Loading ...DPS > TPS. Why nothing and something has changed.
WarTotem’s DPS/TPS spreadsheet has been receiving some attention as of late leading to some interesting advice and getting some tanks to start testing that advice.
As I commented on Kadomi’s post, I was skeptical. I’m not anymore.
What did I do?
I just used the spreadsheet. I got the same information. However, I interpreted the results differently. Yes, Devastate is a lot better than Revenge, Concussion Blow and Shockwave for threat.
But.
Devastate is not better than Revenge, Concussion Blow and Shockwave for damage.
If.
You have 2 points in Improved Revenge.
Put 2 points in Improved Revenge
As long as you do this, even if you’re using both the T8 and T9 2-piece bonuses simultaneously, Revenge is still more damage with 2 points in Improved Revenge. Even if you’re using a 2.00 speed weapon. So, for your “threat” build, Revenge is still a higher priority than Devastate.
However, if you don’t have any points in Improved Revenge and you have either the T8 or the T9 2-piece bonus then Revenge becomes less damage than Devastate. Which means that for those of us that are well-geared and running Survival-oriented builds, Devastate has surpassed Revenge in today’s near infinite rage environment.
It’s all about Damage, isn’t it?
Most of the time, yes, which is why you should read through the above carefully and see how your spec plays. There are some fights though where Threat is still relevant. Fights like Malygos and Hodir where strong DPS can challenge you even surpass you. If you’re holding anyone back, Devastate is unquestionably the better choice.
The Bottom Line
DPS is only better than TPS as long as your TPS is not holding anyone back. Sometimes, Revenge is going to be the right choice. Sometimes, Devastate is going to be the right choice. It’s up to you to learn when.
October 20th, 2009 at 12:52 pm
Great post. Really interesting, thanks.
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October 20th, 2009 at 1:03 pm
Do you think it the Devastate Glyph is a must have now?
According to this spread sheet the TPS is better, but the Glyph only puts two stacks of sunder instead of one, but once it hits 5 stacks would it no longer add threat? At the start it would give you a nice spike threat but not in the long run.
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Veneretio reply on October 20, 2009 1:06 pm:
The Devastate glyph does still give you extra threat even once you’re at 5 sunders. That said, it’s just threat, so no I don’t think it’s a must-have. As the post says, DPS > TPS. Which isn’t to say that the Devastate glyph is bad, it certainly isn’t.
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Naka reply on October 21, 2009 9:55 am:
Actually, the Devastate Glyph does not only improve threat, but also damage. Not your personal damage, but raid damage.
At least, in most situations and if you have a sufficient number of melees.
There is no glyph that i would consider a must-have for a warrior tank atm, but I personally consider the Devastate Glyph the most important one currently.
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Orla reply on October 21, 2009 10:16 am:
not counting glyph of blocking?
Drae reply on October 21, 2009 1:46 pm:
Glyph of devastate provides no damage increase for the individual warrior, and the increase in raid damage is limited to the 3s (GCD) of one extra sunder stack, it does not allow you to stack more sunders, so the damage increase, even across the whole raid, is very minimal.
Personally I find glyph of blocking extremely lackluster. Blocking does however increase both defensive stats and offensive ones, which is rare for a glyph. Even still I find very few situations (trash tanking, anub adds) where I select the glyph of blocking over any other glyph.
October 20th, 2009 at 2:02 pm
TPS (below threat ceiling) > DPS > TPS (above threat ceiling)
…but none of that matters if you are dead.
I’d prefer to pick up a point or two more defensively than to spec into imp revenge. Imp spell reflect, or shield spec are more attractive imo.
Only after you have done everything in your power to stay alive and ahead on threat, should you then move to optimizing dps (referring to progression… it is always fun to max out dps in farm content).
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October 20th, 2009 at 2:30 pm
i was making this same arguement in a wowhead thread, and i seemed to be the only one choosing dps > tps (assuming no threat cap).
therefore, i approve this message
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October 20th, 2009 at 2:48 pm
Thanks for testing. I know you were dubious about my post, but I really only looked at it from a TPS point of view. I actually still use Revenge a lot whenever threat is of no concern. However, the kind of content I am doing, I have to resort to Devastate spam quite a bit. We had our first shot at Yogg-Saron this week, and I managed to lose aggro to trigger-happy DPS on Guardians in P1, just when they were almost ferried to Sara by me. That was a sad sad tanking moment.
I’ll add a link to this post from mine as enlightening counter.
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hbombs reply on October 23, 2009 9:01 am:
this scenario I wouldn’t worry about. dps who pull adds off you while you are kiting are.. simply bad. They will learn when they get tired of wiping on yogg saron.
@ vene. this is a really good post. I have been away from the game for a while and will be for a while longer.. but I realize now when I do come back I will have to make sure I even have the “basics” down properly
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October 20th, 2009 at 2:57 pm
Where would these two points be put to better use? Two more points in Shield Specialization? Improved Shield Specialization?
