Loading ...The Thing I take for Granted the most…
I often chat with you, my readers, and I make this assumption. I assume you’re in a guild and amazingly, some of you aren’t.
But then, it isn’t amazing now, is it?
But, it sure feels that way
If there’s one thing I take for granted, it’s being a part of a guild and not just being a part of one, but having this established place in that guild. In the end, finding your place matters more than just about any other aspect of tanking. It’s what makes you confident and what makes you confident is what makes you great.
What is my Place?
I’m the Raid leader and Main tank of a casual-oriented guild that doesn’t raid much, (I define not much as 25mans twice/week) but when it does, it takes it quite seriously. I’ve had this gig for somewhere in the neighbourhood of 2 years, give or take a few months.
So What?
So, it’s my place. It isn’t something to brag about, it simply is. Which is the point. I was chatting with Miss Wordy Warrior last night and if there’s something that was a recurring theme in our conversation, it was that tanks seem to be a competitive lot by nature. There’s often this drive among us to become the best. It’s both an amazing and terrible quality.
It’s especially terrible when it comes to our Place.
Why it Sucks to be Competitive
When you’re really competitive, you aren’t willing to settle, but being a great tank is partly about settling. Basically, guild hoppers don’t make great tanks. Don’t get me wrong, they can be good, but there’s just no way they can be great. It’s because like it or not, we all have a certain presence… a certain playstyle.
The UnMyth of Style
In the past, I fought against this idea that there was such a thing as a playstyle for tanks. I wanted to believe that there was the right way to play and then there was the wrong way to play and that was it. What I didn’t account for though is that in a game based on random chance, we all sometimes play the wrong way and there’s no way of avoiding it.
Our playstyle is the ways that we are wrong. Which brings me to the point…
Your Raid is Compensating for You
People learn how you screw up. They do. You don’t even know it, but they’re compensating for your mistakes all the time just as you are compensating for someone else’s mistakes all the time too. It’s called being part of a team. Which isn’t to say, we should all give up on becoming better tanks, but it is to say, that in order for us to be great tanks, we need a team that understands us. A team that knows how we fail and saves us from those failures.
It’s for this reason that in the past, I’ve talked about pugging to improve our game. It’s an easy way to identify ways in our game that we’re not perfect because pugs have no idea how to compensate for our weaknesses. Identifying how we fail is a lot of times the hardest part of improving and once we know how we’re failing, we can often prevent ourselves from that failure.
Wait… so, should I join a Guild or Not?
Yes, you should.
Being a Great tank is not just about constantly trying to eliminate your mistakes, but also in accepting that you are going to make mistakes. And if you’ve got a place, your teammates are going to be there for you and they’re going to compensate for those mistakes. Which perhaps is an ugly reality to think of, but then consider the opposite. On average, how successful are pugs?
See people have this delusion that pugs are bad because the players are bad, but that’s rarely it. Pugs are bad because the players don’t know how to compensate for each other. (which is why what a great leader does is teaches people how to compensate for each other, but then that’s another story)
So, I shouldn’t leave my guild?
I have no idea if you should. I don’t know your place, but you do. If there’s one thing every person has, it’s this innate ability to just know whether or not they’re in their comfort zone. You know when you’re in your place. Which isn’t to say you know where your place is or what your place is, but it is to say that when you do find that place, you will know.
How do I find my Place?
You find it by settling, accepting and committing to a guild in a tanking role.
Settling
When we’re looking for our place, we all have dreams and aspirations of what the guild we want to be in will be like. The reality though is usually very different and usually very different in a way with a whole lot less grandeur. In my case, I left my first real guild at the start of The Burning Crusade to become a hardcore raider. As it turned out, that wasn’t for me and I ended up instead leaving that guild after a few months for the one I’m in now many years later.
Accepting
There’s nothing wrong with less grandeur. Our dreams have a way of creating impossible realities that not only don’t fit into our lives, but also aren’t actually what we wanted anyway. If your life doesn’t allow you to raid 7 days/week or if your personality doesn’t allow you to Main Tank, that’s okay. In my case, I realized that the tension of the hardcore, must-succeed atmosphere just wasn’t for me and ultimately, I could never have fit raiding 5 nights/week into my life for very long anyway.
Committing
Once you’ve accepted that you’re settling for the group that you’re a part of, it is merely a matter of time. Time, in other words, Experience, is the final and most vital ingredient to finding your place. Experience not with content, but with the people you’ll do that content with. There’s no fast way to do this. You just have to put in the time. Which is what I’ve done and it’s why I’m great at what I do with the people I do it with.
But then, I didn’t really settle, did I?
And, that’s where the real icing on the cake is. At the time, it may have felt like I was giving up on being a hardcore raider, but I was actually just finding my place. Years later, I’m part of a pretty amazing team that plays this game the way I want it to be played in a timeframe that I can afford to play it in and I’ve never been as great at this game as I am now as a result.
It’s all because I’m in my place.
Find yours.
June 15th, 2009 at 10:04 am
My place is currently unguilded. I have become very unhappy with the ability for my guild(s) to progress. Maybe it’s just my server, but a lot of the players are so casual that they put forth no effort.
I am an old school raider from the “Classic” WoW days and it’s really hard to find people now with the drive and common sense to effectively raid.
Maybe one day I’ll find a new home that will be comprised of players with the same mentality and skill level I have.
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Seeman reply on June 15, 2009 10:21 am:
Actually i have same problem. I would love to play the way Veneretio does. But i have very hard time finding the guilds that fits my ‘dreams’. In my experience, guilds are either hardcore(i played that in vanilla wow, then quited before tbc and joined again for bt and sunwell..doesnt work out for me since i started studying on university) or casuel but with crappy players which is driving me nuts. I guess it would be nice to find 9 other men and play maybe 10mens only but do hard modes, seriously, without noobs and cheap slackers.
