TankingTips.com

156 Responses to “Back to Basics: I’m 80, now what?”

1. FOXmenot Says:
   October 25th, 2009 at 1:33 am

   Wow, Vene! Great post as always. I’m a long time reader, first time post here. As far as I can see, u would suggest an armor enchant for glove instead of +2% threat. It’s a new way of looking at things for me, really. I always thought that 2% threat is the way to go here. By the way, I think CoS drake run will be a great place for new tank to learn speed pull as well as the most rocking ability of a tank, the “Chain pulling”!
   Keep up the great job, Vene. Always looking forward for more from you

   [Reply]

   Grido reply on October 26, 2009 10:17 am:

   Great Post! I will tweak my spec and enchants tonight after reading this.

   I agree CoS is great for AoE tanking and chain pulling. I would also say Heroic Gundrak for the Snake boss and you can also get a nice shoulder piece for a new 80 (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37635) until H ToC shoulders drop.

   [Reply]

   branimir reply on October 26, 2009 11:36 am:

   Full disclosure: i’m a caster

   I find that dtk is another great speed pulling instance. Had a tank drag a group through there at top speed. There’s a little lull at novos as his 4 minions come out, but other than that it’s straight pulls from start to finish. As Vene suggested in another thread too, he never let us get back to full mana so it was a bit of challenge for us too which made it all the more fun.

   [Reply]

2. Fiasco Says:
   October 25th, 2009 at 2:22 am

   Cheers dude, just hit 80 and this will be quite useful in showing what kind of path I need to take

   [Reply]

3. Roff Says:
   October 25th, 2009 at 5:13 am

   1 thing tho, whatabout 18stam on shield, is that completely removed from you list?

   [Reply]

   Veneretio reply on October 25, 2009 10:53 am:

   I had initially thought it should not be there, but your comment made be rethink my original thought process to which I couldn’t determine why I had left it out in the first place. Good catch!

   [Reply]

4. Aethor Says:
   October 25th, 2009 at 7:18 am

   For a glove enchant 20 hit or 15 expertise look much more tempting then plain armor, especially when your blue/early epic gear is low on these.

   A

   [Reply]

   Veneretio reply on October 25, 2009 10:54 am:

   The section on “My Hit and Expertise are really low though!” covers that point.

   [Reply]

5. Thox Says:
   October 25th, 2009 at 7:19 am

   I have one other suggestion for the 4mob/2 way split pull in Violet Hold. I tend to run for the ones furthest from the entrance (and therefore also furthest from my group) and demo shout them, then charge to the other 2 as they head towards the door and Thunderclap them. This seems to get them to group together really well, especially if the DPS hold off attacking the demo’d pair till you’ve got them all together.

   [Reply]

   Drae reply on October 26, 2009 7:52 am:

   Demo shout is such a pitiful amount of threat (iirc 63 split among all the mobs it’s applied to) that even a HoT on a DPS can pull aggro if it heals for ~300 hp. I’d use the first method Vene outlines. Another way to handle it is to stand at the north end by the broken rocks, cleave + devastate / Shield slam the first two and then charge + TC the southern ones charging the door. If you want to make it fancy intervene the melee that’s more then likely already beating on the northern mobs.

   [Reply]

   Brugamenn reply on October 26, 2009 8:07 am:

   iirc? seen it several times can’t for the life of me figure out what it means. I am sure i will know when you tell me but lost at the moment.

   [Reply]

   Furiat/Vege reply on October 26, 2009 8:21 am:

   it’s “if I remember correctly”.

   Caloth reply on October 26, 2009 8:27 am:

   iirc means “If I Recall Correctly”, someone might sat it’s Remember though.

   Thox reply on October 26, 2009 10:07 am:

   I know demo shout’s threat is low, but this method does seem to work for me, and means I usually grab both pairs without anyone getting beat on. I guess its just a case of whatever works for you.

   [Reply]

   Bhig reply on October 26, 2009 2:28 pm:

   I find demo works in a pinch since the mobs ran straight for the door unless someone threats them. So even a pitiful 63/split works to stop them heading to the door.

   Sephirawth reply on October 27, 2009 8:16 am:

   I have always just waited at the door……

   [Reply]

   Cleaved reply on October 27, 2009 11:33 pm:

   Charge + Shockwave closest mobs, turn and Heroic Throw caster in group headed for door as you Intercept towards them and TClap. Intervene back to other group, or just run to a midway point bewteen them. If you lose threat on 1-2 mobs, use Taunt on one and Charge the other (it should be back off CD by now). Hectic, but not hard to manage, especially if your DPS/Heals lay off for .05 seconds. I never have any issues, and it honestly took me a bit to think about how I do this pull, because it is all reflex to me and I may not do it the same every time. Long as the mobs don’t hit anyone but you: Win.

   As a Pally, drop consecrate at bottom of rocky area, skip and hop to a point within Avenger Shield range and pop other group headed for door, run back into middle, HoR and laugh at how easy it all is.

   I’ll still take my Warrior’s mobility over AOE Threat /faceroll though, any day.

   Vilhelmriker (Lothar Server) reply on October 28, 2009 7:47 am:

   personally when I see that portal come up I try to get as close to it as possible. if I can TC and snag all 4, my job is done, and I get to Multi-tanking.

   [Reply]

   Cleaved reply on October 28, 2009 1:29 pm:

   Yeah, the methods discussed above are only if the portal is on the far side of the previous portal and there is no way to get there in time. If DPS is fast enough (i.e. not a PuG), then you can make it there even from the other side of the room.

   [Reply]

   Asterix reply on October 29, 2009 11:43 am:

   “and there is no way to get there in time.”

   [Swiftness Potion] FTW! If I can’t already be at the portal, that potion will get me there.

   Meta reply on October 30, 2009 5:11 am:

   In VH after every portal I will run towards this troublesome one in case of a spawn. Granted if the dps is shoddy then you’ll never get there in time. Charge TC, Intercept Shockwave.

   I would also reccommend putting a skull mark on a hot key. Such a useful tool for reigning in unruly dps. I’ve remapped X. Sitting down midfight would be baad. (Unless you’re rage starved!)

6. Tarsus Says:
   October 25th, 2009 at 7:22 am

   “If you’re struggling to hit 540 Defense skill talk to a Blacksmith, get Wyrmrest Accord rep and run regular Halls of Lightning over and over again until you get Seal of the Pantheon.”

   @#%&ing Seal of the Pantheon! I’ve still never seen it drop.

   [Reply]

7. denandra Says:
   October 25th, 2009 at 7:42 am

   Great guide. You always deliver, I’m in awe.
   One addition though.
   About TTC, DO it on normal first. The normal version is on par with the harder Heroics. Also if you fail here (normal or hc) It’s probably not ONLY your fault since this instance tests the gear and skill of your entire group in a very good way. As long as you don’t threathcap your damagedealers on the bosses it’s most likely the their fault. Dps having enough stamina to be healable is VERY important in this instance. Their dps should be around 2k minimum also(For heroic). Don’t think about going there without 30k unbuffed hp and decent avoidance.

   [Reply]

   Jookie reply on October 28, 2009 2:21 pm:

   I’ve actually done H ToC with 26k unbuffed/30k buffed, and I did fine. The healer didn’t seem to have a problem as well. I think if you just practice rotations and can adapt to suprise situations, you’ll be fine at around 25-26k hp.

   [Reply]

8. Machus Says:
   October 25th, 2009 at 8:56 am

   This is a good article. I’m surprised you recommend doing many heroics. I finally leveled my tank after a break, and found that a week of TotC 5 normal and heroic gave me the gear to be accepted for PuG raids. Sadly, TotC is the most boring instance ever devised.

   Onyxia, VoA, and Sartharion are easy enough, and I’ve not yet succeeded in a PuG for a real raid instance. What I use as a personal benchmark currently is doing the heroic achievements, such as the Brann event.

   The biggest difficulty I have when transitioning from 5-player to raid tanking is not anything about the mobs but working with the other players. I taunt too much, and usually so does the other tank. I don’t notice where my healer is and go out of range. I’m not sure who to put Vigilance on. That sort of thing.

   [Reply]

   Drae reply on October 26, 2009 8:02 am:

   http://www.tankingtips.com/2009/08/05/over-taunting-isnt-just-bad-manners-anymore/

   is a great post re: taunting in raids.

   Vigilance is best served on the highest TPS DPS’er. I usually pick a DPS warrior as they have no threat dump and are melee. Selecting a melee has two advantages; they pull aggro more easily (110% rather then 130%) and they get hit by aoe / cleave more often then range, refreshing your taunt more often.

