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A while ago, Namthe wrote about a humbling experience healing as an undergeared druid. He talks about first doing 5 mans and it being cake and then doing 25 mans and it being overwhelming. (and challenging and fun) What does it have to do with tanking? Nothing and Everything. His post reminded me of just how important it is to develop your personal skill set in stages and how I recently made the mistake of not doing that.
The Important of Learning in Stages
I’ve talked about leading as a tank in the past, but what I forgot to mention is that we all have to start somewhere. Can you imagine what would have happened to Namthe if he’d not only jumped into healing that 25 man undergeared, but also had to lead it at the same time? (you know kinda like what you and I do when we switch to Fury without having played it in the middle of a raid)
He’d have failed.
But more to the point, he’d have overwhelmed himself so much that he’d have hindered how quickly he could learn to heal a 25 man. (or in my case, DPS) Which is where we find the point.
Which isn’t to go back on what I’ve said in regards to leading 5 mans immediately in order to improve your tanking, but it is to say, don’t lead a 25 man. Or more to the point, don’t expect to hit 80 and assume that because you’re a tank that you’ve got the god given right to lead. Don’t test out a spec that plays dramatically different than you’re used to when you’re the one that’s got to lead the raid. Don’t switch from DPSing and just assume that you’ll magically be able to tank a 25 man and learn to “ride a bike” again. You have to be comfortable in the most overwhelming situation for your character possible and then you’ll be ready to lead.
There’s no one else
And there’s the rub, I suppose. Sometimes that just happens. It happened to me at 70. You’re the leader whether you like it or not. How I survived it was playing, a lot. When you aren’t raiding, you’re mastering your class. Don’t fall into the trap of overwhelming yourself in a raid and then running the easiest instance possible on an off night to de-stress. You don’t have time for that. Do things the hard way on an off night because come game time, you’ll have to do things the hard way and lead.
Simply put, do what you loathe until you don’t.
Yes, it’s stressful for a while, but the alternative is getting into the habit of doing things the wrong way because you never took the time to learn to do things the right way when not leading. A Warrior can tank without using Concussion Blow on a boss, without using Heroic Strike while moving, even without catching every Sword and Board proc, but that still doesn’t change that that Warrior is playing the wrong way.
So, what are you going to do?
- You’re going to do 5 mans especially the ones you hate instead of just expecting to lead some pug raids and “gear up” there.
- You’re going to do 5 mans with your UA spec even if it’s terrible for that before running it in a raid. (I’m talking to you, Vene)
- You’re going to do 5 mans with your tanking spec especially if you haven’t tanked in months before leading.
- You’re going to do 5 mans with your Fury spec before running it in a raid. (I’m talking to you, again, Vene)
July 23rd, 2009 at 8:20 am
Great post, Vene! Leading and tanking at the same time is something that we’ve touched on in the past and it’s a good thing to bring back up, especially with the release of 3.2 coming up and many guilds still downing hard modes in Ulduar.
That said, it’s important as a tank and a raid leader to be able to look at your fellow officers and say, “I can’t lead during this fight, I’m too busy tanking”. I have this problem on Thorim. In other words, know your limits and don’t be afraid to ask for help.
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July 23rd, 2009 at 9:03 am
I was in the “You’re going to do 5 mans especially the ones you hate instead of just expecting to lead some pug raids and “gear up” there.”
This is what I posted on tankspot about leading. I have always played my warrior/tank and hardly get a chance DPS in groups. Where I find leading tricky is when it is my first time through an instance and you are expected to know the fights. I do research the fight but its not like doing it yourself, most guides wont tell you what trash will fear your group (i.e. UP).
I am also a causal player so I am behind the leading progression, where people expect you have done the instance/raid before, I leveled through all the instances with PuGs and automatically got leader. Some people want to rush through an instance but I like to do the first part of the instance slower to get a feel for the players before picking up the pace.
Learning via PuG’s is a real trial by fire vs having a helpful guild to coach/support you up to the lead roll. Some people in PuGs get angry when we wipe and the leader usually gets the blame.
I find being the leader can just involve marking targets and doing /readycheck before each boss, ask if anyone knows the strat, helps to get through a new instance smoothly, also being open for comments (i.e. give a few seconds after marking targets to see if anyone wants them switched).