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saberas reply on June 15, 2009 3:30 pm:
I’m actually in the same sort of situation. I was a raider at 60 (passed on raiding in BC almost entirely) and I have now found “my place” in a casual guild that raids a few times a week. It really works well for me but I find that the guild as a whole doesn’t really understand what it takes to clear content. I feel like an old man yelling from the porch at those damn kids about the old days when warriors were tanks and pallies and Druids were healers and that was the way we liked it. But its my place and good or bad it works for me.
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Draco reply on June 19, 2009 11:52 am:
I’m totally in the same boat here. I don’t want to take it so seriously that people insult the players for mistakes but actually learn from them and push forward. I dont want to set aside my life for wow either. Therefore I want a casual raid with experienced people that want to have fun raiding but take the raid serious enough not to slack off. I see countless players get pulled through the raid in a backpack which is annoying, just because they have valor gear they are supposed to know what they are doing? I’ve found that to be false more times than i can count, it’s so aggrivating. The golden rule of raiding “Don’t stand in the fire” seems to be above what many players can comprehend but that doesn’t halt their ego from saying it’s someone else’s fault.
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June 15th, 2009 at 10:04 am
So if being in a guild is the thing you take for granted the most.
And I’m in this guild.
Using A=B, B=C, A=C logic… I can therefore conclude that the thing you take for granted the most.. is ME.
And I can definitely agree with the raid compensating for you part…
Just playin babycakes (You can let Rungo pay that one)
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June 15th, 2009 at 11:26 am
From where I stand, I can fully agree with this. I’ve gone from uber-casual guild to MT of my current (casual-ish) raiding guild, and most of what it took was time. I make mistakes (hell, I’d be a terrible tank if I didn’t admit it), but more than that, the mistakes I’m likely to make are all understood by everyone around me. Similarly I know what errors my fellow raiders are likely to make and compensate.
That’s all a raiding team is, really, a bunch of raiders who know each other well enough to account for each others’ foibles. If they’re in a guild together, and enjoy each others’ banter, so much the better.
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June 15th, 2009 at 11:51 am
this post has definitely made me think about my place in my guild
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June 15th, 2009 at 12:36 pm
My place is odd i mt my 10 man raid (from a different guild) and ot the 25 man raid (again from a different guild). I just found i didn’t like the raid leaders methods and found something that worked better for me. So if your unhappy with your guild’s raiding doesn’t necessarily mean you have to gquit. My guild has an awesome group of people some of which are long term rl friends. But i don’t like how there raiding but no big deal i stay with them anyway.
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June 15th, 2009 at 12:51 pm
My place: OT of any guild I’m in, and I’m perfectly happy that way
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June 15th, 2009 at 12:54 pm
Vene I love reading your blog; your very talented at elaborating your thoughts on difficult to explain topics.
I think the above topic is also very relevant when your guild is recruiting a new tank. Being a former tank lead and officer I often had to try and explain the above concept to other officers when we had a “new” tank running with us. Often times people we complain how the recruit “sucks” or “isn’t in the right place at the right time” or similar complaints. Often time this was due to conflicting “styles”. I feel your explanation hits the issue right on the head. We haven’t learned to play “with” the recruit yet. Consequently we often judge tanks too quickly.
This holds true for healers as well. Your healers have to learn “how” you play. I’ve had the pleasure of playing with healers that just “know” me. They know when I’m gonna pull, how I’m gonna pull, and where they have to standing to stay outta trouble. This teamwork contributes to our success just as much as good gear or memorized strats. Same could be said for good CC, they already know what target your gonna concentrate on; and there’s no need to mark the CC, It goes off at the right time etc.
I agree, PUGS are a great way to stem the complacency on our part. We are always at our best on our own team because they know us and our style.
Beyond raiding PvP is an excellent opportunity to further learn your fellow players; the randomness of PvP encounters means you have to know your fellows tendencies even better then a comparatively predictable raid environment.
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Minuette - Daggerspine US reply on June 15, 2009 8:55 pm:
I agree with this completely. One of the biggest issues I had with the guild I was previously in was that they would do one “trial night” a week and every single trial member who was online got into that raid. Then they would proceed to go into ulduar or whatever their progression content was at the time and call every one of their trials “bad” all night and then never let them into a raid ever again unless they were desperate for people. If you’re part of a guild you have to give your trials and new members the benefit of the doubt and give them time to get into the groove…if after a few weeks of raiding they still don’t mesh, by all means, let them go. On the other hand, recruits have to be willing to work with the already established group of people and be flexible, the new people you’re raiding with have been raiding together for months, sometimes years, and they are adjusting as much as you are.
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June 15th, 2009 at 1:01 pm
Amen Brother. I’ve settled down in the OT role in a casual raiding guild and couldn’t be happier. We are progressing through Ulduar, getting gear, and enjoying the experience. I’d take what I have now over being the MT in another guild any day.
I will say that the MT and I tend to be competitive. I pass on gear knowing that it will help us all in the long run, but I think our competitiveness with each other has ultimately made us both better off.
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Drae reply on June 15, 2009 2:03 pm:
Friendly Competition drives us to be better; and is a great motivator for bettering yourself. I play regularly with my younger brother; our constant competition is occasionally tiresome, but I don’t doubt it has made us better players.
In my experiences, Ulduar us less about MT / OT and more about Tank 1 and Tank 1A. Often times the “OT” role has just as much responsibility, and requires just as much skill (albeit different skills) as the “MT”.
OT’ing is certainly much better then it used to be. I hope to gawd there’s never another princess huhu’ran.
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June 15th, 2009 at 1:10 pm
Absolutely awesome article. Having recently switched from the guild I learned to play the game in to a newly formed one (largely ex-patriots of the other guild). There is so much enjoyment to be found in the game by simply finding the situation that’s right for you. That said, you also can’t just expect to find a situation where you aren’t going to have to adapt either, but ultimately, it’s all about finding the team that you fit into just right.
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June 15th, 2009 at 6:14 pm
Unguilded here. Over the course of the game I’ve joined:
- A guild whose guild master dumped on me (making me leader) when I was leveling in Elwyn.
- A newspaper. We’re an RP server and had a newspaper. Pens were mightier than swords in this one.
- A random guild, intended to fend off invites from guilds with “crusaders” in their name, which was like all of them.
