Loading ...Revelations: Rethinking Glyph of Indomitability
After my Triumph pick order and recent trinket post, an inconsistency came to light (that’s a nice way of saying, I got called out!) thanks to a commentor named Baude. Here’s what he had to say:
Easy pick for all fights involving physical damage (most fights):
Glyph of Indomitability
Black HeartThere’s no better option.
I was kinda wondering where Vene was coming from when dissing the Indomitability, and when I read his article “There’s more to a trinket than Stamina” it makes me wonder even more tbh.
The Glyph of Indomitability is by far the strongest trinket in-game atm, followed by Black Heart.
Now, I don’t agree with everything he has to say here, (ie. about The Black Heart) but what’s he’s absolutely right about is wondering what’s going on. After all, how can I hate on the Brewest trinkets for not being good enough because they don’t have a strong usage and then hate on the trinket with the best usage in the game.
I’m talking, of course, about Glyph of Indomitability. Here’s what I had to say about it before:
Glyph of Indomitability begs the question, how good is armor? I place this item a bit better than Essence of Gossamer which is why it places so far down the list. If you manage to get this far down, you’ll be coupling this trinket with The Black Heart. If you’re a Jewelcrafter then just skip this piece and use a Monarch Crab instead.
The above reads like I glazed right over the trinket’s usage when I wrote it and the reality is, I did just that. It’s also pretty clear that I’ve forgot to factor in just how strong Armor is when you’ve got a lot more Health than Armor.
So, where are we now?
I’ve moved Glyph of Indomitability up considerably on the Emblem of Triumph pick order. The Armor it provides puts it on a similar level of passive survivability to that of Heart of Iron. The clearly better usage puts it over the top. Basically, once I manage to wrangle up the badges you’ll see me coupling it with Heart of Iron for many fights and with Juggernaut’s Vitality (Satrina’s Impeding Scarab for you alliance folk) for many others.
The Beauty of running a Website
It’s funny that when I set out doing this whole thing, I wanted to share what I had learned and in doing so help you avoid making mistakes. Little did I know that it would all come full circle and you guys would be helping me too. Thanks to you, I’m always under the microscope. Thanks to you, I triple check what I have to say before saying it. Thanks to you, I correct what I say when what I’ve said wasn’t right.
Thanks. 
September 27th, 2009 at 12:50 am
Great post Vene. Not everyone has it right 100% of the time, I too glanced over that trinket and didn’t really place much weight in it.
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September 27th, 2009 at 3:56 am
So this means I have to start saving for the trinket anyways? Argh, I thought I was settled with my Monarch Crab
I do agree though, armor is underrated by far, and 1800 armor (and if you have the armor threat talent; Armored to the Teeth, giving threat aswell!) with a badass ‘ohshit’ button is definately one I’d take over for example the ranged one for 25 triumph. This item does always stay interesting because it’s so cheap.. oh well, 8/50; getting there!
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September 27th, 2009 at 9:42 am
I still don’t understand why everyone puts the Black Heart so far down on their list. 7k armor proc for 10 seconds is essentially like putting on another shield for 10 seconds and reducing all physical damage by like 4%. I realize everyone is busy stacking stamina to the extremes but it just doesn’t seem like it is truly taking the proc effect into account. The BiS pants from Ulduar were not super hardmode pants, they were ones with 800 more armor than the other options. This 800 armor gave it more survivability than alot of the ilevel 245 T9 pants depending on which gearset you were setting it up for. The Black Heart still gives a ton of survivability in stamina (clearly not as much as others, but it is still there), and then gives you 20 seconds of every minute (roughly) of having an additional 7k armor. It is pure gold for bosses that do physical damage and the only downside is that you can’t time the proc to go off when you want it to. The black heart and Juggernaut’s Vitality will reign supreme on physical bosses for me personally.
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September 27th, 2009 at 11:01 am
So which shoud i be coupling, black heart and indomitability or indomitability and heart of iron?
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September 27th, 2009 at 1:41 pm
Hey Vene,
Never thought I’d be able to give something back to you for all the nice advice I picked up from this site.
Happy I could!
/Baude
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September 27th, 2009 at 1:50 pm
I’ve been reading your blog for a long time now. This time I have to leave a comment concerning the trinkets.