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Haam reply on October 20, 2009 2:57 pm:
I of course meant Improved Spell Reflection. d’oh
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raquoon reply on October 21, 2009 5:23 am:
Improved Spell Reflection is a waste in all Wrath raids except for EoE. Even then it had limited use in phase two of the fight.
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Veneretio reply on October 21, 2009 3:46 pm:
Incorrect. Imp Spell Reflect’s 4% miss chance it offers makes it still valuable as a survival talent. The reflect portion is not the primary reason to take the talent.
Drae reply on October 21, 2009 4:32 pm:
Unfortunately it is avoidance and not Magical EH. Wouldn’t it be nice if it was like 4% reduced damage from magical sources!?
/sign
marklar reply on October 22, 2009 1:21 pm:
4% miss chance of what? help me out with some spells that can’t be interrupted that would be affected by this miss chance…
Sephirawth reply on October 22, 2009 2:59 pm:
There are several spells that cannot be interrupted but the one that sticks out are (whatever)bolts that various bosses use. Plus in a perfect world someone would get every possible interrupt but we all know that does not happen.
marklar reply on October 23, 2009 4:30 pm:
specifics!
or i’m not buying
Libicocco reply on October 23, 2009 10:27 am:
Although this does not at all refute the basic claim that DPS > TPS under some circumstances, in this case you can have at least some of your cake and eat it too.
If you had points in a DPS/TPS talent, you can easily put them in another DPS/TPS talent that you don’t have maxxed out, say perhaps Cruelty.
Plugging my so-so warrior’s (ilvl219-232, 2pcT9) numbers into said spreadsheet spits out that a “base” build that doesn’t use revenge or have cruelty offers 2975DPS/7315TPS. A more traditional build that uses revenge gives me 88 more DPS at the cost of 183 TPS, while a Revengeless build that has 2 points in Cruelty gives me 123 more TPS than the base, and 59 more DPS.
At least for my personal numbers that may not be reflected in those of more geared warriors, you can recoup 2/3 of the apparent DPS loss of a Revengeless build just by reinvesting the points in Cruelty, with yet further gain in TPS.
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October 20th, 2009 at 6:19 pm
Hooray! My boring and napkin math came to the correct assumptions!
Without the Devastate Glyph is Devastate still more TPS than Revenge/Concussion Blow/Shockwave? As I understand it, the Devastate glyph doubles the threat applied from our AP (from 5% AP to 10%).
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October 20th, 2009 at 10:40 pm
I would guess that the devastate glyph would just double the static threat value of devastate, so it wouldn’t be a huge amount. So basically what I get out of this is, if you take 2 points out of imp revenge it isn’t worth using anymore, assuming you have a set bonus for devastate. What about for threat/rage conversion I would assume revenge is higher, since it costs like 2 rage, I mean there are a handful of fights where rage is a bit of an issue, jaraxus comes to mind, especially if your doing the interrupts on him.
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October 20th, 2009 at 11:09 pm
I don’t want to derail this into a “Imp Revenge or No?” thread, but I have decided it that I rely on Imp Rev quite a bit. Well, rely is a strong word, but I find it extremely hand, and not just for extra damage.
Iron Council, Faction Champs, and Anub phase 2 (especially heroic) all come immediately to mind in terms of “fights in which it is useful to stun things.” Personally I like all the “extra” tricks and tools I can possibly have at my disposal over something like imp spell reflection. (On a semi-related note, someone should make a list of all reflect-able spells, because it seems like that ability is extremely limited in usefulness.)
In short: don’t discount the usefulness of stuns.
PS: I just realized something I should definitely point out. I run almost exclusively 10 mans, and we usually don’t have a rogue. So it’s often my job to keep healers locked down during Champs (server first and ONLY Resilience Will Fix It (10) right here, pew pew pew), to interrupt the dwarf in IC, etc. I guess this doesn’t apply so much if you’re a 25 man tank and have plenty of other options for stuns and interrupts.
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Bhig reply on October 21, 2009 1:42 pm:
I think a lot of people tank Imp Spell Ref for the magic damage reduction.
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Bhig reply on October 21, 2009 1:44 pm:
Man.. tank on the brain.. That should read TAKE Imp Spell Ref
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Sephirawth reply on October 22, 2009 9:05 am:
Gratz on that achivement, its a toughie.
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October 21st, 2009 at 5:26 am
When I had to find 3 points to put in shield spec for anub tanking without resorting to destroying my offspec, I took 2 out of imp. revenge and 1 from Focused Rage (for the record I much prefer focus rage s. Shield spec). I haven’t bothered to change the spec yet, I can definitely live with out imp. revenge TPS wise.
Single target damage-wise my experiences concur with what Vene’s posted; damage goes down if your not weaving in S.W., C.B. and Imp. revenge.
Basically this means you can hold aggro by spamming devastate, but you won’t bring nearly as much to your raid if your not maintaining the damage rotation.
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October 21st, 2009 at 7:53 am
That begs the question tho… if you have no points in imp revenge are you then better off (in terms of dps) to rock both the two piece t8 and t9 bonuses and a slower weapon? What encounters would you want to consider doing that on without getting hosed via the fewer heroic strikes?