   If you use Grid for your raid frames (compact, lightweight and very customizable. I recommend it) there is a Out of range option that you can use to make it very obvious. (Moreso then just fading)

   [Reply]

   Machus reply on October 26, 2009 8:33 am:

   Thanks I didn’t appreciate until just now that I read Vene’s “riddle” post that Vigilance procs from accidental hits. I assumed it would only work where the mob targets a player with a direct attack.

   [Reply]

   Bhig reply on October 26, 2009 2:32 pm:

   Don’t forget to tell you healers to move too…
   Positioning isn’t just your duty in a raid. After all there are plenty of fights out there where you will need to move around the field, sometimes a lot. It’s important that the healers understand where it is best for them to stand to make sure they minimise people getting out of range.

   Cleaved reply on October 27, 2009 11:37 pm:

   I’ve had people tell me Vigilance isn’t worth talenting anymore. I think they’ve been eating lead paint whilst living under power lines in an asbestos laden home. On non-heroic Faction champs where Taunt works, its nice to have Taunt up so you can spam it on lots of different mobs to save people. On H-Anub it helps to have it on the MT or another OT so that you can chain-taunt adds if that is your duty. You can reduce damage on someone in a fight by a small amount and/or increase your TPS by a lot if you put it on the highest TPS DPS. It was really useful with another Prot warrior when I ran with one, as we’d trade off the threat xfer between each other when on the same mob, and also save each other 3% incoming dmg. Now BoSanc is nice for that, but Vigilance still has its uses.

   [Reply]

9. Feist Says:
   October 25th, 2009 at 9:51 am

   A tip for riding the defense line as a fresh 80 toon, good for a few more days:

   Stock up on G.N.E.R.D.S. http://www.wowhead.com/?item=37583

   Each candy gives 5 defense rating, which is 1 Defense skill. The buff can stack up to 4 times for a total of 20 Defense Rating. If you’re riding the D-Cap line and sitting at 534 waiting on another upgrade, or just can’t bring yourself to spend 300g to enchant that quest reward cape with +Defense when you only need 400 more Wyrmrest rep to get the good one, or whaterver, pop a G.N.E.R.D., and Go Forth and Tank!

   the items last 14 days from when you pick them up, and they can be gotten from every candy bucket in Azeroth, Outland, and Northrend!

   [Reply]

10. Kavtor Says:
    October 25th, 2009 at 12:12 pm

    Great post!

    But.
    Boots: 15 Stamina + Run speed or 22 Stamina.

    Always enchant run speed. Always.
    (sure, there’s an exception, but only for hard progression, which isn’t something new 80’s need to worry about)

    [Reply]

    AeroWow reply on October 25, 2009 12:55 pm:

    I agree - Tuskarr’s should ALWAYS be the default enchant, only to be switched out in very specific circumstances.

    Wouldn’t even recommend Titanium Weapon Chain or Major Defense to bracers - the other options simply outclass them by miles.

    “Spin to win” - I like it!

    [Reply]

    Veneretio reply on October 25, 2009 2:01 pm:

    Ya, they’re all there as cheaper alternatives. New tanks aren’t always rich! I agree though that run speed is far superior. A lesson I learned the hard way when doing the Yeti in the ToC raid!

    [Reply]

    Zellviren reply on October 26, 2009 2:52 am:

    I wholeheartedly disagree.

    As a warrior, if you can’t get somewhere faster than any other tank with Intervene, Intercept and Charge, no amount of enchanting is going to help you.

    +22 Stamina, every time. Let the paladins and death knights pick up Tuskarr’s Vitality; they need it far more.

    [Reply]

    Furiat/Vege reply on October 26, 2009 5:38 am:

    Think about times you have to move with mob. Not to the raid but to the opposite direction (so intervene won’t help you). Or when you are out of range or too close to use any of those skills. And you know what? Those situations happen often enough to value increased speed over mere 7 stamina.

    Furiat/Vege reply on October 26, 2009 5:45 am:

    “Mere” might be wrong word here. What I’m trying to say is that You can get samina in every other place. And boots are the only place You can get increased run speed.

    Zellviren reply on October 26, 2009 7:31 am:

    You know, I recall having this exact argument previously; therefore, I’ll say the same to you as I did to the prior contributor of this point.

    Exactly where does this happen?

    The point seems strong, then I consider where these situations ever crop up and I can’t think of a single example where it ever has. Now, I’m aware that you’ll probably suggest dozens of places where something “might” happen, but in my experience never does.

    Drae reply on October 26, 2009 8:07 am:

    +22 stam every time; sole exception is PvP (and thus the faction champs). Rarely am I ever in a situation where 8% run speed would make any difference what so ever.

    Sephirawth reply on October 26, 2009 9:09 am:

    1) Moving out of void zones faster
    2) Any boss that has some kind of explosion move IE: Mimiron’s shock Blast, Iron Council little man
    3) Faster positioning of bosses that you need to move (Malygos and Grob come to mind)
    4) Moving Hodir to light beams faster so more dps can get on him harder..
    5) Running from eyebeams on kologarn
    6) Icehowl heroic

    I could go on and on but I feel as though you are going to argue these are not worth 7 stam anyway.

    Sephirawth reply on October 26, 2009 9:11 am:

    I have been caught in a corner all by myself with icehowl expecially on 10 man heroic with no one to intervene to. You can’t just rely on intervene.

    Furiat/Vege reply on October 26, 2009 10:31 am:

    And problem with run speed on boots is that you won’t even notice this enchant. Till you stop using it. Then you will see how slow you are without it.
    At least I’ve noticed that difference.

    Zellviren reply on October 27, 2009 1:08 am:

    Sephirawth,

    You are correct; I don’t see where any of these are worth +7 stamina. In fact, once again, I’d point out that any tank needing more speed on his boots to deal with these particular examples are in need of more help than an enchantment can provide.

    I’m not arguing that Tuskarr’s doesn’t help - merely that it’s not a necessity.

    And I’ve yet to see a compelling argument to the contrary.

    Sephirawth reply on October 27, 2009 8:26 am:

    So what you are saying is that even though the run speed is superior to 7 stam in all of the above listed situations you would not take it?

    I am not sure what you are trying to do here, it seems as though you are trying to put down tanks who use a superior enchant by saying they need more help than the enchant can provide. Go look at EJ at the maths, maybe this will be compelling enough.

    Zellviren reply on October 28, 2009 1:26 am:

    “So what you are saying is that even though the run speed is superior to 7 stam in all of the above listed situations you would not take it?”

    Erm, no; I recall saying no such thing. What I DID say was that, although a run-speed enchant might help in those situations, +7 stamina is ALWAYS there and, as I’ve never had a problem in the situations you describe, why would I change?

    “I am not sure what you are trying to do here, it seems as though you are trying to put down tanks who use a superior enchant by saying they need more help than the enchant can provide.”

    I’m simply pointing out that Tuskarr’s Vitality isn’t necessarily a superior enchant in my experience. It is, in fact, inferior to me because I’ve never needed it. The argument “it helps here, here and here” isn’t valid, because the +7 stamina helps “everywhere”.

    “Go look at EJ at the maths, maybe this will be compelling enough.”

    Read: “My argument may not be so strong, so read what the experts (who, coincidentally enough, I agree with) to see the truth”.

    I can make decisions on my own, thanks.

    Kavtor reply on October 28, 2009 8:06 am:

    7 Stamina is 0.2% of my total stamina unbuffed, and quite a bit less than that raid buffed. As opposed to an 8% increase in movement speed.

    That’s 8% faster that you can move to, or from burning bile.
    That’s 8% faster that you can move out of Icehowl’s charge.
    That’s 8% faster that you can move back to Icehowl. (assuming you’re using charge and intercept to maintain range and positioning on his knockbacks while tanking him)

    That’s 8% faster you can move to Portals or Volcanos to add a sunder stack.
    That’s 8% faster you can move out of Infernal AOE’s, or reposition the boss away from a melee’s Legion Flame

    (Can we all just agree that if you don’t value movement speed over a few paltry points of stamina on faction champs that you’re just not playing the same game I am?)

    I’ll give you that in most Twins strats, there isn’t any tank movement, so the enchant is wasted there.

    That’s 8% further away you can get Anub’arak from a frost patch at the end of phase 1. Clearly, phase two is all about movement.

    And on phase 3, it’s that much quicker to reposition the boss near adds for AOE, or if you’re the add tank, that much quicker to collect and position the adds.