Small things like that can make it clear what needs to be done.
Now I have finally found a great guild of supportive friends which makes the whole experience so much more enjoyable.
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July 23rd, 2009 at 10:18 am
I’ve never started being Raid Lead and MT for any of my guild runs until recently, even though I’m quite knowledgeable about all the fights because I’ve read on them and ran them multiple times on my healer. It is a total change and it is indeed humbling when you cringe at mistakes the tank makes while you’re safely healing from a distance as opposed to a restricted view of the boss’ crotch or running around picking up the adds. You appreciate the nuances much more. BTW, I switch between Fury/Prot when doing my dailies to keep myself attuned to each spec so its not as awkward when I choose to DPS a fight…..every little bit of practice helps.
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July 23rd, 2009 at 10:48 am
You’re right. Currently, in my quest to do well as a 5 man tank, I hit a wall tanking Old Kingdom on heroic.
Scratch ‘hit a wall’, it’s more like ‘was utterly awful’. Now I might be able to pin a wee bit of it on the vagaries of PUGs, which is the only way I play, but the rest is about me doing a poor job of handling the Adds in the Elder Nadox fight, which has led to about 5 wipes in only two runs of the joint, and a lot of unhappy groupmates.
But I won’t learn a thing if I just go back to the other dungeons I’m more comfortable with and settle for badge farming. I have to go back in there and learn from my mistakes.
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July 23rd, 2009 at 11:05 am
Yes I agree entirely. In Classic I was a mage, and possibly a good one but there’s not that much for a mage to learn besides their own class. I certainly had no clue how to set up groups or what you needed for a sufficient set of buffs.
In BC I’ve played the mage into raiding until I was bored, and then rolled a tank. I was I think a good tank, but only because I paid attention at all the 5-man and raid instances so that I knew most of the pulls and boss mechanics by the time I tried to tank them and lead the team. Also some of the tanks that I was following were seriously good! I’m sure if I had entered Blood Furnace, Karazhan, or ZA for the first time as tank and leader I’d be pretty awful.
Same in LK, I’ve played my mage close to the progression front, and now I feel confident to level my tank and lead a team through the same instances. I’m putting a bit less time in the game overall, but still feel the need to learn as a non-tank before I can lead.
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July 23rd, 2009 at 12:51 pm
I mostly agree…in specific to your final points:
***Quote***
You’re going to do 5 mans especially the ones you hate instead of just expecting to lead some pug raids and “gear up” there.
***
There are exceptions…there is just no reason to do Oculus…it’s terrible and you’re on drakes half the time anyway. Perhaps when they scale with gear in 3.2 I’ll go back.
For your other points, it’s generally good advice. I would never suggest going straight to 25-man ulduar content as dps if you haven’t dpsed in a couple years (Like I hadn’t)…but I don’t know that you need to step all the way down to heroics. I think 10-man naxx is a fine place to do these things…well with a caveat…that being: So long as you have the gear.
I’ve been slowly collecting DPS pieces the whole time going through heroics, then 10-man T7, then 25-man T7 and now some even in 10 and 25 man uldu…such that the 5-mans no longer have anything for me…and EVEN MORE IMPORTANT THAN THAT is that IMO 5-mans in wrath just feel so much different…not just easier…but the encounters are DIFFERENT than Raid content. I don’t know that you’re really buying yourself as much as you think you are.
Also, in many respects it’s easier to carry one person through a 10-man (so long as it isn’t something like, say, 3D) than carry them through a 5-man…so long as it’s not a total pug.
So, I got a question for you Vene:
Sure you threw yourself into the fire as Fury on Vezax and maybe got overwhelmed…but was your DPS actually lower than if you’d been prot? If not, you still helped your raid (and will only help it more with more practice, you’ll get there)…be happy about that.
…and btw…the key to interrupts is putting the Pummel key bind in the same place that Shield Bash was.
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Veneretio reply on July 23, 2009 1:12 pm:
My DPS was significantly higher, but I had to delegate far more responsibility in order to actually be able to play. I was able to lead more DPSing as Prot and lead even more still when I tanked the fight. So it’s questionable if my DPS increase was even worth it since other players had to lead certain parts of the fight they normally would not have and as a result, their DPS may have been impacted.
