add spec?” (One paladin and one dk are equally or better geared than I am.)
Sure, our snap threat is pretty good, but in few seconds after that, if the packs to AoE are still alive, they go after the casters. I don’t enjoy aoe-tanking - on Naxx trash I’m often left wondering why am I not dps spec for trash when our Paladin/DK sucks all threat from me few seconds after the pull anyway, except for the couple of mobs I manage to hit SS/Revenge on.
And I hope that Ulduar would bring back some CC used in raids, so that not everything is an AoE-fest, so that trash would actually need to be tanked.
I do like multi-mob tanking, it’s challenging. What I don’t like are blind faceroll aoe-fests where dps don’t have the patience to wait for the warrior to have threat(which, admittedly, could take a moment).
My other spec will be Arms because it’s cool, natch. I will be tanking most of the time, but that will give me the freedom of actually DOING SOMETHING on trash. My prot spec will be pretty much MT/mitigation oriented since I am often, just not always, in the MT position.
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March 10th, 2009 at 2:06 am
I too, have thought about 2x prot for my dualspec, seeing the amount of talents that i would want or the glyphs that are coming out soon, it would be awesome to have a bigger grap on them with dualspecs. But in the end im gonna go with dps as my 2nd spec, not because i like dps’ing, i havent respec anything other then prot for the last 1.5 year, but because i think it would be good for the raid.
Some fight will favor certain type of tanks over others, eventhough bliz try hard to even out the playing field, but just look at what we got now. Sure, all bosses can be tanked with any kind of tank, providing you have the skills. But your tanking skills isnt the only thing that matter in a 25m raid. If you arent the optimum tank because you lack hp or cd’s or just take alot more dmg, the other 24m have to pull harder, even by a little bit, that could spell a lose in a progression or achievement fight.
I see dualspec as something that enable people to be flexible in the game, maybe you want people to say ‘that guy loves tanking so much, he got 2x prot’, some might see it like that, but some might also see you bein rigid or just a way to force yourself as MT on the raid, since the other guy got dps spec, and you got nothing but prot.
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March 11th, 2009 at 10:13 am
I made a 3rd raid team happen in my guild by switching from prot to holy on my paladin (a very generous JC helped too). Don’t question my commitment to tanking or progression because I put the needs of my guild and my friends ahead of what I wanted to do.
I still don’t know if I’ll heal tanks that refuse to have a non-tanking offspec. Being good and being stubborn are two totally different things. Unless Ulduar has lots of gimmick fights that reward abilities like Reckoning, Improved Spell Reflect, and Improved Disarm; you are not doing your guild any favors by going with two prot specs.
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March 13th, 2009 at 3:50 am
Every Forum post i’ve seen on this subject feels the same.
Side A: TANKS MUST DUAL PROT SPEC!!!!
Side B: DPS AS SECOND OR YOUR FAILING YOUR RAID GROUP!!!
Neither are quite true, and both are missing key info.
This depends entirely on YOUR specific raid group. And your role in that raid group.
For tanks whose raid groups rely on them heavily, like my own, duel prot is best. As I MT almost every boss, and pull the trash. Other tanks simply can’t beat my threat, and my heavy DPS, 3K+, trusts that “I” will NOT lose mobs. For me and my raid, I am best served as Dual Prot. Boss spec // Aoe Spec. Tanks in my situation will probably favor this as well.
OT’s and even MT’s who rotate with other tanks, will probably favor Prot/DPS for duel. Cause they don’t always tank.
Just remember: Duel Prot = Always being able to pick up mobs or bosses should a tank go down for any reason be it lag, Disconnect, or tank/healer error.
A trash build for second spec can produce decent dmg done, if not even dps. (MY personal trash set goal is top 10 in “Dmg done” to a boss, best so far, 12th.)
Prot/dps: Cannot pick up mobs or bosses if:
“A tank go down for any reason be it lag, Disconnect, or tank/healer error.” But can supply the raid with 2 major functions, full tank or full dps.
Above all else, decide what YOUR raid needs from you, not what some so called “elite raider” you’ve never run with or even met said should be “the standard.” But make the decision WISELY, talk to your group, find out what they prefer of you.
I trust all my dps to show up and push 3k+ single target. I’ve never spec’d out of prot. I let them do what there best at, and in turn they let me do the same. My team would laugh if I said I was gonna do something other than tank. A few top threat dps’ers might cry. I don’t even know how to play a fury. I tank, and my group trusts me to the best there is at both AOE and BOSS tanking. If i can out threat seriously geared paladins on AOE pulls on a single spec, im sure my AOE dps are as anxious to see me spec/glyph FULL aoe as I am. However, I dont feel comfortable trying to tank bosses in the spec I designed for aoe. And Will use my second spec as just that, my “Boss fight Spec.” Utilizing maximum survivability talents to there fullest.
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Voltaik reply on March 14, 2009 10:24 am:
Madtanker, and many other like him, are in a situation where their raid is wholly dependent on their tanking abilities. I hear a lot of “the other tanks aren’t good enough” from those planning to spec dual prot. Yes, if you can’t or won’t ever put the other guy in a position of responsibility, then no, you don’t want to dual spec. Obvious. But this is thinking from the past, where as a warrior, putting the other guy in the position of responsibility meant sitting out a boss fight, respeccing at some cost (time being the bigger one), or reducing your own contribution to crap. This is not how the world works any longer! You are no longer pushed, by the design of the game, to build up an exclusionary confidence in your own abilities. Your raid is not penalized by a tank swap unless the other tank sucks–which is a separate problem. Those of you who have a reliable tanking core will benefit from two-role specced tanks by optimizing your tank choice around fights, not player skill. Those of you who have crappy OTs should hit the recruitment boards.
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March 28th, 2009 at 3:40 pm
Listening to vene, I will be dual prot because that is all I have been. I have tried dps, but I feel more comfortable and I have more fun as a tank. Also, my guild setup is a casual 10man raiding guild. When I go in, I’m a tank. No ifs ands or buts. Otherwise, the raid most likely isn’t happening.
With that being said, I think people are in general, misunderstanding that vene’s approach to duel spec tanking is from the traditional standpoint where there is a defined MT and OT. If a person is comfortable being OT or is used to switching from prot to dps, it really doesn’t make sense for him to have 2 prot specs. For sath, the OT can switch to dps and have at it while the person who is accustomed to tanking can switch from one prot spec to another if needed and go at it as well. I do’nt think it is used to look down on people that are average tanks or lacksidasical, it is trying to get them to do what they are best at, like what madtanker was hinting at… My $0.02(US)
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