Loading ...Reactions to Patch 3.3.2
Changes in this patch for us:
- Concussion Blow: The damage done by this ability has been reduced by 50%, but its threat generation will remain approximately the same.
- Devastate: This ability now deals 120% of weapon damage, up from 100% of weapon damage.
- Shield Slam: The damage scaling from block value for this ability now diminishes faster and diminishes starting at a lower block value. The difference should be negligible for players in high-end tanking armor. In addition, the threat caused by Shield Slam has been increased by 30%.
- Warbringer: This talent no longer allows Charge and Intercept to break roots or snares. Intervene remains unaffected.
Making the Best of the Bad
As a PvEer, it’s never fun to see your class getting mucked with due to PvP reasons, but that’s the cards we were dealt this patch. There’s no point in complaining about it, but it is important to understand how the changes have impacted the proper way for us to play in PvE.
The Concussion Blow nerf means that we can forget about using it anymore for any reason other than to stun something which will come as a relief to many that just ignored using it in their rotation anyway or disliked the complexity of our threat system in general.
Devastate received yet another buff which has had an interesting cascade effect. Revenge really just doesn’t keep up anymore which means that we’ve been gifted 2 free talent points in any spec that featured Improved Revenge. I mean sure, Revenge will still be useful in the rare situation that you’re rage starved, but that’s about it. Now are we at the point where slow weapons finally rein supreme? Nope, Heroic Strike spam still trumps all. (although, you’ll definitely want something nice and slow for Festergut when not tanking)
It’s been a sorry expansion for Shield Slam, once the most beloved Prot Warrior skill capable of putting out numbers that nearly had mages jealous. Now we’re left with the pure business bare bones. Is it super fun still? Not really. Will it still do the job? Absolutely. Keep using it and try avoid whining too much to your guild mates about what’s gone.
Warbringer, oh Warbringer… I can’t help, but wonder what changed so much to make this skill so powerful between the beginning of WotLK and now. (of course, it was gear) As far as raiding goes, the impact of this change will be minimal with really only the Faction Champions fight making you take notice. There are more than a few 5 mans though where it’ll take some getting used to before you realize that hammering the Charge key will not get you out of the snare you’re in.
The Big Picture: Simplicity
A threat system that once featured 5 skills now only features 3. Certainly a nice change for newer players. Better yet, accidentally Devastating instead of Shield Slamming will make less of a difference. Furthermore, if you’re caught using a slow weapon, it’s going to hurt you a lot less than it once did.
So, despite a small list of changes, this patch has some pretty big implications. It’s a pretty huge step towards making the Warrior class much friendlier towards newer players. I know a lot of you are going to hate that. I won’t deny that despite advocating changes to simplify how our class was played that I always took pride in the fact that I was playing probably the hardest tanking class in the game. I’m just not sure that’s the case anymore, but frankly, I don’t think it matters. Muscle memory makes it all easy in the end anyway.
The Big Question: DPS
Did the Devastate give us a massive DPS buff? Nope, not even close. Sorry, gang, this buff is in the low hundreds of additional dps not in the thousand range like you’d be hoping and praying for.
Where do we go from here?
Odd question. Why should where we are going change? You can’t complain both about content being too easy and about your class needing buffs. Sorry, it just doesn’t work that way.
I don’t know about you, but I’m still playing a fantastically, fun tanking class. I’m heading for the Lich King to steal myself the most exciting item I’ve seen in a long, long time. How ’bout you?
February 3rd, 2010 at 4:16 pm
In a raid setting, I am much more concerned about my threat output than my dps. In this case, Concussion Blow still has a role to play.
One thing that I think should be mentioned with this patch, is that our tier chest lost its defense. For tanks sporting more than one defense-less piece, this could lead to a surprise crit! Every tank should check their Def stat and make sure they are still uncrittable - I had to re-enchant my shield, for instance.
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February 3rd, 2010 at 4:27 pm
I don’t know why anybody would really complain about Shield Slam from a basic PvE perspective. I actually pulled aggro off my OT (who was generating a ton of threat on his own) with 4 stacks of Insignificance on Deathwhisper from a nice string of S&B procs.
With the gear I’m sporting the SBV coef nerf wasn’t even noticable to the damage SS was doing before and after…but holy jesus the threat is amazing.
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Everblue reply on February 3, 2010 4:31 pm:
“I don’t know why anybody would really complain about Shield Slam from a basic PvE perspective.”
Because it’s damage is less now. Damage is fun, threat is pointless and dull.