I agree with you on Oculus. You don’t play your spec thus it’s a waste of time.
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tPaste reply on July 23, 2009 1:27 pm:
Well, I’m a big believer in not having one person be the only person who can do any given thing in a raid. I’m also of the mindset that one person shouldn’t lead all the time (I think it burns them out too quick with all the annoying shit that happens). I’m certain you have great attendance, possibly 100%…but that doesn’t mean family issues or even something as silly as a flat tire couldn’t prevent you from making a raid once.
So, while MAYBE you hurt their dps for that night, what if you can’t be there at all some raid? That experience will be invaluable if in that case.
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Veneretio reply on July 23, 2009 1:50 pm:
Oh definitely agreed people need experience with this type of thing and I do delegate often, (which is why having to do it really wasn’t that bad) but that doesn’t change that not having the option of me leading the majority of it was a failure on my part.
Ya, basically the way our raids have worked the last couple years is I’ve been the primary raid leader and we’ve had a 2nd raid leader that leads in my absence. Outside of that there’s a select few that I constantly delegate a leadership style role to in a fight because they speak correctly and quickly on vent. Occasionally though, I’ll test out new people in those roles.
July 23rd, 2009 at 3:02 pm
The larger issue here, is that people leapfrog content and are missing a skill-set by doing so. The next Patch will prevent people from skipping Heroics as much, but they’ll still Skip N10 and some of the other 10/25 man Raids. Either way, people leapfrogging content leads to a lack of overall experience, whether it’s class-specific or leadership oriented.
Everyone is in a big damn hurry, and they get sloppy. This goes back to my old “faster is slower” philosophy in raids/heroics. You can go too fast, make mistakes and make the run slower. Same goes with learning… you can grow up too fast, skip some lessons and then have it really show how underdeveloped you are in harder content.
New Specs or Offspecs = back to Square 1… if you haven’t done it before, or in a long while.
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July 23rd, 2009 at 5:59 pm
This post is a lot deeper than I thought it was first. It amazes me sometimes how skills learned in WoW (for example, how to follow to learn to lead) can be applied to other areas of life.
I think part of the problem for tanks comes from the fact that there’s an ego-boost attached to it. If you can lead 5 man’s easily, why SHOULDN’T it be just as easy to lead a 25 man?
Because there IS a learning curve, much as we loathe admitting it sometimes. This is some great advice. Well written.
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Grido reply on July 24, 2009 9:01 am:
Leadership is risky and sometimes its all about just putting your hand up for the job because no one else will. If you have a supportive team, a cool head and you can give good directions you should be able to lead even if you don’t know the job.
At first you might not be very good but that’s how you learn from mistakes but that should not put you off leading. This also goes for the outside world as well. I can’t imagine how they did it in classic wow going from 5 man to 40 man raids.
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Chet reply on July 24, 2009 11:51 am:
I learned a week or two ago about the problems of not having a leader, and the main problem I found was that you end up with too many leaders. We had an Ulduar10 run that the leader backed out of, leaving several potential leaders. It went fine until we got to Auriaya trash. We each had a way to take them down (all dps on one side and follow the sphere, split up for the whole fight, and I think another strat was mentioned) and no one could come to a decision.
This is another good reason that you have to be a strong leader, and that usually means like you said, someone has to put their hand up and say “I’ll do it.” If you need guidance, you can always ask, but your decision is the last word, and things get done.
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July 24th, 2009 at 9:01 pm
I love swapping out to Arms occasionally just to experience the simplicity of just bashing on the boss, without the multiple demands of tanking and leading. That said, I’d never give up tanking - I love leading and learning.
My biggest frustration is being in a guild with enough core players for 10 mans but not enough for 25s. PUGs seem to expect so much for so little. We ask our pugs not to ‘ragequit’ when things don’t go well. Even on Naxx 25, many of the fights are challenging and most people who know the fights have no patience to wait for explanations for those who don’t. Its especially agonising on Rasuvious, the gateway to the really good loot. It seems every raid there I’m trying to train up a priest on how to MC tank. Its so foreign to them, they let the boss loose all through the raid, fail to pick it up, don’t keep it in the centre, have targeting issues - because their whole main spec is geared to grid clicking and staying out of the fire. It puts such a dampener on the raid that everything is contingent on these poor guys having to do this weird and unusual thing for 0.01% of their raid playtime. I feel sorry for them. There’s no event that makes me turn my playstyle into a healer ^^.