    And that’s an instance with no trash. Imagine how much time you would waste walking through the trash in black temple with out a speed enchant. How much time to your guildies spend waiting for you to catch up to them so they can move through any instance, 5 man or raid. (DPS and healers should also be enchanting speed to boots because 8% less time moving is 8% more time DPSing / healing)

    Let’s compare the number of times where 7 stamina would save my life, (when that happens, clearly something else has already gone wrong) with the amount of additional control over the encounter and safety from environmental hazards that a speed enchant provides. Not to mention, 8% more time in contact with the boss generating threat on any movement fight.

    There’s no comparison. And 22 stamina to boots is the wrong choice.

    Zellviren reply on October 29, 2009 1:56 am:

    Kavtor,

    Thanks for the time you took to post, it’s the most compelling argument I’ve yet seen on the topic. You have elected to concentrate on five encounters where I’ve never had any movement issues whatsoever, but purely from an overall performance point of view I suspect I may be in error.

    Thanks, again.

    Drae reply on October 26, 2009 8:03 am:

    Vene!! Intervene! Warriors (especially tanks with warbringer!) should never get caught by the yeti!

    [Reply]

    Veneretio reply on October 26, 2009 12:24 pm:

    You don’t always have a teammate beside you and sometimes they’re too close to you to Intervene.

    Drae reply on October 26, 2009 2:52 pm:

    Personally I find melee is in rage more often then not; especially with my back against the wall. Crap does happen tho!

    Machus reply on October 27, 2009 3:21 am:

    I’m also a fun of the run speed enchant, since I had some low level boots with it from Arathi I think.

    I’d take the straight stamina if I was a bleeding edge tank who had to do gatekeeper bosses such as Sarth 3D or Malygos early on while Undergeared. As a late leveling tank I already outgear these places. Learning and correct execution of current fights such as beasts is a much higher priority, so I’d always take the speed.

    [Reply]

    Howard reply on October 29, 2009 1:08 pm:

    I am playing in a “bleeding Edge”-Raidguild and if you want to max out your raid effectivness and kill bosses early runspeed > 7stam. Someone in here said “i had never problems running out of…” and something like this. Everytime you reposition a boss, run out of AoE, run away or to another mob, hell’ya in every damn fight exept Tank’n'Spank without any movement (think about how many bosses you can imagine where thats the case) runspeed > 7stam!

    [Reply]

    Sephirawth reply on October 29, 2009 3:12 pm:

    w0rd howard… w0rd!

    Cleaved reply on October 27, 2009 11:41 pm:

    I like 22 Stamina over Stam/Run Speed. I had used Stam/Run Speed since BC and even in most of Wrath. However, as of late I find it less and less useful. I keep up just fine and manage large rooms of mobs/bosses easily using Charge/Intercept/Intervene. Pallies don’t need it either, if they spec into Pursuit of Justice, which I do on my Prot Pally.
    I think it is a bit of preference now, but every bit of Stamina/Armor/EHP you can squeeze out of your gear also helps immensely in Heroic mode raids.
    Since this is for fresh 80’s, I think Run Speed/Stam is fine.

    [Reply]

    Vilhelmriker (Lothar Server) reply on October 28, 2009 7:51 am:

    in a word: LAG.

    Lag happens, every little bit you can move, will help.

    [Reply]

    Drae reply on October 28, 2009 9:17 am:

    To each his own. I don’t find I need it. Intervene, charge, & intercept works for almost every situation.

    And the majority of DPS in my guild use like Icewalker. They don’t care about stamina, so keeping up with them is hardly a concern.

    p.s. tank the yeti against a wall and you can use intervene to hit a melee, then charge back to the boss, melee will be thrown in the proper direction and within range the vast majority of the time.

    Kavtor reply on October 28, 2009 9:56 am:

    Movement speed to boots is a much better DPS enchant than icewalker. Unless it’s patchwerk, being able to spend that much less time moving, and that much more time DPSing / healing / in contact with the boss is going to result in much better DPS returns.

    Back in 3.1 (Naxx gear) the numbers for mages worked out to 4.4 seconds of movement per minute made the return on a movement speed enchant a greater DPS increase than icewalker. Icewalker doesn’t scale with gear. Time lost to movement does, so that number is even lower now to make the difference.

    Not to mention, that much quicker to not stand in the fire.

    Drae reply on October 28, 2009 10:29 am:

    /shrug I just know they use the hit and crit one. And we are far from scrubbish. To each his own.

    Bear with me a second this is interesting:

    Time to “get out of the fire/void-zone”? I think a Fair estimate 2 seconds. A 8% increase in speed would result in a gains of 160ms.

    Average human reaction speed is 150-300 ms.

    Average human reaction speed after 2 beers is 350-500ms. Or a difference of 200ms.

    So you would have negated all speed gains generated by your boot enchant after 2 beers.

    I know I’m not the only one who drinks while raiding. Fun fact of the day!

    Cleaved reply on October 28, 2009 1:34 pm:

    As to Icehowl positioning, we just put him against the wall sideways. This puts his left/right side (depending on where poison rings are, if any) against the wall and melee stand against the wall facing his side, and I stand in front of him with my back against the edge of a pillar. No knock-back for anyone, maximum DPS up-time, and no movement issues save for when he charges. Now, this is where it comes in handy to have a bunch of smart people that know which way to run, based on where the boss is facing and where his nose is in relation to themselves on the wall. Minor speed buffs to the entire raid won’t help if people aren’t vigilant and choose to react like they’ve had an entire case of beer.
    Saying people need minor speed to boots to avoid that charge is avoiding the discussion of why they fail at doing something perfectly fine without the buff.

    Asterix reply on October 29, 2009 12:10 pm:

    Good tanks have fast reaction reflexes. I do not recommend using speed enchants. It may become a crutch or an excuse for not paying attention or positioning properly. New tanks want to be good tanks so work those reflex muscles!

    Icehowl is given as an example for using the speed enchant. Position the yetti at a wall, not in a corner or doorway, and presto! You are already where you want to be. No knockbacks. Hard mode has no speed buff and it’s still easy to be positioned and to run away without any speed enchant.

    [Reply]

    Kavtor reply on October 30, 2009 7:16 am:

    Good tanks do have fast reflexes.
    So having -faster- reflexes with a speed enchant is more important than a fraction of a percentage of a health buff.

    Asterix reply on October 30, 2009 2:29 pm:

    Kavtor - I understand you’re a propontent for the old enchant. I used it too exclusively until warbringer was available. I have never missed the enchant since I can now charge and intervene to anywhere I need to be.

    I reread your lengthy reasons for the enchant and to be honest I’ve never had a problem with any of the scenarios you gave. Maybe my reaction time is better than yours but I never get caught in fire and can move out of any instantly.

    Other examples made make no sense like catching up to your raid? Huh? Or where you don’t know of a time where 70 stm saved your life. I had a case just last night where I was down to 89 hp before the next heal. On Icehowl, I hardly even move. I tank it with my back to a wall and have no trouble avoiding his charge in heroic mode.

    “And 22 stamina to boots is the wrong choice.” That’s your opinion and may be true for you. I don’t need the speed boost and if I did, there are 20 [Swiftness Potions] in my bag. 50% increase for 15 seconds.

    It takes like one second to move out of fire for me. So if I had the enchant I move out of it in .92 second. You’re splitting hairs bro. 70 stm is not that great, but it is unbuffed.

    I really think you are discounting the 70 stm. You do know that’s before buffs right?

    Kavtor reply on October 30, 2009 4:35 pm:

    I understand the value of 70 stam. And I’ve spent enough time at single didget health (or died by a handful of health) to know the value of stamina.

    You can stack stamina in every slot, every enchant, and every gem. But there’s only one place you can get a speed boost.

    Sure, maybe your reaction time is faster than mine. Maybe not. I’ve never had problems staying out of the fire either. But I spend that much less time moving, and have that much more time to devote to the encounter. Which adds up quickly. How much more time to I spend not moving on something like Yogg?

    Swiftness potions aren’t the answer. I’m sure you know as well as I that in almost any case that matters, you’re using an Indestructable pot.

    You say a fraction of a second is splitting hairs, but my argument is, almost everything is at a certain point. And that extra fraction of speed is a larger relative increase to my speed than the extra fraction of stamina is to my health. (8% speed, 0.17% health)

    A speed boost helps survivability, control, DPS, and threat. It’s just more often, more useful, and has a greater effect on what you can do as a tank.

11. Darock Says:
    October 25th, 2009 at 4:06 pm

    As stated above, you didn’t mention the armsman enchant (+2% threat and 10 parry rating) on gloves. What’s the reasoning behind that?