- The top raid guild of the server, while progressing through T5. Immense fun, but I could not really keep up that effort.
- An old and respected guild with a funny offbeat name.
- A splinter guild, mocking the name of the first one.
The process of joining a guild in WoW always baffled me. I don’t understand how one is supposed to. The usual ways are either to apply to a raid guild, in which case it’s a job, or to join a mass guild in which case it’s like following a team/party/local pub. In other games I’ve seen interactions that let players build trust and friendships more gradually and in that scheme I can see how an invite follows. But in WoW populations are high and interactions shallow, so it ends up backwards: first you join a guild, then you build relationships if you can.
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June 15th, 2009 at 10:05 pm
I began as a DPS (a Lock) and wound up in a couple of “hardcore” guilds in Vanilla and BC. It wasn’t for me… even as a DPS. Fast forward a year, and I had decided to go more casual. Was in a guild with IRL friends for a bit, it disbanded and I found a new guild… a very Casual guild, where I began my MT career. It was very casual, but we were progressing with some players getting better and better. Social issues got in the way and the guild collapsed under the weight of bad leadership. My biggest issue in leaving one guild wasn’t “will I find another guild?” it was “will I find a guild where I can MT?”
I eventually found a less than hardcore (read: no cursing at each other on vent and no leaders that think they are the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ) guild, but more than casual. The perfect balance I had been looking for, with 2 25-man Raid groups clearing content, and good solid players with good attitudes. I wasn’t MT to start, and was actually Fury for a lot of Raids. However, I was patient, and eventually got my shot… and took it. Now I’m the MT of one of the Raid Groups. I wouldn’t say I’m THE MT, because with Dual Specs and Ulduar, we share a lot of tanking between myself and others based on the situation. But I’ve gotten back to that comfort level I had in the old guild… which is the important part, like Vene said.
Don’t be worried over leaving a guild or joining a guild and what your place will be. It will work out. Just jump in and see how the water is. If you don’t like it, you can always leave and find a new place, just try not to leave and join guilds constantly. If you are meant to have a position in that guild, you’ll work your way into it soon enough.
I’m happy to say that I’m in a guild now that runs 2 different 25-man groups and we’ve cleared Yogg in one and cleared up to Yogg in the other. The people are very nice and funny, and there is so little Drama… no cursing and no rude and crude behavior. It really is the best Guild I’ve ever been a part of.
If you aren’t happy where you are, keep searching… but give each place a CHANCE to become something you’ll like.
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Drae reply on June 16, 2009 5:48 am:
aye, one of the reasons I’ve stopped progression raiding is that I can’t find a guild where both me (warrior tank) and my brother (a pally tank) can play together.
Similarily; when I quit the guild where that was possible (and I was in a position where both my specs were prot!); finding a guild that needed a tank at all, yet alone a MT of a progression guild was very difficult on my server.
The one thing I’ve realized is that if you truly are good; other players will notice and you’ll quickly be given the opportunity to “MT” again if you can mesh with their system. Just don’t go in expecting to happen; be patient, and when your chance arrives make sure you hit a grand slam!
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June 16th, 2009 at 12:23 am
I share my time between Healer and DPS, while healer is my calling (get nervous when I’m dpsing and see healthbars going down..) DPS is more fun. But I feel like I’m more secure in my healing role than DPS. I know my tanks, the bear that is always a bit nervous and takes time to mark everything, the warrior that bounds ahead and I have to stay right at his heals, the paladin that swears at himself when I die. I like em all, and like Vene said, because I know then, it’s feels like it’s supereasy to heal em all.
DPS is more of a race. A race I’m rarely comfortable with.
Tanking I’m taking babysteps with, but will get there
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June 16th, 2009 at 2:11 am
I read this entry when right in the middle of writing my (tankspot) blog. Amazing how much this resonated some of my thoughts and my struggling of finding my comfort zone. Thanks for another great read Vene.
To all of you out there still struggling - best of luck! I know your pain.
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June 16th, 2009 at 5:13 am
Im currently guildless which isnt really a problem as like most tanks i have the ability to lead raids.
most weeks i have been creating pugs and clearing content, not nearly as much as a good guild but enough for me to get by being a casual raider with not the best work working hours
Pugging raids these days isnt nearly as much trouble as it used to be getting people to link achivements make all the difference….well so long as you know how to lead the raid and know the setup needed
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June 16th, 2009 at 6:49 am
Vey timely. I had some crap happen the other night and I acted like a fool. I needed this as a reminder of what I am supposed to do, what is expected of me and what I expect from my guild. Thank you for this post.
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June 16th, 2009 at 7:28 am
Well I think I will extend topic to one more thing that’s very close to topic.
Current 25 man content demands 3 tanks, however we have 5, situation was that 3 of us tanked trough tier7 raiding all together and made imba team. We were and we still are. However - RL stuff made 3rd tank to be absent for about 50% of raiding. That’s why we have 2 other tanks who are getting his spots on those nights. However problems come when me or 2nd tank is absent and some of them raid with our 3rd tank from Nax days - he claims that they are not part of the team and he’s not good with them in same amount as we are with him. 2+1 of them works as charm, 1+2 of them doesn’t work that much, they taunt of each others, they battle for loot, they don’t coordinate that much… That’s something that I work closely to improve, while trying to make them happy about current position in the guild.
On the other hand, back to the topic, I took hardest way to ensure my spot and to make everything works so I took both GM and MT spots. It have shitload of work but you can make it fit your needs…
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Veneretio reply on June 16, 2009 8:07 am:
What’s the dual spec situation around the 5 tanks? Taking 4 of them and having 1 of them DPSing each time can go a long way towards finding a spot for them in other ways and helping them become part of the team.
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Mookey reply on June 16, 2009 5:31 pm:
Yes - works imba with feral druid who is usualy dpsing when he have nothing else to do - it’s ok, altho one of them - warrior, just recently started building fury gear, he is barely moving over 2K dps with current state. And Third (actualy our old nax budy) is pala who started building retri gear just few days ago… He thought he gonna use healing offspec for some fights but we barely need extra healer above number 6. Yes I know - having him heal and healer dps is just waste of performance atm.