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July 25th, 2009 at 5:45 pm
Thx a lot Vene, spot on.
Currently in my guild one of my fellow tanks is very touched and offended, because I dare to say that I do not like his careless style, those few small bits he could do right.
It is all fine when you run Uldu10 geared in Naxx25 gear most of the time
Things are outhealed and overdpsed. But then you have the same guy on difficult progression fight and it is not fun, because those minor things cause wipes.
His argument was, “I tank all week long, ask other ppl. everyone is happy about what I do”
Yes, when you tank naxx with overgeared group, you do not have to use debuffs, shouts, trinkets and position boss well and it may work.
for example
Two tanks on Thorim, one in front, one behind boss. :S
and melee running from one side to another :S
Can it work in 10 man, sure…
Try it in a hard mode.
So..
Tank quality… not quantity
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July 28th, 2009 at 3:02 am
I think my biggest mistakes while leading is forgetting to build the groups right. I used to be very attentive to it before so many buffs went raid wide. I’ve also found tanks to typically become the raid leaders in 5 mans because they typically control the pace of the dungeon, and bosses are easier to explain. As the fights get more complex, I’m used to a dps or healer to call out most shots unless the tank has something to add//adjust. I tend to raid lead raids that are on farm// 10 mans where people are more relaxed, for progression raids I’m usually talking in binds with about 5-6 people on vent while the raid is going on. This keeps sanity high, and prevents excessive chatter from distracting the raid as a whole.
On the other hand, one of the most frustrating things in raiding is the people who constantly add their two cents on everything, or try to raid lead when they are not the raid leader. This can be very detrimental to raids because people tend to get confused and frustrated. There are some raids where I will also use binds in vent and shoot my suggestions straight to the raid leader at slow times or if something bad happens and have them say it just so the multi-raid leader problem doesn’t exist.
The other thing I find important that most raid leaders occasionally forget is that when they are explaining the fight to a rogue and 24 other people are waiting, he doesn’t need to explain what the healers will be doing. I find that three word explanations work the best, and if the fight is more complicated, just use more three word descriptions. Some fights are exceptions though.
Ex: Noth - decurse or die // Boss, adds, Boss
(most naxx bosses can be one or two sentences to describe)
I also have used binds in the past to explain to the one person who has never been to X boss before how the fight works while clearing up to them as well. This allows good communication, and doesn’t distract//bore the raid.
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Chet reply on July 31, 2009 11:44 am:
wow, I definitely didn’t know that you could do that in vent. Shows how much I’ve looked into it. I just did some research on vent binds, and I’ll definitely set these up and encourage my guildmates to do so as well if they don’t. It should cut down on some of the unnecessary chatter during boss fights
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Ruphi reply on August 2, 2009 3:21 pm:
Just make sure you turn up the important people so they talk over the chatter that happens in binds.
I find that binds keep me more interested in raiding because we aren’t just focusing on killing the dragon in dead silence.
The other benefits are that there are about 8 people I have on a bind that all joke, and when something goes wrong we all analyze what we did wrong, or ask what we did wrong.
It also allows people to joke a bit and relax and talk about non-wow related things.
The only thing that people call me out on is that I have a ‘big boy’ raid voice when I’m not talking in binds; this helps though because they have an idea when I’m talking in a bind or not.
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August 3rd, 2009 at 11:04 am
I personally enjoyed the, “Or more to the point, don’t expect to hit 80 and assume that because you’re a tank that you’ve got the god given right to lead.” Some tanks aren’t made from the leadership material. That is fine. I don’t expect every tank to be the team captain. What I do expect is for people to know their limits and be man (or woman) enough to realize that before we start a raid and say so. I also recommend trying out other classes. Nothing helps you understand a raid dynamic like knowing other classes capabilities. It is one thing to read/see that a priest can do this, it’s a totally different learning experience when you have done it yourself and know its limits.
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