    [Reply]

    Veneretio reply on October 25, 2009 4:57 pm:

    The reason I don’t recommend it is the same reason I don’t recommend going out of your way to pursue expertise or hit. When you’re lacking gear, you need to boost your survival as much as possible. If you’re struggling with threat early on, it’s more likely that you’re pressing the wrong buttons. It’s far less likely that it’s that 2% threat you’re lacking.

    By no means am I saying that the threat enchant for gloves is bad, it’s just not an important enchant early on.

    [Reply]

12. Barricade Says:
    October 25th, 2009 at 5:31 pm

    No jewelcrafting? I run with jewelcrafting + enchanting, and I value my 51 stam gems over anything on the planet.

    Also, good call on listing Mongoose and not Blade Ward. Too many people make the mistake of thinking BW is better just because it’s an Ulduar enchant, even when the math on Mongoose speaks for itself

    [Reply]

    Veneretio reply on October 25, 2009 5:52 pm:

    Might want to re-read the profession section

    [Reply]

13. Orcstar Says:
    October 25th, 2009 at 6:39 pm

    A little note on aoe threat.
    Both shockwave and shieldblock are really nice tools for aoe threat.
    But don’t use them together.
    Shield block gives you extra threat by blocking attacks and doing damage to mobs when you block. So you have to wait for the stun part of your shockwave to end or part of the shieldblock effect is unused, both the mitigation as the threat part.

    Stunned mobs don’t hit you so there’s nothing to block.

    [Reply]

    Cleaved reply on October 27, 2009 11:45 pm:

    Same goes for caster mobs and Spell Reflect. Don’t charge in, Shockwave and then pop Spell Reflect. Just a waste of rage. Save it for when they start casting or pre-pop it and avoid Shockwave if you know a mob is going to DoT you. I kill so many Priest-type mobs with their own very hard-hitting Shadow Word: Pain this way (H-ToC comes to mind).

    The more you know about what the mob/boss you are facing can do, the better a tank you’ll be. Especially if you know when they have a tendency to do things that don’t even have a cast bar.

    A good friend of mine always says “very nice spell reflect” when we’re running Heroics, because I tend to anticipate even insta-casts and burn mobs with their own voodoo.

    [Reply]

    Drae reply on October 28, 2009 9:18 am:

    By far one of my favorite things to do is reflect CC in faction champions.

    [Reply]

14. Orcstar Says:
    October 25th, 2009 at 6:41 pm

    Also you should note the glyph of taunt. Especially when low on hit.
    It does wonders for me atm and I just can rely on a “taunt-hit-cap” so no taunt will ever miss.

    [Reply]

    Veneretio reply on October 25, 2009 8:06 pm:

    Glyph of Taunt, while an important end-game glyph, is not useful to someone who has just hit level 80.

    [Reply]

    Cleaved reply on October 27, 2009 11:47 pm:

    I am not a fan of the extreme amount of Expertise put on current 25m gear, with all the Hit being put on 10m gear. It needs to be balanced, but it is way out of whack. My Hit has sunk to very low levels and my Expertise is well over the dodge cap without any way to remove some unless I downgrade gear.

    Just not understanding where Blizz went with this current tier of gear, both set and non-set pieces. Bad set bonuses and oddly itemized non-set pieces.

    [Reply]

    Drae reply on October 28, 2009 9:22 am:

    http://www.tankingtips.com/2009/01/07/expertise-is-always-better-than-hit/

    I don’t mind the lack of hit at all. Expertise is imo a better stat. I just glyph for taunt when needed.

    To me Expertise vs. hit is like avoidance vs. block. One is generally accepted as a better stat, but both have their place. They key is to know when hit is needed, just like knowing when block mechanics are OP.

    [Reply]

    Cleaved reply on October 28, 2009 1:41 pm:

    Indeed, there is no argument in my post against Expertise, so much as the amount of it in relation to the lack of Hit. Do I want Expertise? Sure. Do I want it and Hit in balance if possible? You bet. The current gear gives us too much Expertise and leaves little room for customization unless you mix and match 10m Heroic gear into your 25m stuff.
    I don’t think this was Blizzard being smart, because if that were the case, 10m gear would have Expertise too, because they don’t need Hit at that level of content either. Expertise is better than Hit, but Hit doesn’t hurt, and we used to get a decent amount of it from gear without having to seek it out. The balance just seems a bit skewed as of late, was my point.

    I have an expertise set that makes it impossible for me to be dodged/parried at all, and with enough hit that I nearly never miss. It maximizes threat and DPS as a Tank, but sinks my HP quite a bit as it has a mixture of some older pieces (Ulduar). It is good for Heroics or older content, but very gimmicky.

15. Baruti Says:
    October 26th, 2009 at 12:14 am

    Great post!
    Sometimes expirienced tanks forget what it is like to be new to the tanking game! I can imagin many fresh tanks are a bit overwhelmed…
    I for one will surely send new tanks I meet to have a read here!
    ~Baruti.

    [Reply]

16. Busterchops Says:
    October 26th, 2009 at 1:13 am

    Noob question here but I enchanted 22 stam on boots but why do some say it is no brainer to enchant for run speed?

    [Reply]

    Furiat/Vege reply on October 26, 2009 1:33 am:

    Because run speed is more important than mere 7 stamina.
    Moving out of fire/voidzones, out of Icehowl’s charge patch, chatching mobs that are too close to use charge/intercept/intervene (to far too, to be honest), moving Nerubian Burrowers at their ice spot, running from raid/OT on IC hard when having 5-10 sec left on debuff,
    all those things are more important than having ~100hp buffed more.

    Hell, even lot of dpsers use it, for the very same reasons.

    [Reply]

    Ilyamurometz reply on October 26, 2009 1:42 am:

    You enchant run speed because you sacrifice a nominal amount of stamina for the ability to move 8% faster. that means if your running someplace to get into charge range or as vene mentioned the yeti boss, running away from something. tanking has alot to do with proper movement and positioning. for example moving out of koralon fire patches or any boss with a similar effect, having run speed means you are out of the fire that much faster. I remember the enchant being a lifesaver on encounters like Al’ar and Lady Vashj.

    ~The Murometz

    [Reply]

    Baruti reply on October 26, 2009 4:03 am:

    It is not a no-brainer.
    and it’s also not a ‘mere 7 stamina’.
    Fact of the matter however, in most current encouters it nicer to have a little more speed then a little more health.
    If however you fight static tank-’n-spank fights, 7 Sta vastly outmatches running speed (as you do not run!)

    However, only if you MT a lot of static fight, you might wanna consider taking 22 stamina. All other things, get the movement speed!
    (In TBC, when I was actively MT’ing progression raids, I always took runningspeed on my boots, and if I found myself lucky enough to get another pair of the same boots, I enchanted it with full Sta! (Only after all current tanks got the boots or better!))

    [Reply]

    Drae reply on October 26, 2009 8:12 am:

    I disagree, 8% run speed is minimal, and makes so little difference on moving anything that I would never use run speed for anything outside of PvP.

    Moving out of void zones is max 2-3 steps (except for rune of death Iron Council) meaning you save an entire…. 200 ms maybe?

    Run speed sounds nice; but I’ll go for stam every time. It’s really a matter of personal preferance.

    [Reply]

    Cleaved reply on October 27, 2009 11:54 pm:

    Agree with Drae.
    Also, people have said “running from in front of Icehowl” as a reason. I don’t get this. Even without the Sprint buff (which is a huge crutch that sets people up to fail in Heroic), you can move out from in front of his path with 3 things:
    1. Proper communication about which directions people are running and who he is facing.
    2. Paying attention to where he is facing. If you see his face and his Nose is to your right, you would run..? LEFT, because you are closer to being out from in front of him in that direction. Players seeing his nose to their Left should run… RIGHT. So simple, but so many people don’t pay attention.
    3. Turn your camera before you are actually able to move. Hold down RMB, rotate camera the direction you are going to run, and start holding own your Forward movement key. You will turn and run at the same time, saving a second or 2.

    It is so easy to avoid, and not everyone enchants run speed for that fight. You can also intervene to someone to your left/right depending on which way you are going… and get away even faster. Run speed is a non-issue in this instance.

    Meatgazer reply on October 26, 2009 8:31 am:

    7 Stamina doesn’t vastly outmatch, it slightly outmatches run speed. And it’s technically only better if you are in a static tank-’n-spank fight where 100 HP is the difference between living and dying.

    And truth of the matter, if you’re new to tanking, moving faster is way more important, because you skills aren’t honed enough and your reaction time may not be fast enough. End of the day, as a new tank, you will prevent more wipes with faster run speed than 7 stamina.