You did catch instantly our problem and solution Vene, and yes we started working on it, but however… it sliped trough our view and we ain’t identified it on time. I just wanted to point out that way of handling spots aswel - for readers to have in mind.
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Cleaved reply on June 17, 2009 11:17 am:
Don’t forget to run N25 and Ulduar 10 each week for offspecs only. Bring a couple groups of 10 (if you are running U25 you should have enough for 2 groups+), and work on getting gear for offspecs only. Try to limit mainspec rolls to only Tier tokens.
Currently I am doing this with good results. We are spreading the loot very equally, as well as building up some Abyss Crystals in the GBank. N25 is especially good for Abyss Crystals, and the later bosses will feed a lot of gear that is STILL good in U25.
U10 has loot that is… for your main spec, not very good compared to N25 stuff. But, that gear is very good for your offspec and less contested. We run N25 and people still take things to fill gaps in their Mainspecs, because that loot is still pretty good. The loot from U10 will NOT make you as amazing as your fully N25/U25 geared DPS, but it will make your offspec do more damage than if you are using a bunch of BOEs and Rep Gear.
Currently in my Fury off-gear I’m putting up 5k to 6k DPS, depending on the fight and buffs. My gear isn’t that great and until last night I was using a Jawbone and a Death’s Bite as weapons. I still have Ebon Blade Rep Boots too >_
June 16th, 2009 at 8:56 am
I’m not very happy with 1 of the OTs, friendly competition can drive us to be better, like drae said, but all i’ve seen is unfriendly competition, I’m the MT of the guild, and also an officer, so it is my responsibility to ensure that all tanks do their job, and i’m open to any suggestion.
However, everything i said to this OT, she has to prove me wrong somehow, even though I’m right. Looking at recount, talking to dps, and pointing out her mistakes but she never accepts it, this is driving me nuts sometimes. Maybe she wants to prove that she’s better than me? I don’t know. But i don’t think this is important as long as we both do our job in raid.
I wish i can communicate with her, but i just can’t, sometimes I can’t get her to do stuff, cos she doesn’t think its necessary to do after a lengthly “trying to prove me wrong” conversation, so i just had to give up cover her part. Most of the time it was just something requested by dps or other officers, and i was just relaying, but because it was me who said it…….
The other OT has no idea, and just waiting to be feeded with info, or instruction on how to tank, but will perform his job very well if clear instructions are given, and thats all the tanks we have (reliable tanks are hard to recruit
)
I really miss the days when tanks in my guild talk to each other in a friendly way, talking to each other about what tricks they have discovered on certain bosses so we all tank better. We also talk about tank mechanics and specs, etc.
Thats my position in guild. Honestly, I am not very happy, with the tank situation. However, leaving the guild is not really an option. I made this guild, together with 2 other person. I’ve also gotten default loots and leaving is a shit thing to do.
I’ve thought about stepping down as the MT, even as a tank, but I’ve talked to a few people they all said that OT1 cannot be the MT, its just hurting the guild too much. I guess most people are just used to me tanking (it has been 2 years).
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Drae reply on June 16, 2009 10:21 am:
I can offer a few suggestions, Ive been forced down a similar path in the past; tho take it with a grain of salt because I’ve since moved on.
1. Consider when and how you are engaging in the conversation with the first tank you mentioned: often times typed conversations can be mis-interpreted, Vent is a better option. Also during a raid, immediately before, or immediately after can be sensitive times for difficult discussions. Often times people only learn by mistakes; let her make her own, you may wipe, but your tank may learn a lesson that will serve you better when your relying on her. Let her know that it’s not as important that your doing it the right way; but that your all doing it the same way.
If it gets really bad, like one of her disagreements causes a wipe at an inopportune time, bench her for a night. Explain why, verbally remind her your the leader, and that’s just the way it is.
2. Create a tradition of debriefing. At the end of a raid night, take 5 or 10m to discuss with your fellow tanks what went wrong and what went well. Concentrate as much on the good as the bad. And this is key… be open to criticism as well. The debrief doesn’t work as well (and you won’t learn)if your fellow tanks can’t reciprocate. ASK for criticism of yourself if you have to. It doesn’t work if it’s not a two way street. Explain reasoning, why you made certain decisions, etc. The purpose is to create a situation where everyone is equal and can share their thoughts and experiences on the night. Taking criticism from your “problem” tank may be difficult, but LISTEN to her, and remember her opinion is just as valid as yours or anyone elses.
3. If your getting burnt out being THE “MT”, rotate, even when your in the raid, go DPS if you like; to hell with the DPS and the healers, judge for yourself if your fellow tanks are capable. Be patient and be open to “training” your new guys. Your DPS and healers won’t like it, and you may struggle the first night or two but in the long run it’s the right decision. Guild, raid, and tank leading all at once is a tough and stressful job, learn to delegate.
Sometimes the best decisions are tough ones to make. Training a new tank will always cause the dps and healers to complain, but they need to earn the experience somewhere. Better to “nip it in the bud” so to speak.
Taking criticism from your “problem” tank may be difficult, but LISTEN to her, and remember her opinion is just as valid as yours.
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Mookey reply on June 16, 2009 5:37 pm:
Funny how RL can interfere with this…
I have same situation on my work. I am lead designer and I got deputy to do prepress and some other daily jobs (we are working in gaming wholesale company) - and I felt that bit of competition Cori is speaking about - how I solved?
I always said good words about him in EVERY possible situations when he did something good and draw back to critic him for few times, few times covered his mistake… and with balancing this on one side, I created safe buffer to be able to critic him to improve.
Think about that approach and make sure that whatever good your 2nd tank do - say some good words, s/he will make better opinion about you, wont feel competition and will start taking criticism better - if s/he don’t - get rid of it, better soon then late.
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cori reply on June 16, 2009 9:24 pm:
thanks guys, for some good ideas, benching is not an option in our guild since we only have 3 tanks in guild, and we usually just have enough to do 25man, recruitment is hard, when we’re not top 3 on server.
but will start to really looking into the communication methods mentioned.