The Glyph of Indomitability was my 2nd item I bought via Emblems. I was the opinion, its provided armor plus the on-use-effect make the trinket to a must-have. However, some raids later I regretted the buy. Most of the time I wear the Black Heart with the Heart of Iron to maximize my EH. (recalculate it, if you like, but the EH of both “hearts” is superior to ex. Heart of Iron & Glyph or Black Heart & Glyph — given you have 27k Armor and 37k hp available)
My calculation so far: while maximizing EH, you have to weight up stamina about 12 times as high as armor for the same amount of EH. So the Glyph should have about 1950 Armor, which it has not.
Since there is currently no fight that mainly consists of physical damage (bleeding is not physical in that way), I don’t see a reason to equip the Glyph what is quite sad.
Either I maximize my HP pool (mimiron hm for ex.), my threat output (dps races) or my EH (all the other situations).
Should I instead decide whether to max out my _Armor_ or HP pool, in the futute? Not thinking about EH? Cause this really makes me doubt about EH. What is it good for if not a nice mixed fight with some physical pounding paired with a few magic nukes?
tl;dr: got the glyph, dunno in which fight i should use it, cause it provides less EH than both hearts
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Furiat/Vege reply on September 28, 2009 1:25 am:
Afair Gormok’s Impale is physical and it’s damage is mitigated by armor. Types of fights you’d use it? I’d say Beasts are still the best use of it (Gormok’s and Icehowl’s damage on tank is physical only). Anub’s adds too (probably, paired with avoidance/sbr trinket), even Anub alone (Glyph paired with Satrina’s or one of Hearts). Algalon comes to my mind too (if you have enough hp and cds to survive Big Bangs).
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September 27th, 2009 at 7:11 pm
ARGHH.
Why does blizz hate on the 10 man raiders..
/sigh
Is there an eqv to Heart Of Iron and Jugg’s Vitality for 10 manners?
That aside, and based upon the last comment….
Is there a time for armour, a time for HP, and a time for EH? Particularly now that we routinely run around with 30k+ hp and 25k+ armour? There aren’t anymore one shoting physical or magical bosses anymore are there? And the only fight I can think of that is so physical heavy it makes grown tanks weep is Gormok on Heroic. Therefore should we now just be building best EH possible?
(Bring back avoidance tanking!)
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Veneretio reply on September 27, 2009 10:42 pm:
10 man equivalent = Royal Seal of King Llane (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=46021) It drops off of Yogg10. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with The Black Heart. It’s a great trinket too.
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Bhig reply on September 28, 2009 12:57 pm:
Ok.
I’ll admit I was lazy and didn’t look up trinks before posting (work makes me lazy! Plus most sites are blocked.). But you’ve gotta admit, ToC on normal is a whole lot easier than Yogg.
For a 10 manner what would be your two picks of general purpose trinks?
Royal seal/Glyph?
Royal seal/Black heart?
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September 27th, 2009 at 9:00 pm
Now that you can purchase orbs with badges imo, you should take yet another look at your “Emblem of Triumph Pick Order” post and put where you feel the crafted pieces fit in with everything else.
I feel the bracers are very strong, but I’m just not sure about that chest piece and definitely would like your take.
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Furiat/Vege reply on September 28, 2009 1:38 am:
If you can clear 10man heroic ToC then crafts are obsolete imo. For bracers you have Dreadscale Armguards:
http://www.wowhead.com/?compare=47918;47570
More parry, which isn’t bad if you’re already loaded with dodge. And a blue socket.
Chest have two other similar options: T9,5 and Anub 10man hard:
http://www.wowhead.com/?compare=47591;47964;48450
Crafted one gives one socket more and has less points “wasted” on Strength, but all three are comparable imo. And you’ll probably want Towering Monstrosity anyway.
So while still being good, ToC’s craftables aren’t so shiny as earlier ones (ol’ good belt being the most obvious example)
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tPaste reply on September 28, 2009 3:44 am:
I agree the hardmode loot is better optimized generally, that is if you get lucky enough to see them drop. Haven’t seen the bracers in at least 4 clears…besides Vene’s rank list doesn’t make the assumption that you can clear heroic-10.
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Furiat/Vege reply on September 28, 2009 4:04 am:
In that case I’d never think about not crafting them. But you can buy all needed mats, so I don’t think rank list is good place for them.
tPaste reply on September 28, 2009 12:30 pm:
*sigh*
Many tanks simply can’t afford these orbs. I refer you to an earlier post by vene:
http://www.tankingtips.com/2009/07/27/the-upgrade-that-15-of-you-cant-even-afford/
That was a post about an investment of a simple 500g, and according to the poll lots couldn’t swing it, each orb (depending on your server) is going to cost you at least that. At least you can generally farm the other mats.