    [Reply]

    Machus reply on October 27, 2009 12:44 pm:

    Another way to look at this is to ask what gear will you have this time next week. Chances are you’ll get some new item and pretty much any tanking item you upgrade will give you +7 stamina (or more). There’s your stamina recovered. Random upgrades don;t tend to include run speed (although a few unusual ones do).

    [Reply]

    Cleaved reply on October 27, 2009 11:58 pm:

    You can’t count 7 stamina on a piece of gear as eclipsing the stamina lost from an enchant because the enchant goes on top of that gear. If I have 22 Stamina on my boots and get a new cloak that improves my total stamina another 10 points, the new cloak plus 22 Stam on boots gives me 32 more stamina. If I switch to run speed, the new cloak gives me 25 more stamina. I think this argument would work if you got a piece of gear with Run Speed on it, but only for replacing the Run Speed enchant since they wouldn’t stack anyhow.

    [Reply]

    Orcstar reply on October 28, 2009 7:07 am:

    100 hp isn’t going to make or break you as a tank. The extra runspeed is superior on most every occasion.

    Drae reply on October 28, 2009 9:26 am:

    To Each his Own.

    I contend that runspeed is next to useless. Any time where I HAVE TO MOVE NOW! Intervene or charge are available, and for moving out of a voidzone, runspeed will save you ~200 ms. A fifth of a second is squat. Warcraft is a game of inches and I personally believe every bit of stam helps.

    7 stam is more then the difference between a blue and an epic stam gem after-all, would you leave one of your stam gems a rare in your gear?

    Cleaved reply on October 28, 2009 1:45 pm:

    I think Drae and I keep arguing it, but the main point needs to be… the trade-off in either direction is minimal. You get a minimal increase in run speed, or a minimal increase in stamina. What do you prefer? Go with that.
    I honestly think Stamina never hurts, and Run Speed isn’t an issue with our increased mobility due to Warbringer. If you think 8% run speed is going to save yours or someone else bacon, then enchant it up and don’t think twice about it. I think a lot of the mentality behind run speed goes back to BC where it was more an issue, but I honestly don’t think it’ll kill you to give up stamina or speed, whichever enchant you decide on.

17. Wiredude Says:
    October 26th, 2009 at 4:24 am

    Wow, just the article I needed to read! I hit 80 about a week and a half ago on my warrior, through a little help, and having planned a little bit, I hit 535 defense within a couple of days, and 540 soon after. I’ve been trying heroics as much as I reasonably can, and have managed to successfully run VH, UK, most of UP (Skadi event is rough for me though). I also got dragged through to dual-tank H-ToC (by my guild leader) and got very lucky getting both the tanky ring, and the Peacekeeper Blade. I’ve also managed to get the Black Heart out of reg ToC, so I’m ok gear-wise.
    Anyway, last night I let my GM talk me into coming along on a Naxx 25 run. Ok, not a ton of talking involved, but we needed bodies, and my hunter only has 2 slots that could possibly be upgraded in there, and those would be iffy at that. And well we all want to get the new tank some better gear…
    Let’s just say it didn’t go really well. I did end up getting the belt from Patch though, so it wasn’t a totally wasted endeavor. I can honestly say I know that there were some other issues at work, other than just me, but I also know the gear I have is enough (Armory –> Dreymor — Whisperwind US), it’s that I need more practice. Yeah, I need to tweak my spec slightly, I screwed a point or 2 up leveling at like level 60, but I think it’s still close enough to work alright.
    The biggest issue I’ve had is that people at least on my server are incredibly impatient with a learning tank, and warrior tanks in particular. Because of the guild situation I was in (I also have changed guilds since hitting 80), I was having to try and PuG almost every run I went on, so that probably made it tougher, and my new guild is a bit better/bigger, allowing me to get guild runs, which seem a little more tolerant.
    Also if someone out there could help, I have terrible issues trying to tank Paletress in Reg ToC. Any tips? Eadric is a cake-walk, and the Black Knight isn’t exactly easy, but a quick Challenging Shout followed by Thunderclap seems to buy enough time to keep things under control in phase 2, and phase 3 is just a DPS race…

    [Reply]

    Trisk reply on October 28, 2009 12:18 pm:

    I so hear what you are saying. I have been through the new tank, and relatively new to WOW, PUG HELL myself. Seems like a lot of PUG’s just want to go go go….. I have been in a couple that have been patient, and really good, but the bad one leave a bad taste. Is also crazy how all bad experiences become the tanks fault. Was running a 5 man H-TOC one night, and the Pally healer could not kep me alive to save his life. I had 20% across the board on avoidance, 557Def and 34,000HP,and had threat on all 3 champs, and he blames me for dying (took a quick look after, and am sure he had his DPS gear on at the time). I think the best advise, and it is advise that I have a hard time taking myself, is to just tough through it and have thick skin. I will admit, when I make mistakes, and I realize that I am making mistakes, and am still learning, ALOT, but it is still fun.
    As to Paletress, best advise is ignore her when she summns the add, she is untouchable anyway, and use whatever you can to avoid fear, Beserker rage, and a trinket to be safe should get you though, and remember that your healer may be AFK for a few seconds if they get feared so be ready with Last Stand and or Enraged Regeneration, and a pot just in case.
    Glad to hear i am not the only one with the Learning Tank, bad PUG Blues…… Maybe a future post on how to handle the “learning curve” of doing 5 mans, when no one wants to allow a tank to learn by making mistakes……. lol

    [Reply]

    Machus reply on October 29, 2009 2:50 am:

    The priest in heroic ToC is definitely harder than the rest of the instance, because the summoned mobs hit very hard and both you and your healer may be disadvantaged by fear. Here’s a few tips:

    - Take a break between add groups #2 and #3 if your party needs mana.
    - Walk up to her and shield bash her spell. She’s interruptible that way but can’t be silenced with throw.
    - Pull her closer to the center to avoid LoS issues around the large door.
    - When the apparition is summoned, immediately target and pull it to where the priest is, so you have them both side by side.
    - Kill the apparition. The priest will be immune to damage and will target random party member anyway.
    - Save your shield slam for dispelling the Lifebloom on the add.
    - If you are quick, target the priest and interrupt her direct healing spells.
    - Use your cooldowns and fear immunities to avoid dying while you and/or your healer are feared.

    [Reply]

    urkagan reply on October 30, 2009 8:53 am:

    dispelling lifebloom on the add? since when SSdispells anything but ur own debuffs?

    [Reply]

    Machus reply on October 30, 2009 9:08 am:

    There’s definitely a healing over time spell that the priest casts on the summoned apparition, and you can dispel it by shield slam. I think the priest version is actually called renew, not lifebloom.

18. Jeff Says:
    October 26th, 2009 at 4:52 am

    I have asked several questions regarding just a few more detailed things than tankingtips usually provide and never heard a response. Since you are glad to provide answers I would love to hear from you. I was asking about any blogs that covered detailed tanking discussions on gear, theory and other tanking topics besides tankspot and elitist jerks. I read that Xav had a blog but I have yet to find it. Just looking for more concise discussions. Thanks.

    [Reply]

    Veneretio reply on October 26, 2009 12:53 pm:

    Xav doesn’t really have a blog, but he does keep his guild’s website up-to-date with his findings so that’s probably what you heard about.

    http://www.premoguild.com/forums/portal.php

    He also often posts on the WoW forums with his findings from PTR testing.

    [Reply]

19. Kavtor Says:
    October 26th, 2009 at 8:45 am

    Run Speed is better.

    Ever done CoS with out run speed? Running from pack to pack behind the group is going to get you in trouble.
    Running between trash pulls is helpful. There are lots of places where you want to move a bit (reposition a mob, step out of the fire) but don’t want to move too far (intervene / charge / intercept)
    Being able to step out of a fire 8% faster makes a difference.

    If you’re a new tank, you’ll likely be spending time running around chasing mobs. Doing that 8% faster is invaluable. Try chasing after your priest (who has runspeed) when you don’t have it. Good luck.

    Run speed is the only acceptable enchant. It’s worth the extra cost. There’s almost no reason to ever enchant 22 Stamina. (unless you’re a P*****N)

    [Reply]

    Baruti reply on October 27, 2009 4:20 am:

    Repositioning a mob ot stepping out of fire with 8% increased speed? Wow, that might just save you .008 seconds…
    Don’t get me wrong, I love movementspeed.. (makes Heroics fly by even faster)
    I value speed over sta as well for feet-enchant… but it’s definately not ‘the only thing worth taking’…

    ow, and about the priest you speak of..
    If he/she runs away, speed enchant or not, he/she deserves to die!