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Drae reply on October 21, 2009 1:54 pm:
The best way to answer this question is to check the spreadsheet for yourself. It depends on you heroic strike conversion rate, your spec, I think your AP, and weapon damage among other factors.
The thread on tankspot has some general conclusions, you may also find your answer there.
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Uthamog reply on October 23, 2009 5:36 am:
This is the way I tank, 2 T9 and 2 T8.5 without Imp. revenge and slow weapon. My DPS is always around 1300, which is consistent with tools like rawr. I do not feel I get hosed, but I would like to contribute more to the overall raid DPS.
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October 21st, 2009 at 9:49 am
What I’d like to see sometime is a discussion on the merits of Executioner for TPS. It seems to have fallen out of favour as far as tanking’s concerned. I realise there are better options for survivability, but how about threat?
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October 21st, 2009 at 12:29 pm
Ran revengeless last night, did 3k dps/8k tps on Jaraxxus even with moments of rage starvation. The 2 points went into shield spec.
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Baude reply on October 26, 2009 3:13 am:
3K as Prot MT on Jaraxxus?
Armory link? Makes me curious.
Cheers
Baude
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October 22nd, 2009 at 4:28 pm
Another thing to concider is rage per tps and rage per dps. Here revenge comes out very formadable. Infinate rage is common, but not always a fact. Very good post though!
In regards to the devastate glyph some argued you save 2 gcds from taking it.. Sure, this can be the case but normally at the moment in progress raiding you run with quite low hit-rating and you also have quite a few events have multiple mobs.
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Drae reply on October 23, 2009 5:33 am:
If you did have a low chance to “land your attack” (I wont comment on the value of hit rating and expertise and the chance to land your attacks here, as it is tangent to the conversation) or multiple mobs, the glyphs value doesn’t go down, as your still gonna take fewer GCD’s to apply full sunders. Missing doesn’t affect the increased effectiveness the glyph affords. It still increases your TPS / Rage (not the other way around, rage per TPS would be a tiny decimal, that’s like saying hours / mile)
That comment was in regards to the minimal raid DPS increase afforded by having one or two extra sunder applications earlier in the encounter.
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October 23rd, 2009 at 9:24 am
I have to wonder if I’m filling in the spreadsheet wrong, because I’m seeing SW, SS and CB higher threat than Devastate, even if I enable the glyph and both 2pc bonuses.
Just to give you where I’m coming from, I usually tank for my guild’s alt/leftover mains toc 10 and 25 runs (my tank is my alt). I know I’m not the best tank in the world and my focus is on TPS just so I’m sure I don’t lose aggro to some of our better geared mains who may have missed our main run earlier in the week.
I’m very interested in having accurate threat values for our abilities (especially customized to my present stats) and not understanding why mine seem to be coming up so different.
If I plug Vene’s stats in I get results similar to mine (only better of course). So while I see the conclusion that Devastate is better for DPS, I don’t see it being better for threat, much less “a lot better” as this article states.
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Veneretio reply on October 23, 2009 6:24 pm:
The point of the post is that it’s only talking about DPS. Devastate is better than Revenge for TPS.
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Rhodry reply on October 26, 2009 5:23 am:
I understand that Vene, but respectfully, when your post also says “Yes, Devastate is a lot better than Revenge, Concussion Blow and Shockwave for threat.” it causes confusion to anyone using the tool, like me, and trying to reconcile the results with your statements. Don’t get me wrong, I live by your tanking philosophies. So when I see something incongruous it bothers me more than if you were just some off the cuff nobody that I don’t pay attention to.
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October 23rd, 2009 at 9:30 am
Sorry, misspoke there at the end, meant Revenge is better than Devastate for dps.
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October 30th, 2009 at 3:05 pm
I have similar results to Rhodry. In my progression set Revenge is better then Devastate both damage and threat wise.
Devastate:
dmg: 2372
threat: 6025
Revenge:
dmg: 2881
threat: 6190
Link to armory: http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Shattered+Halls&n=Entiia
I will try to log out in this set for few days. I am using pretty Dev unfriendly setup: no 2xT9, no 2xT8, no Dev glyph, Improved Rev 2/2, fast weapon (1.5s) (not mainspec tank anymore so hard to get trophies). So I am wondering if its my gear setup fault, which would mean that everyone should run spreadsheet for their own to see if Rev or Dev is better or am I misinterpreting results/giving wrong parameters.
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January 26th, 2010 at 1:42 am
Ah, and yet another news incoming, 3.3.2:
Devastate: Damage is increased to 120% (Up from 100%)
I’m curious if it will change anything. Don’t think we will start favouring slow weapons now (as you’ve wrote many times, Heroic Strike counts for too much tps/dps), but it will it be possible to forget about revenge in terms of dps?
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Veneretio reply on January 26, 2010 3:03 am:
I don’t think Slow weapons are ahead yet, but I’m pretty sure that we’ll be dropping revenge if this goes live.
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