The rank list IS a good place for them because the orbs are far and away the most expensive portion of the pieces.
Not to mention Vene, in the past, has compared crafted items to badge items:
http://www.tankingtips.com/2009/06/05/you-get-what-you-pay-for/
The badge list is a good place for these items.
September 28th, 2009 at 2:52 am
Hmmm. Interesting. I currently wear Black Heart and Royal Seal. I’d written of the Glyph as a druid thing. Now I may have to get it in place of the pants I was saving for. Though I don’t know which trinket I’d replace, to be honest - or if I would typically replace either. I mean; does the Glyph’s use beat out the Seal’s? Does the fact it’s on use beat the superior armor of the Black Heart’s random proc? Questions, questions.
Like Magnuss above, I’ve always put a lot of stock in armor and I rate the Black Heart’s proc just as he does; my gloves have the TBC leatherworker re-inforcements and I won’t enchant my cloak with anything else. So this is making me think, hard. I’m also now starting to regret passing Fervor of the Frostborn from this weekend’s heroic…
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Namthe reply on September 28, 2009 5:25 am:
Fervour of the Frostborn isn’t a particularly great trinket - its on-use is rather backward, really. Each time you get hit, you gain a little more armour. In a (normal) boss situation you’re going to be hit once every 2.4 seconds at *most*, if you’re keeping Thunder Clap up. That means you’ll only see the maximum benefit for about 8 seconds before it drops off again.
When you factor in avoidance, you’re either likely to only hit the max armour value just before the buff drops off or not at all. In an aoe-tanking situation, it might make more sense, or with a dual-wirlding boss, but if you’re not getting hit extremely frequently it’s not likely to be worth it.
I have the Heroic version of FotF, but I’ve yet to find a really good place to use it. Onyxia’s whelps seem about the only one so far.
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September 28th, 2009 at 9:24 am
now after i read all the responses, i’d like to ask u : where would u place a trinket from onyxia, which is a head quest reward. that gives u a very healthy dose of defense, parry, heals u automatically, and gives u a little fire resistance?
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Gravelayar reply on September 28, 2009 10:19 am:
I just got the quest reward trinket also and am wondering the same thing. http://www.wowhead.com/?item=49487
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Drae reply on September 28, 2009 2:45 pm:
Personally I feel the onyxia trinket is very specialized.
There are very few scenarios where the passive health generation is useful.
Avoidance is very rarely better then stamina.
The only way I would use this trinket is if I felt I could generate more stam then my current stam trinket by swapping defense out of my other gear. (wont happen with juggernauts, or even brewfest or heart of iron)
Personally I find even the repelling charge more appealing then the ony trinket.
I’d love to be proven wrong, but afaik that trinket was crap in vanilla, and it’s crap now.
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urkagan reply on September 29, 2009 12:56 pm:
personally, the item with those stats would never be a CRAP in my book. id still wanna hear from vene, i value her opinion.
Veneretio reply on September 29, 2009 1:37 pm:
Her?
Bhig reply on September 29, 2009 2:09 pm:
*An icy chill descends upon the room*
Personally. I think the Ony trink will end up in my “generally useless” pile, but I must say I love the concept of passive health regen.
I wish they’d put it in the game in a serious manner. Make it a useful alternative. In just about every other RPG I’ve played the health regen items/powers are really powerful. I found HP5 was kinda useful while levelling the first 30-40 levels in WoW on my warrior… then it fell to the wayside.
urkagan reply on September 30, 2009 5:28 am:
his
Shadamehr reply on September 29, 2009 1:46 am:
Avoidance doesn’t really save healer mana at all because you’re getting spammed, not healed reactively.
At least for me, Avoidance clickies shine when you’ve exhausted your other options. Like; Shield Wall is on CD, Last Stand is too, uh oh your health bar just dropped to 20%…hitting an avoidance clicky at times like these can buy your healers a second or two of reaction time to land that big heal you need. Avoidance clickies are basically extra “oh crap” buttons.
Though this type of scenario should be rare, it can happen (memories of Gruul at 16 growth stacks with Moroes Lucky Pocketwatch!)
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September 28th, 2009 at 10:40 am
I’d like to hear what you more experienced tanks have to say on this argument. When you say a powerful on use avoidance effect I usually get skeptical. If i want a save my ass CD then an extra 5% avoidance (even 10%) doesn’t mean anything to me. The way I look at it is this : Me and a dude go into a betting game. We each put up 25g and he says on a roll of 1-10 you get my gold, on 11 to 100 i get your gold. I’d tell him to take his game and shove it. However if it was an armor proc, that 2% reduction in damage could mean the difference between death or not. So consequently I dont value avoidance procs except for saving my healers mana.