You’re right, i just realized, although i’m very open to criticism, i’ve never asked for it, so i don’t get much, being an officer, i think people won’t criticze as much, rather saying good things about me for a raid spot or a better time in guild, though i don’t do not acknowledge this, i do feel people doing this sometimes especially the new members.
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Fently reply on June 16, 2009 9:41 pm:
As for the DPS talk portion of it. Our guild made a “rule” that dps chatter doesn’t happen in any open channels. There is a dps channel for linking metres and general feedback and whispers are used for direct feedback. Not sure if this would work for you?
The other option is to giver her “her time in the sun” step aside and let her MT A couple fights. I’ve done this in the past and it makes a world of difference when you show the “OT” that really they are a second tank not just an off tank. Try even using the two OT for the ignis giants or other trash that only needs 2 tanks - don’t mark a mob for you - just for them. It shows that you’re willing to take a step back.
Cleaved reply on June 17, 2009 10:58 am:
More and more… being an OT is harder than being the MT on certain fights. Try stepping aside some and letting the other Tank have a shot, if only because you might enjoy Add tanking more than you know. I consider OT’ing to be MT’ing on certain fights due to the placement, picking up and management of adds in general, being harder than standing there and tanking a boss.
I am proud to be the “go-to” Tank 90% of the time, but I know that on certain fights I step aside because I trust myself to do Add tanking better than the other tanks. I look at it more as stepping up, instead of stepping aside.
In any case, many Tanks consider boss-tanking to be “MT duty” and if you need to do that to bolster another tank’s confidence… then do it. Worst thing that happens, is they fail and you help them figure out what they did wrong. As good a tank as any of us is… we’re all Human and cannot be at 100% raid attendance all the time. Someone has to pickup the slack when we take vacations or have family obligations.
Malavar reply on June 19, 2009 8:10 am:
“Try stepping aside some and letting the other Tank have a shot, if only because you might enjoy Add tanking more than you know. ”
Actually I second that recommendation of letting the OT tank for a night because it will quickly give them a wake up call as to the experience and knowledge you have and they’ll respect you all the more for it afterwards.
“More and more… being an OT is harder than being the MT on certain fights.”
Switching perspectives is where the difficulty comes into play I’ve found. If you’re continually OTing and suddenly are put into the MT role, it can be disorienting, even though you’re almost doing the exact same thing. Same thing can apply when switching from MT to OT. Once you’ve got enough experience switching people roles, it’s pretty easy to switch on the fly after that.
cori reply on June 23, 2009 12:45 am:
hmm i don’t think she really want to tank that much, that stepping aside will do anything, i think it might just be the MT label, and i also don’t tank boss on every encounter. But i’m the only tank with dual tank spec (i.e. cannot dps) so I tank all 1 tank encounters.
I do agree OT is harder on some certain fights but sometimes its just better with me tanking the boss because of sunders (OTs are paladins and DK sometimes)
If i go tank adds, melee would QQ :/
but for fights like sartharion with 3 drakes, i do tank the drakes..
So i’m not really the type which I must tank the boss, if there’s a better setup than the tradiational MT/OT, I usually go for it.
Cleaved reply on June 17, 2009 11:07 am:
Cori, as to your initial posting:
Get rid of this bad-apple OT, and find another OT on your server. There are LOTS of tanks out there looking for a shot, and very eager to learn and do well. You have one of them as your other OT, and you have this poison-pill as the other. The last guild I was in was torn apart over some crappy OT we had with lots of friends in the guild. He repeatedly screwed up… taunted bosses off me causing wipes, taunting trash mobs for no reason, and just not knowing fights or gearing principles. But it was the only tank we had and… he was good friends with a good portion of people in the guild (IRL friends).
He made all kinds of excuses for bad Tanking… fat-fingering Taunt, etc… but never ever ever fixed them. This tank irks me to this DAY because he was so horrible and made MT’ing a nightmare. Imagine someone taunting Sarth off of you and turning him into the DPS mid-breath… and wiping the entire raid >_
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cori reply on June 23, 2009 12:09 am:
ah same here can’t really get rid of that OT, missus of an officer
and she’s been with us for almost a year i think, she’s not that bad, she does her job well most of the time its jsut minor attitude problem.
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Drae reply on June 21, 2009 11:16 am:
Any luck cori? I’m interested in how your situation is playing out.
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cori reply on June 23, 2009 12:32 am:
haven’t really done anything yet, esp the tank evaluation thing i’d really want to do, in the past few weeks, was too busy with RL stuff, just logging in for raid, updating dkp and off, couldn’t squeeze in more time for wow.
For some reason i think she has changed a bit, maybe cos my GM has talked to her (which he said he was going to), she seems to be very cooperating recently…..
I guess things just went bad when i did my first comment when we were progressing at yogg, with a lot of things she did wrong, and keep killing herself.
A lot of the arguments come from her lack of knowledge on warrior tanking mechanism / or tanking mechanism in general, but I have played all 4 tank classes).
And yeah i’ve been dpsing t7 content a bit last week, was a good change, thogh i wouldn’t enjoy doing it all the time.
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Cleaved reply on June 23, 2009 4:23 am:
I enjoy taking a break and going Fury. My last guild that had a similar issue like yours… I tried to solve it by going Fury. Eventually the guild broke apart before I could figure out if it worked. In any case, I went Fury, let my usual OT be MT for a good while… and people weren’t very happy. There is nothing like being good at your job, then taking a vacation, and coming back to praise. You just have to make sure you are good enough that you are missed
If you OT and let the OT become MT, you will pickup the slack. If you go Fury, however, and the OT becomes MT and another tank is OT, people may start to notice the flaws of the OT. I’m not saying you should point them out and say ’see, she sucks’, far from it. Instead, let the Raid figure it out, and let her figure it out. She’ll learn a lot more by doing the tanking without you to cover her mistakes, since she doesn’t like to listen.