    [Reply]

    Kavtor reply on October 27, 2009 7:09 am:

    Yes, it’s the only thing worth taking. If you react a half second slow, and can avoid a tick of fire damage, it’s a lot better than an extra bit of stamina.

    [Reply]

    Sephirawth reply on October 27, 2009 8:31 am:

    Agreed, Finally Killed Anub on ToGc 10 last night and that ‘minimal’ bit of speed sure helped when kiting those damn spikes as long as possile. He didn’t drop the sword though

20. Alar Says:
    October 26th, 2009 at 8:51 am

    So is Blade Ward not as good as an enchant as Blood draining then?

    I just went for Blade Ward as thats the one i rend to sell the most on my main to other tanks

    [Reply]

    Veneretio reply on October 26, 2009 1:01 pm:

    Blade Warding is different than Blood Draining so it’s situational which is best. The larger point my quick weapon enchanting note was making is that Mongoose is better than Blade Warding.

    As to why you sell Blade Warding most, I’d say it’s because most tanks don’t think that a level 70 enchant can be better than a level 80 one. And not everyone considers Blood Draining’s health gain useful either. It also might just be that players are getting their Blood Draining enchants elsewhere and you’ve become known as one of the people that can do Blade Warding that’s online a lot.

    Basically, I’d rarely take into account enchant sales when determining the best enchant especially when popular opinion isn’t always right.

    [Reply]

21. Delmonico Says:
    October 26th, 2009 at 9:11 am

    Its been a long time since I was in that now what mode, but I would think that the points in Imp Disc. would be mispent at this stage of a Prot Warrior’s career.

    I had rage issues when I was starting out in the heroics, and found Endless Rage to be a better use of those 3 points. If the Teir 1 Shield talent offers enough of a rage buffer for a starter tank, then great.

    [Reply]

    Veneretio reply on October 26, 2009 1:02 pm:

    The reason I like getting new tanks into 2 minute Shield Wall right away is so that they don’t get in the ugly habit of “saving it” for the perfect moment. With it only being 2 minutes, tanks are much more inclined to use it aggressively which is how they should be using the 5 minute version anyway. Basically, 2 minute SW is not only beneficial, but also helps establish good tanking behaviour.

    [Reply]

    Bhig reply on October 26, 2009 2:42 pm:

    I agree.
    I recently had to respec my 2nd warrior (from pre-dual spec days) to be a tank. And having experienced 2min shield walls I went straight for it. I also went for the 2min Last stand, although looking at this now I think maybe I should change that glyph.

    IMO a lot more fights are calling on the use of skills like Shieldwall. I even use it on gormok (H ToC10) to soften the damage intake from impale and to give the healers a (sometimes much needed) breather.

    [Reply]

    Delmonico reply on October 26, 2009 3:17 pm:

    Good point Vene, and wow…. got a response on my first post…. woot.

    [Reply]

22. Clint Says:
    October 26th, 2009 at 9:39 am

    Engineering should not be discounted. Relatively early in engineering you can get 885 armor to gloves and the Flexweave Underlay provides +23 agi to back. Agi to back is often cited as weaker enchant but it provides armor/avoidance/threat and it’s a nice balance. Similar to why people advocate for mongoose still.

    5-mans+frag belt is also fun.

    [Reply]

    Grido reply on October 26, 2009 11:10 am:

    I am also an Engineer. As new 80 tank there are a bunch of cool toys but not so much when geared.

    Helm
    Trinket
    Gun
    Glove enchant
    Back enchant
    Frag Belt enchant
    Healing Injector Kit for the bonus health for eng’s

    Odd stuff I still use.
    Jeeves (Vendor, Repair and get to bank, is a Nice raid tool)
    MOLL-E (for mail)
    Gnomish Army Knife (has saved the raid from a long walk a few times)
    Wormhole Generator: Northrend (Makes me feel like a Mage)
    Helm enchant (Mind Amplification Dish and +45 stam) I keep this in my bags for the odd situation (It has more Stam but loss 20 def).

    [Reply]

    Lindentree reply on October 27, 2009 6:43 pm:

    I’m an engineer too, and a rather compulsive rainy-day packrat… so with all the Saronite Bombs I made while leveling, I’ve been having a blast supplementing my AoE threat on (still Regular) 5-mans with the nice, off-GCD, instant-cast, 1-minute cooldown Saronite Bombs. Saved my butt on HoS first time I went through it.

    [Reply]

    Lindentree reply on October 28, 2009 5:24 am:

    After I wrote this I reread it and began to doubt whether my bombs were actually off the GCD - I haven’t played in a little while due to rl - so I went and tested it out. Sorry for spreading misinformation, folks: bombs ARE on the GCD.

    However, when Thunderclap and Challenging Shout are on cooldown and you need AoE threat FAST, I can’t think of a better use of a GCD.

    [Reply]

23. Cornfedhick Says:
    October 26th, 2009 at 10:21 am

    Thanks Vene for putting all the vital information and summing it up one a sweet, compact, there-it-is, post. I especially love the summary of the gems. I’m colorblind so description is better than giving straight color directions.

    Also, I ran UP and ToC-5 for weeks trying to get one of the tanking swords and failed every time so I ended up getting the axe from the Tourney tokens. Surprisingly the stats are not that bad and when I finally got Red Sword of Courage this weekend (YAY) I had to make a decision to lose the Def from the Tourney axe and gain Stam from the Sword or keep holding out for something from whatever PuG raids I can get myself into.

    [Reply]

    Graakan reply on October 27, 2009 8:47 am:

    I had the same weapon issue you did, opting for the Tourney axe as well (Teldrassil Protector, in case someone’s wondering). When the Red Sword finally dropped, I threw Mongoose on it, figuring it was a no-brainer upgrade for the axe. Turns out it isn’t, as you mentioned. I’m still using the axe.

    [Reply]

24. Grido Says:
    October 26th, 2009 at 10:44 am

    Do you think “2 minute Shield Wall at 40%” is really worth it? At the moment you can at least use it once at every fight, but to make the most of the Shield wall spec you really want to make sure it gets used at least twice during a battle.

    If I make this change I will need to rethink the way I use shield wall. At the moment is my emergency button when I’m getting low and cant see an heal incoming, but with this spec it would almost become part of my rotation or to time with a bosses abilities.

    How are you using it?

    [Reply]

    athelia reply on October 26, 2009 11:12 am:

    Yes 2 min shield wall is hot… So you are doing your first ulduar pull or Ony pull… whats going to make sure it starts out right? Shield wall and get into position and 2 mins later its ready.

    Hear that anoying health low beep? Hit shield wall, its there for you again in 2 mins. Yes healers are supposed to heal but its your job to make sure you are healable. They will thank you for being able to survive.

    I macro shield wall with enrage regeneration and my alchy heal(warrior is alt). I macro last stand with Pot and healthstone.

    To each their own but 2 min shield wall is pretty hawt imo.

    [Reply]

    urkagan reply on October 26, 2009 11:17 am:

    WHAT ALCH HEAL?

    [Reply]

    athelia reply on October 26, 2009 12:13 pm:

    sorry the herbalism heal. Lifeblood. http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=55503

25. urkagan Says:
    October 26th, 2009 at 11:14 am

    why did u skip alchemy? with the mixology, tanks have extra 630 heals, which is on par ( at the minimum) with jewelcrafters. that is not even counting 2 hours duration as a specialty for alchemists.

    thank you

    URK

    [Reply]

    Veneretio reply on October 26, 2009 12:37 pm:

    If I suggested Alchemy then a lot of new tanks would think it was okay to have Alchemy + Herbalism which it’s not. There’s also the reality that as a tank, you aren’t always going to be wearing a flask in which case Alchemy offers no benefit. So while, I don’t think you’re wrong to use Alchemy, I also don’t think it’s worth recommending to new tanks.

    [Reply]

    athelia reply on October 26, 2009 1:08 pm:

    Alchemy is fine. Its not just for flasks… Elixers and your trinket make it decent. Endgame raiding is where it falls short. Mining gives you 500hp and is not too bad. Herbilism is terrible as the heal is miniscule.(my tank is herbalist/alchy).

    As soon as my DK levels up he will take over my flower picking and I will be alchy/BS.

    Endgame raiding its very hard to beat BS/JC. That is where it is at and probably will be into the next expansion.

    [Reply]

    Farva reply on October 27, 2009 8:49 am:

    Mining was changed a few patches back to give 60 stamina instead of HP.

    JC (with the three +51 stam gems) gives you a total of +63 stamina vs. using the +30 stam gems in the same slots.

    BS gives you the 2 extra gem slots, which for tanks will = a 60 stamina increase.