Am i off the reservation? Sorry if this isn’t quite the right post
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marklar reply on September 28, 2009 3:52 pm:
the great thing about avoidance procs is not just 5% (or 13%) more avoidance - it’s the SIGNIFICANTLY reduced chance of taking back-to-back hits, and even more reduced chance of taking back-to-back-to-back hits, etc.
you won’t really notice it unless you’re tanking stuff that can kill you very quickly - i always use a trinket proc just as i taunt gormok in heroic TOC, for example.
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Brugamenn reply on September 28, 2009 4:00 pm:
It’s always going to be situational, but in your roll the dice scenario, you have to remember you were already in the game. really your buddy should have been offering you an additional 10% chance to win the gold. static health usually beats avoidance trinkets, but there are situations where that one extra miss a trinket use gets you means a heal hits.
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Ipick reply on September 28, 2009 6:22 pm:
5% of the time they work everytime.
The problem with avoidance on use trinkets is that you often don’t know whether it was the one use effect that caused the dodge that saved you or if was just part of your passive avoidance.
What I like to do is keep of track of my death overkills and get a general feeling of whats causing the problem. If healers are missing heals and I’m dying by a ton of health than the avoidance on use trinket is probably a better, since it will at least save me 3-7% of the time. If the healers ae having trouble keeping up with the damage in certain times (low overkills ) than the EH trinket without the on use maybe better in that scenario.
Not a perfect science by any means but I think it helps bring things into perspective.
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Orcstar reply on October 3, 2009 8:09 pm:
50% avoidance versus 60% avoidance.
ok here goes, with 50% avoidance you’ve got a 50% chance to be hit.
ok 2 hits 0.5*0.5=0.25 you’ve got a 25% chance to be hit 2 times in a row.
3 hits 0.5*0.5*0.5=0.125 you’ve got a 12.5% chance to be hit 3 times in a row.
With 60% avoidance you’ve got a 40% chance to be hit.
ok 2 hits 0.4*0.4=0.16 you’ve got a 16% chance to be hit 2 times in a row.
3 hits 0.4*0.4*0.4=0.064 you’ve got a 6.4% chance to be hit 3 times in a row.
The chance to be hit 3 times in a row with 60% is half the chance to be hit 3 times in a row with 50%
Like the poster above said: avoidance is not about avoiding that one dangerous hit. It’s about avoiding bad stuff in a row.
Try an avoidance heavy set on Kologarn, you’ll be surprised.
(My motto: gear for the encounter.)
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September 30th, 2009 at 2:39 am
/fanboi
Juggernauts Vitality should be called Vene’s Vitality
/endfanboi
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September 30th, 2009 at 11:15 am
HI all, iam using royal seal and black hearth, i have monarch crab in bank and will pick glyph soon. So what the best combination vene, i saw cider using black hearth with glyph and i know that he have the royal seal too.
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September 30th, 2009 at 11:22 am
Purified Onyxia Blood Talisman
get the highest tankpoints out there.
I know tankpoints isnt everything- but its a good indication that the trinket has the math to be the best trinket around.
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September 30th, 2009 at 11:24 am
Besides i have another doubt and its about rings, sry if this isn´t the right post to question this. I using platinum band of aesir whith Clutch of Fortification, i have in bank seal of ulduar, Mark of the Relentless
and Signet of Winter
Platinum give more avoidance with extra boost on expertise and for me looks like a good balanced ring, better than the others to coupling with Clutch, what do u think Master vene … cya all.
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October 7th, 2009 at 4:38 pm
I did some napkin maths just to see if the 4set bonus could compete against the armor trinket, so that I could keep 2 stam trinket and still have decent HP. Results show that it’s pretty much equivalent for fast hitters (too few fast hitters anyway), but for slow hitters the trinket will still give better results.
If you pug or if you are part of an average raiding guild you may be too often victim of the highest-HP-tank-will-MT-this-as-usual kind of thing. This is somewhat frustrating and tends to make warrior tanking viable for people that runs with people who knows more than just the HP.
And unfortunately, there is a bunch of encounter where HP really matters more than the rest.
I hope this will change with the next raid, but 3.2 is definitely not the most friendly raid for warriors tank.
The most frustrating part of the story is that gear won’t help it because even with the highest gear level, warrior will still be behind druids and palys with equivalent gear. It’s not hard to get into groups and tank, it’s hard to be MT.
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