I’m glad things seem to have gotten better though, Cori. Perhaps she reads TankingTips.com and saw how we all backed you? =P
cori reply on June 23, 2009 9:26 am:
Fake name :p don’t want to cause too much drama, in case people in my guild reads this.
you’ve a very good point there, regarding going dps instead of swaping tank targets, i might do that when we recruit a new tank :/c(we’re actually looking for a back up tank) not very possble atm with only 3 tanks in guild and we’re doing hardmodes (not at farming stage yet).
June 16th, 2009 at 9:38 pm
I have also been part of a casual-family guild for some time. We have been together give or take 3 years. It started with 5 of us transferring from a hardcore raiding guild to a different server to start something new. I have found my role that as Raid Officer, Main Tank and Strategist. I have been lucky enough to fight along the same Off Tank almost the whole time. Someone made a comment the other day “you two could only ever app to another guild as a team”. We literally finish each other’s sentences and are constantly picking up the right mobs without even marking them. You are definitely right - having the right people behind you is what makes this game worth while. I have an amazing team of raiders - we are all on the same page and most of us are connected to the original 5 by real life ties. It really is the reason most people in our guild still play the game.
Thanks for a heart-warming post!
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June 17th, 2009 at 1:23 pm
I gave up pugging and now only play with my guild. Reason is exactly what you’re stating: that the people who know me make up for my mistakes. And I CAN make mistakes. Without getting yelled at, called a noob or kicked. People make mistakes, it’s a random game.
I only run with my guildies now, because I know what they can do and they know what to expect from me. I think that’s the best part of this game, play with ppl you know. That’s where my place is, and that’s where I’ll stay.
*$
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Chet reply on June 17, 2009 1:32 pm:
yeah, I don’t pug much because I tend to make many many more mistakes in pugs. I used to pug on my mage all the time, and didn’t care, but when you try to take responsibility for several strangers, at least when I do, it makes me a little nervous, and I end up doing things I would never do in a guild raid. I’m trying to break out of that a little bit, but it’s tough, ’cause I don’t want to make a bad name for myself while I try to gain confidence with strangers.
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Cornfedhick reply on June 17, 2009 3:01 pm:
Vene had a post a while ago about being able to get better by running a bunch of pugs. That is also a good way to keep yourself humble. There is no better way to learn than by making mistakes. You deal with the unknown on a regular basis and you will be better prepared for many more situation than if you were to know what to expect from the same people all the time. It’s also helped increase my patience in bad situations, like when DPS’ers screw up a LoS pull don’t follow kill order or you are getting people familiar with new content. I think we spoil ourselves sometimes if we are lucky enough to roll with the same people constantly. By changing it up you are repeatedly challenged and less likely to become complacent because you’re being kept outside your comfort zone.
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June 17th, 2009 at 1:48 pm
I think you made an eloquent argument for joining a guild, but I think I’m too casual a player even for that. I’m a heroic 5-man tank who really only plays weekend mornings on an server one hour ahead of me (Gilneas) with my best friend. This is the schedule that best fits my life now, and I stick to it. Considering how sparse my server is populated at 5 - 6AM on a Saturday, I have huge doubts about finding a guild there that not only would have me, but have enough people that keep the same kind of hours. Sure, I could try to transfer to a different server that may have more people playing at that time, but I guess I’m too stubborn to.
So I tank for pugs. Since I always have my friend along and he’s usually playing his holy priest, that helps, because since we partied up from level 1, we have built up a great amount of rapport in game. Even then, pugs are pugs, but I’m at peace with that.
I think that guilds are a good way to make playing the game more fun, just by building a good social and play relationship with a steady group of people. At the same time, I think my level of commitment to the game is too low even for the most casual of guilds.
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June 17th, 2009 at 1:50 pm
Besides learning the warrior tanking techniques, playing with friends give me the greatest joy.
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June 18th, 2009 at 9:18 pm
Been in 3 guilds since WoW BETA. In all 3 guilds we’ve kept the same basic 10 or so people. I wouldn’t trade any of them for much of anything. We’ve been through MC - Ulduar all together. While we’re not perfect and we don’t always go through content as fast as I would like, I’d never go to another guild.
They know how I play and what I suck at and what I’m good at and I know them the same way. That’s why we work so well.
Love you Ascension assholes
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June 19th, 2009 at 12:11 am
Ah Vene, been reading your posts now since late last year when I was looking for that little bit more in tanking websites. You always present a thoughtful and open approach to tanking that I agree with.
Frankly, this post couldnt have been put up at a better time for me. I have been the MT of a substantially crap guild for over a year now. Guys that I stuck with because some were RL friends and they were my first guild.
Without going into too much detail we had a lock, hunter and mage who put out less dps then me as the warrior tank. Guys that refused to use addons at all, adjust their spec’s or read forums for advice. Guys that were incapable of killing anything past flame leth. I was frustrated and in a crew who didnt want to match me (other then my healer and rl partner).
Im not an elitist or hardcore raider, I enjoy some casual play and pvp. But I do strive for improvement. To get better in my skills and gear and nobody around me did (or appeared to).
The break finally happened last week. We were doing naxx 10 to get a new guildy some gear. And everyone but me and my healer died on Heigans dance in the first wave of the first dance. Everyone. All 4 attempts. These guys have done this fight more then 50 times each (except for the newb), and some of them have never got past that first dance. The fourth time me and the healer just finished it ourselves, as we have done before.
Afterwards, I snapped and lashed out. I said some harsh things and then logged off. I logged on the next day to find out I had been booted from the guild.
I was hurt and angry. I tried a poor attempt at reconcilliation with the GM. But I knew my place was not there. These guys werent going to get any better and I wanted more.
My healer and I signed up with a new Guild on a new server. And the change has been amazing. Im finally in a group with people who are a bit more serious (but not too much) about what they do. I actually got to kill 6 bosses in Uld! something I thought impossible, or would take months and months to accomplish with my old guild.
I guess what Im saying is that I held on with a group in which I obvioiusly didnt belong all because I had a rl friend amongst them all. This left me frustrated and annoyed. Things came to a head because I held on for too long and should have walked away earlier.