    LW has the bracer enchant of +102 stam. The difference beetween that and the standard +40 stam enchant to bracers is a net of +62 stam.

    Enchanting allows you to enchant your 2 rings to give you +30 stamina each, for a total of +60 stamina.

    Hence, picking any 2 of these will give you close to the same benefit (within 3 stamina).

    There may be some arguments for endgame content as to one being better to have (cough*LW*cough), but as Vene has said, that isn’t what this post is about.

    urkagan reply on October 30, 2009 9:00 am:

    so mining gives u 500hp, right?
    mixology gives u 630 hp on top of what everybody gets from tanking flask. enchanting gives u 60 stamina, that is 600 hp.with kings its 660. i loose 30 hp to chanter and 30 hp to JC. miners are far behind. Alchemy FTW.

    Kavtor reply on October 30, 2009 12:16 pm:

    Mining is 60 stamina.

    urkagan reply on October 27, 2009 9:07 am:

    if the flask is not being used, then there always always combo of battle and guardian elixirs with increased effecrt. so no herbalism requared for that, and benefits are always there. herbalism can be used on alts or there always an AH

    [Reply]

    Brugamenn reply on October 28, 2009 1:10 pm:

    For an entry level beginner tank just starting heroics, or working his/her way through heroics into raiding, JC is imo the most useful profession. Even if you discount all other stat gains/options as being relatively equal the monarch crab trinket puts JC over the top. Not only will it allow you to pick up some much needed stamina with gem slots, the 1 minute CD use giving you 300 dodge is unbeatable until you get to some really advanced raiding. If you are a new tank and are looking for a profession, the crab is incredibly usefull.

26. Grido Says:
    October 26th, 2009 at 2:08 pm

    I would be curios how this guide would differ for an end game raider with all the latest gear and experience. More from a perspective of what to shoot for, I already do most of the suggestions mentioned above, but as I move to more advanced content what would need to change or maybe it would stay the same.

    I see talk about Dodge vs Parry Ratio, Glyph of Taunt, Expertise, etc.

    [Reply]

27. Pachi Says:
    October 26th, 2009 at 2:53 pm

    2 quick questions, is devastate glyph better then the revenge glyph, and wouldn’t it be better to do 2/5 shield specialization and 3/3 focused rage?

    Also, I disagree slightly with the survivability always greater then threat, there is no better way to get your healers to run oom then to make the fight run on longer by having your top 2-5 dps threat capped. Also whats wrong with engineering as a tank profession, 885 armor to gloves is awesome.

    [Reply]

    Veneretio reply on October 26, 2009 4:14 pm:

    This entire post is geared towards a new 80 running 5 man Heroics who will eventually be moving into raiding Naxx. Once you start looking at it from a different perspective than that, it’s going to feel a bit off at times.

    Your concerns seem to be directed primarily towards my lack of emphasis on threat to which the “My Hit and Expertise are really low though!” section addresses.

    Which isn’t to say that your comment doesn’t have validity, it does. You’re not wrong that Focused Rage could be used, that Engineering could be used and that threat capping DPS is bad. However, these are all things that I didn’t feel warranted addressing in this guide because I feel it would lose a lot of it’s usefulness if it went into too much detail. I don’t know about you, but when I was a new player I wanted to get my information and get out.

    You can’t play the game if you’re stuck reading all day

    [Reply]

    Machus reply on October 29, 2009 2:56 am:

    Why would they be doing Naxx? Surely they’d be doing VoA, Onyxia, TotC 5, and TotC 10 if possible.

    Naxx is surely interesting, but very long and inefficient even as a badge run. On my realm at least there’s hardly any groups going there.

    [Reply]

    Bhig reply on October 29, 2009 7:15 pm:

    This is a post about beginners new to 80. They would do well to at least have a good go at Naxx. There’s still plenty of skills and experience to be gained from those fights (even if they are pretty easy (easier with the gear you can get from badges)).

    My guild/group ran Naxx once. Pretty much fully Uld geared (ToC10/25 had just come out). We only had 8 people (I t-h-i-n-k one was a beginner who, sadly, spent a lot of time kissing the floor), and were able to clear each quarter in a little over half and hour (not counting the BRB/AFK breaks). IIRC we ran three quarters, so took home about 10 badges and around 20 Abyss Shards. Which isn’t a bad little haul. And it was a bucket load more interesting than heroic farming… I reckon if we’d had a full 10 we could have easily done that in under the 2 hours (incl breaks) it took us.

28. Bhig Says:
    October 26th, 2009 at 3:02 pm

    Vene. How do you rate a 5/15/51 type spec for a beginner (sorry, can’t link actual spec as I’m at work and it’s blocked)?
    (Mentioned in other comment) I’ve recently had to respec my 2nd warrior (pre-dual spec toon) to Prot to help out with the beginner group in my guild (refuse to take my main simply because with his gear my survivability in Naxx makes the fights trivial). I decided to go with 5/15/51 (with 2 min shield wall).
    Compared to the first time I did this (15/5/51 or 15/3/53, no 2min SWall), I’m finding the utility of “bigger” comm shout and stronger demo shout to be nice, and I don’t feel that I’m having threat problems (the odd loss of containment, but I’m not having to taunt like mad). Obviously everything is not the same, even our “noobs” are cranking out 30% more DPS than my first group ever achieved in naxx, we have some much more solid healers, and I have a lot more tanking experience. But I find it seems to work out well.

    [Reply]

29. marklar Says:
    October 26th, 2009 at 3:52 pm

    for these new 80’s (who will likely be in heroics and not raids), the defense minimum would be 535 - even less (531?) for those who have chosen the PVP shoulder enchant.

    this can be a huge difference for toons that are freshly dinged.

    PS: yay for someone that also likes the glove armor enchant and boo to blizzard for no WoLK upgrade.

    [Reply]

    Veneretio reply on October 26, 2009 4:16 pm:

    Yup, I could have mentioned that, but since I know most 80s aren’t going to listen to my advice to do a lot of 5 mans and are going to just jump into raids, it’s easier to just get them on the right raiding path immediately. After all, too much Defense isn’t exactly a bad thing.

    [Reply]

30. Bhig Says:
    October 26th, 2009 at 6:54 pm

    Glove Enchant:
    What about 18 stam from Heavy Borean Armour Kit?

    [Reply]

    Veneretio reply on October 26, 2009 7:40 pm:

    A fine enchant, but I prefer the armor in this case. I’ve used both.

    [Reply]

31. Apolladan Says:
    October 26th, 2009 at 8:32 pm

    18 stam to gloves is the better enchant. 240 armor is about 21 stam worth of EH if you convert it using the EH formula, except it only works on physical damage. Not worth the 3 stamina increase from 18 stam.

    Not only that, but stamina scales with buffs.

    [Reply]

32. HanktheTank Says:
    October 27th, 2009 at 6:25 am

    Thanks for posting this. I tend to do everything I can to perfect my character and I was shocked to learn about the glove enchant. After seeing the enchant there was no question that I would start using it. Threat is never and issue even with my 5/10/56 build so this enchant is a no-brainer as it gives similar if not even more effective health than the borean armor kit.

    [Reply]

33. Wiredude Says:
    October 27th, 2009 at 1:12 pm

    Vene, I’ve noticed a glyph I’ve been using notably missing in really any posts on your site. I use Glyph of Cleaving, and it seems to help me greatly at least in 5-mans (which is what I’m really working now). By taking Cleave up to a 3-target attack, it’s made most pulls a matter of just smacking cleave as a rage-dump, and occasionally tabbing to cycle Devastate or Shield Slam. Am I just developing a bad habit here? Or have I stumbled onto something that’s simply been overlooked? My current majors are Revenge, Blocking, and Cleaving, though I’ve though about perhaps dumping Revenge for either Devastate or Shield Wall. I just hate to lose the free Heroic Strikes, as a new tank trying to keep ahead of some of the dps out there in PuGland is tough at times.

    [Reply]

    Drae reply on October 30, 2009 5:42 am:

    It’s not a bad habit at all. Now, keeping those glyphs in for say… Northrend beasts in 10m ToC is probably not appropriate.

    Making use of the appropriate glyph for the situation is an opportunity lost on many early tanks (other classes too!). Glyphs are inexpensive, but the properly selected glyph for an encounter can make or break your success.

    Do I need a 2 minute shield wall for this fight? Do I need extra threat? Is there a taunt rotation that HAS to be made? Am I fighting multiple adds or just one?

    Using glyphs based on the situation is a great tool.