Now I am in a fresh guild finding my place again. A place I really want to be with, with peers who want to contribute at the same level. And, I am finally having a lot more fun.
Whenever I read your posts I always realised what you have just realised in this post: That you must have an awesome guild that really put in an effort and understand you. Something I have longed for, for a long time. Im glad your not taking them for granted Vene, and maybe I get to have my place too now.
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June 20th, 2009 at 3:48 am
Ive been reading your posts on tanking for a while now, and i think this is your best post so far. Finding your place and accepting it is the hardest thing a tank can do, more over a person. If your with the right group of people not only do you grow as a tank, you guy as a human being. The hardest thing to realize though is things change and what once was will be undone by others changing needs. I used to lead raids, i used to be picked up by other guilds as an outsider with full loot privileges and in time I helped lead my guild do something great in classic amid the rush before BC. Today I find myself guild less , with so many class changes the warrior tank by some is thought of as useless. My ideals were always the same, but everything around me changed. The hardest thing to learn is to walk away. Anyways im ranting! great post
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Drae reply on June 21, 2009 11:27 am:
“The hardest thing to learn is to walk away. ”
QFT. Sometimes you grow out of a group. Letting go and having the confidence that you will find another home
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June 20th, 2009 at 1:22 pm
Vene, first I’d like to say that you are VERY lucky to be in a guild you are in. One that is casual and still progressing seriously. I’ve had guilds I had settled in and after about a half a year or so, break up because of drama between officers. One broke up a year ago because of RL drama between the GM and her husband (who also was an officer).
I had to leave another guild (that eventually stopped raiding completely) because they were so stubborn about the process that obviously wasn’t working. They trusted their OGs and their advice and when I introduced my ideas and concerns, they treated it like it was nothing and kept saying they had a system that worked (when it clearly wasn’t). My biggest mistake was not leaving for another guild when I had the chance but kept thinking that I could help the guild progress. I checked /guildinfo the other day and even though they had 200+ toons in there, only 80 unique accounts existed. It became a alt factory. I finally had to leave because they scheduled the raid too early for me. Their reasoning was that they thought they had the best interests of the guild in mind because the “majority lives in the east/central timezones”. So since i would only get to raid 1x every other week, I left.. Not angry, but saddened that I spent so much time in a guild that wasn’t going to progress anyways.. I main tanked for them, main healed for them and lead the raid for them and they didn’t find me to be an integral part of their guild, was their first 80 and led their first naxx10 clear. On top of that, the week before I left, the GM called me into vent and asked me if i was trying to undermine the guild officers… That just left a sour taste in my mouth because I was only trying to help the guild. If that was seen as undermining the other OGs, then I decided to leave without looking back.
Right now, I don’t believe I will find anything out there (though i have found a pug spot with a guild that needs a tank). If not, we have pug naxx25s running everyday and hopefully I’ll get the gear i need to complete the 10/25 ulduars and get into Icecrown. Guilds haven’t been nice to me and i really don’t see why i should stick to one if this is going to happen everytime I join a guild.
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Drae reply on June 21, 2009 11:31 am:
You’ll find the right home eventually, even if it means switching servers. One of the best ways to ingratiate yourself with a prospective guild is to run alt runs with them; finding the right guild is like finding the right beer league team, you won’t find it on the first try.
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June 20th, 2009 at 6:54 pm
Being with people that trust you brings you more then you can get from the pug - they will trust you no matter what you do.
Example:
One day I wanted to try tanking Ignis with 2 positions (instead of 4 proposed by TS guide that works for us anyway) I did it and most of the people got confused, however during that try I got msg when I turned Ignis toward water “Scorch is doused by water” erm… WTF? ok that’s the key… It was last boss fight for that night (we usually first rush keepers leaving Ignis/Razor for last 30 min of some other day raids)
So I got complain “Why change tactics that works” “Because new ways of doing encounters gives me some time to experiment on stuff” - I told people that were tired by then to do old tactic and we killed him without too much trouble, but I got precious info and my people didn’t make problem for one wipe on Ignis due experimenting. However my OT did catch my thoughts, I got precious info. Next reset - I told him we will do 2 spots.
Long story short - by dousing every 2nd scorch in water, I was able to tank him in only 2 positions which allowed for more dps and much faster killing of the elementals, which brought us to 5 min kill (4 min is achievement) everyone was like “WTF how we did it” - me and my OT were smiling… Free of charge experiment gave us hints how to tank him for this, and for sure we gonna improve even more - our guild and their trust compensated for it - otherwise we would be called idiots/noobs/morons not knowing TS tactic and standard way to kill him. Info we got - gave us knowledge to improve and set proper new tactic for killing him. If we are not MT/OT, if it was pug, we would be removed and called noobs for sure.
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Drae reply on June 21, 2009 11:33 am:
Id keep that up mookey, how do you think the 10man sarth 3d zerg was discovered? experimentation most likely! Seems like you have a real solid OT, don’t take it for granted!
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Cleaved reply on June 22, 2009 8:08 pm:
I like the “4-square” tanking of Ignis. I see that 2 spots might make for less movement, but we make up for it because when he stops at each corner and moves to the nearest corner, the DPS really doesn’t have to move much, and then its only Melee.
I reckon I could just tank him back and forth, but I would have to douse a set of flames. The speed we go and with the movment, it puts the adds near a Scorch most of the time, since the adds come from the 4 corners as well. I’ll hafta see about giving the 2-position strat a try, but I think 4 works fine.
Also, for the achievement, you get a solid OT to pickup adds, give him some great healers and then burn the boss down while facing him towards a pool of water. This way, all the flames extinguish and you kill him before your OT dies. Need to have geared OT and some hawt DPS to pull it off within the 4 minutes. We’ve actually had our OT last 5 min. when we had some fill-ins on our normal 25-man group. Its all about great healers, a great OT and both of them knowing when to use CDs.
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June 22nd, 2009 at 2:06 am
Very good post. When we started our raiding back in TBC, I used to be our MT and a long-term RL friend was our druid healer. Even though druids weren’t considered the best tank healers I always stuck with him, and that healer-tank relationship just worked. We knew each other and blowing cooldowns came naturally, out of the “right feeling”.
The same thing holds true for when grouping with my brother. The better you know the person behind the character, it seems, the better you know what they can handle and what you have to / can focus on.
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June 22nd, 2009 at 11:18 am
I still don’t know how you can be MT and raid lead. That’s like trying to be the pitcher and the catcher of the baseball team to me. It must be working for you though.
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Veneretio reply on June 22, 2009 2:11 pm:
I guess I’d say it’s closer to being the Pitcher + Coach than anything else. There are times when it certainly is challenging and I end up having to delegate, but ultimately, I find it at times is far better than if I were a healer or dpser. The reason is by tanking, I’m saving the raid from myself.
As a raid leader, you’re always fighting the urge to control everything. (micromanage) The beauty of tanking is you don’t get to see all the little things that aren’t important to manage like someone standing in fire or moving too slow. Those things are going to happen and it’s up to the individual to solve them and I really don’t think raid leaders should worry about it.
Here’s an old blog entry at tankspot that briefly discusses my points on the subject: http://www.tankspot.com/forums/blogs/veneretio/1304-why-mt-often-makes-best-raid-leader.html
That blog isn’t handled nearly as professionally as this one here, but if you’re looking for a blog that focuses more on raid leading than tanking then it may be what you’re looking for.
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Mookey reply on June 22, 2009 6:19 pm:
Tyran and/or Commander says: GO! Attack!
Leader says: Follow me! (and goes in first)
It’s in human psychology… They will be more eager to follow you to anywhere if they see you going first then they will be ready to attack if you say GO and stay behind them.
I was leading as Healer, as melee dps and last few years as tank. It’s whole new world now. That’s all about trust that Vene is speaking about in original post
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Cleaved reply on June 22, 2009 8:01 pm:
I think it is somewhat situational. Some fights it is hard to see what is going on in the room, and that hampers your communication when you are focused on a boss. I try to raid lead as little as possible, but I chime in with the Raid Leader whenever I feel something needs to be said right then and there. Otherwise, I do my job and keep my trap shut, unless I notice things going bad or am taking it upon myself to call some stuff out.
I lead by example and try to lead by keeping the pace good. I don’t need to be raid-leader to do those things. I can pull mobs, tell everyone to be ready, and not have the burden of the “title” of raid-leader. Every Tank should be a leader, because even if you OT you’ll need to call something out at some point and give direction. I like Mookey’s example of Commander and Leader, because its like that in Raids I’m a part of. We have a Commander, and we have several leaders underneath. Whichever way you wanna put it, we have subordinates that can be relied upon to do what needs to be done, communicate and delegate as well. Anyone can be a Raid-Leader if you know the content and can tell people what to do with some authority behind it. Just because you don’t have the title, doesn’t mean you can’t lead. Every raid should have a leader for each specific type of troop… caster, melee, tanks, healers… or even class-specific if you like.
It is a nice rose-colored world of ideals, where each player takes responsibility for not standing in fire. However, I think that for about 90% of us, that world doesn’t exist. People will screw up, people will need to be told something even though they KNOW it and have done it 200x. This is why we have raid-leaders in the first place, to give direction. If we were all pro at standing where we should and doing things right every time, Vent would be silent as we plod through the content.
DBM is all well and good, but stuff still needs to be called out. I like the Raid-Leader doing it 99% of the time, because he is in a position to see more than I am most of the time. I am ever-vigilant, but I dislike tanking and mashing a mic bind all-the-frickin-time. When I hafta mash the Mic, sure, I’ll do it… but I shouldn’t have to be on it constantly.
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cori reply on June 23, 2009 12:56 am:
Yeah all i really do is call out timers from dbm in case people miss it, which happens a lot.
I’d let a healer/ranged dps RL over me though
i find it handy to bind vent to mouse thumb button
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Cleaved reply on June 23, 2009 4:26 am:
Yeah, Cori, its not hard to hit the Vent Button; I was just saying that I don’t WANT to hit it constantly
It’s annoying to stay on vent the whole time during a fight, to me anyway.
June 23rd, 2009 at 8:50 am
My place in my guild is the ’sandbox’. At times a term of endearment, as I was brought in to learn the fights before taking the reins myself, and at times it feels derogatory. I feel like my guild leaders don’t see me as a capable enough tank to be more than just a filler for a role in which they’re short a tank.
My place in my guild is that I’m replaceable. I’m in a guild but I don’t feel like I have a place in it.
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June 24th, 2009 at 4:34 am
Great post, really gets me thinking about my place. I see a bunch of ppl in places probably similar to mine; 2nd tank in a casual guild, and I’m fine with that. When you’re pushing 30 with a baby on the way, 5hours a night, 5 nights a week isn’t an option. I’m lucky I found a crew that all share a love of the game, but express it in a casual way. I’m settled knowing that I won’t be a world-first on any raid kill, or even world-hundredth. Place really is everything.
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July 4th, 2009 at 10:18 am
This was one of the most awesome things I’ve ever read in WoW-context.
I was always more of a pvp person during vanilla and BC, but a RL friend lured me into this quite casual raiding guild. This RL friend of mine had lvled his rogue from 1-80 with my warlock.
We both enjoyed our stay in the guild and he got interested in tanking and I had long been interested in healing, so we started lvling alts. I had this priest I had been working for a long time, and he was trying to decide wether to roll a DK or Warrior tank, he went with DK and we only did instances from 55-80, him tanking, me healing as a disc priest.
I have known my friend in real life since we were lil kids at school so we know each other well. Both of us quickly raised in ranks within the guild, and currently both of us are the “main guys” of the guild in officer ranks, him being one of the main tanks, me being one of the main healers. Disc priest goes along well with DK tank, and I always insist to heal him, cos the overall synergy and the synergy in blowing cooldowns is just so natural.
We have both found our places. The guild raids almost every day, but is still quite casual, but still has quite solid progress, currently 11/14 in Ulduar10 (as we lack geared people to go U25 actively)
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