    [Reply]

34. Lindentree Says:
    October 27th, 2009 at 7:27 pm

    Thanks very much for the article Vene! Sorry if my (I will assuage my conscience by remarking it was only slightly!) out-of-place comment last week or so was part of what sparked it.

    I’m surprised to find you linking a spec without Focused Rage - I thought you were a member of the You’re Not Heroic Striking/Cleaving Enough camp. Though since 5-man tanking is largely AoE, I guess there’s little chance of being rage-starved.

    Regarding enchantments, what do you (and other readers of course) think of Lifeward - http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44494 ? Not factoring in cost, of course. Seems like, compared to Blood draining it would do more healing overall but not necessarily in critical situations. In raids I definitely see that blood draining would be better, but in pug 5-mans, where you’re not necessarily running with super competent/geared healers, the increased overall healing might be superior… thoughts?

    [Reply]

    Drae reply on October 30, 2009 5:45 am:

    Lifeward tends to not proc often enough, or for sufficient amounts to be useful outside of certain niches. Most often that heal is just overheal anyway.

    There are situations where it can be powerful. I attempted to utilize for tanking anub adds on heroic 25m; (separate weapon then normal tanking one) combined with the glyph of cleave I found it proc’d often enough, to aid in P3 a little, because you want to maintain low-ish health on that fight, I found it was not consistently overheal. However I have switched back to blooddraining as it’s far more effective.

    [Reply]

35. Skullkrushor Says:
    October 27th, 2009 at 8:35 pm

    Hey Vene,

    Ive been using the Borean Armor Kits (18+ Stam) on hands. Is the armor enchant really that much more effective health in most situations? I know it could equate to more EH for melee dmg hits, but in a magic dmg situation does it really give that much more?

    [Reply]

    Skullkrushor reply on October 27, 2009 11:23 pm:

    I guess what Im asking is: Is 240 Armor > 18 Stam in a mojority of situations?

    [Reply]

    Drae reply on October 28, 2009 9:30 am:

    That would depend on your individual stats.

    In most physical cases Armor is greater then stam. But Stam always works.

    There’s no definite “better” one. It’s entirely situational.

    [Reply]

    Bhig reply on October 28, 2009 12:50 pm:

    Someone above mentioned that the 240armour was eqv to 21 stam. How are they working that out? Isn’t all armour affected by diminishing returns? I was trying to work out my EH under both scenarios (+18Sta +240Arm) and it looked like the 240 armour was actually about 20EH lower than the +18sta (unbuffed though). 35.5k hp, 25.6k Armour. So for me it’s neither here nor there. Did I stuff up the maths?
    Anyway. I guess where I was mentally heading was, 240 must be better for those with lower armour, and about even for those with more (for physical damage fights).

    Drae reply on October 28, 2009 4:05 pm:

    The more HP’s you have the more valuable armor becomes.

    Check out the calculator at the top of the page.

    Bhig reply on October 28, 2009 5:33 pm:

    Effective health calculator? That’s what I was using.
    Anyway. I guess for my HP and Armour the difference between the two seemed to be nothing.
    Just to confirm.
    I work out my HP after all talents etc (incl +18 stam), do the calculator. Then repeat with the armour kit in place (armour after all talents).
    Compare and look at the effects of other raid buffs to try see what happens?

    Drae reply on October 30, 2009 5:54 am:

    Pretty much, if you had 1000 hps and 1000 armor (easy numbers) with no enchants, do 1018 hp and 1000 armor, then do 1000 hp and 1240 armor. Obviously you want the higher number. Remember that both are EH, but armor is damage reduction, and thus damage that doesn’t need to be healed, where-as stam will help you against magic, where armor fails.

    If your interested in more information on armor and how it scales Vs. HP check out:
    http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f63/41526-ac-stamina.html

    Usually I don’t worry about the math in Satrina’s posts; just try and understand the gist of it.

36. Mister K Says:
    October 28th, 2009 at 11:23 am

    That last paragraph should be on every tanking blog everywhere. Might be the most important thing to remember, You always hear so much about gear, gear, gear that people forget tanking isn’t all about gear its about knowing what to do with it

    [Reply]

37. Andenthal Says:
    October 28th, 2009 at 1:58 pm

    Violet Hold
    how to handle it #3

    The mobs will meet back up again on the stiars right before they reach the door (right about where the friendly NPCs are fighting mobs before you actaully start the event). Just tell your DPSers to chillax for 5 extra seconds (they shouldn’t be attacking them before the tank anyway), and the mobs will funnel back into 1 nice group on the stairs.

    [Reply]

    McBash reply on October 29, 2009 8:30 am:

    Yeah, but waiting for them to regroup isn’t nearly as fun as rounding them up and pulling them into a nice neat pile yourself. The point of running heroics before raiding is to learn how to handle situations similar to this. Plus, moves like that are how you start building your reputation as a solid player.

    [Reply]

    Asterix reply on October 29, 2009 12:02 pm:

    I don’t know any DPS that waits for anything before lighting up the targets. I suggest a new tank start learning the skills required to handle DPS who doesn’t care if you have aggro or not.

    [Reply]

    Andenthal reply on October 30, 2009 10:12 am:

    @ McBash
    Doing somthing just because it’s the harder way to do it, isn’t always right. Being flashy is all fine and good, but if it doesn’t really make the job any easier or quicker (which I honestly don’t think it does), then what point does it really make?

    @Asterix
    Usually letting the DPSers get their face bashed in on that pull slows them down for the rest of the instance. A tank is supposed to compensate for mistakes, not stupidity. A new tank will learn nothing when DPSers go balls out before he has established threat. New tanks do not know how to properly utilize their skills when playing with overzealous DPSers.

    All of this translates directly over to a raiding environment. I know about zero DPSers who attack a raid boss before the tank gets 2 solid attacks in. Why they feel the need to do it in a 5 man raid is beyond me. If 5 mans are “practice” for the “real stuff” (raids) - then practice like you play.

    [Reply]

38. evilredeye Says:
    October 29th, 2009 at 11:18 am

    an absolutely fantastic guide, I’m respeccing my arms pvp spec to prot as tanks are massively in demand on my server. This guide has really helped me out for one.

    Although I think already having the iLev 245 tank legs from koralon 25 is a bit of a sneaky cheaty way to start my prot gear off

    Cheers for the guide.

    [Reply]

39. Despil Says:
    October 30th, 2009 at 7:28 am

    Thanks Veneretio, i will give the build a go, but i am a little consirned about the loss of focused rage.I am starting to tank the heroics and want to tank them all to get the feel.I can get rage starved at the begginings of a pull(especially annoying if there is a DPS happy group), but after that inital spike im quite fine.However im a big fan of the Glyph of Cleaving(I use that,Devastate and Blocking) so if I take the Shield wall one, which should I replace:Devastate or Blocking?

    [Reply]

40. Kolben Says:
    October 30th, 2009 at 8:41 am

    On the money Vene, nice post!

    [Reply]

41. Despil Says:
    November 4th, 2009 at 6:19 am

    Hm…tried the spec and don`t like it.As i thougt, the lack of Focused rage held me back, really,really difficult to manage pulls without it on a not so well played group(i now do mostly PuGs heroics and normal,and as you know it has its good and bad days). As a rule, i do blood rage-charge(or Heroic throw)-SB-SS-TC-SW(if needed). but if i was required to burn my blood rage before a pull(CS) it lost momentum at TC as the mobs are not pounding me enoug to get enough rage for my devastates and SS(as i have to sometimes get the aggro back or taunt). it was soo annoying i had to switch back on the spec with 1 point in deep wound to get Focused rage. Maaaaaajooor difference

    [Reply]

    Steele reply on November 5, 2009 12:17 am:

    I use blood rage - charge -> thunderclap & cleave (my trash macro) -> shockwave -> demo shout (does agro too i think). after shockwave is done pop shieldblock for rage and start ur single-target work.

    This is just my way of tanking but i can surely tell that your wasting your shieldblock-uptime with triggering shockwave right after it. I also use the shockwave glyph & glyph of cleaving and actually hardly ever resort to shield slam or revenge.. usually just cleaving and thunderclapping/shockwaving the crap out of the mobs..

    of course this is for tanking groups of trash, not for starting a bossfight.
    another thing that helps greatly with agro is telling ur dps to attack the target your hitting and not go wild on random mobs.

    [Reply]

42. Sebas Says:
    November 6th, 2009 at 10:44 am

    Hi,

    I tryed this spect but is like what Steele said, I lose too much DPS tanking dps using this I think I would put 2 point in focus rage and lose the other 2.

    that should do the trick.

    thanks people

    [Reply]

Leave a Reply