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Everblue reply on February 3, 2010 4:31 pm:
its
not it’s
sorry
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Hydrix reply on February 4, 2010 5:55 am:
In raid gear, even buffed, you won’t have the amount of block value necessary to reach the point where diminishing returns kick in. It’s a zero change to shield slam damage for 25 man tanks and a 30% threat increase. Considering my hunters WERE riding my threat tail prior to this patch I’m happy to now be a lot more comfortable in the threat department.
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Everblue reply on February 4, 2010 8:17 am:
What about when you have shield block up?
February 3rd, 2010 at 4:28 pm
MMm patch notes didn’t say anything abou devastate, why? I only see changes in Warbringer, Shield Slam and Concussion Blow.
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Jamcai reply on February 3, 2010 4:42 pm:
Never mind…. i just didn’t noticed it. I need to sleep.
So, do you suggest to remove 2 points from improved revenge?
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Veneretio reply on February 3, 2010 6:33 pm:
Yup.
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February 3rd, 2010 at 4:30 pm
I agree about the dps increase being pathetic. You don’t even consider the increase in dps of devastate, but really just the increase in devastate over conc blow and revenge, because you are using devastate instead of those abilities. When you factor in the shield slam - shield block nerf, I found my dps was lower than before when I tried it out today. Sigh.
(And to the poster above - I am yet to find a fight in ICC where I am run anything like close on threat. +threat is pointless in my experience unless there is a Hodir/Malygos fight where the dpsers get huge threat boosts. For GC to say it in any way compensates for the dps loss is at best disingenuous.)
Still, as you say, there is a tremendous sense of freedom in dropping two abilities from my action bars (I have room to put cleave into a place where my hand can actually reach it now), and the two extra talent points could go into dps talents or improved spell reflect (which I couldn’t really justify before).
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February 3rd, 2010 at 4:37 pm
So 2 points go from imp revenge to “puncture”?
New threat rotation is SS, Devastate, HS?
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Vivilros reply on February 3, 2010 5:07 pm:
I respecced last night, and really thought about whether or not to put anything into puncture, I ended up not doing it, just having Imp HS (went from Imp Demo shout and Piercing shout to DW) ended up making a pretty big difference, only starved myself about ten times
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Veneretio reply on February 3, 2010 6:34 pm:
I really dislike Puncture as a talent and don’t feel it’s worth spending points in. There’s numerous better options like Cruelty, Improved Spell Reflect, Shield Specialization, etc.
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February 3rd, 2010 at 4:41 pm
forgot shockwave… but that makes 4? I’m confused….
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Veneretio reply on February 3, 2010 6:35 pm:
Shield Slam, Shockwave, Concussion Blow, Revenge, Devastate now becomes…
Shield Slam, Shockwave, Devastate.
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mister six reply on February 3, 2010 11:37 pm:
Heroic throw on cooldown as well. WarWench basically figured the max dps rotation would be 12 ss, 25 devs, 2 sw, and 1 ht over the course of a minute. If I’m not mistaken that basically means ss > dev > dev is the basic rotation and keep hs uptime high and sw and ht on cooldown.
The really interesting thing is with revenge out of the shuffle there’s little difference with our main tanking and off tanking rotations.
Worth noting that the full devastate change doesn’t seem to be in. Also worth noting that GC actually PROMISED to buff revenge if he saw it fall out of rotations.
Warwench also posted that weapon dps and slower weapons have crested HS spam except in cases of remarkable HS uptime and even then only for tps not dps and that the tps differential is so slight that it would likely be made up by superior threat stats on the slower weapon.
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February 3rd, 2010 at 5:10 pm
I’m worried about how all these changes have effected prot leveling. I leveled my warrior alt from 63 to 80 as prot and loved it. I was planning on doing the same to 85. (arm spec? what arms spec. Prot/Prot alt here)
So hopefully it won’t be too painful because I really don’t want to try and learn/gear up a different spec.
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Veneretio reply on February 5, 2010 4:18 pm:
A lot of what makes Prot leveling so strong is that we have so many disables in conjunction with enraged regeneration. None of those factors have changed, so I know I’ll still be leveling as Prot next expansion.
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February 3rd, 2010 at 5:26 pm
I still don’t know that I’d drop the 2 points from improved revenge. Single target threat isn’t much of any issue, I don’t mind the 2 points spent just for the added utility. My guild still runs Togc, and the utility for fights like faction champs. Just not sure if I’m ready to loose that quite yet.
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Everblue reply on February 4, 2010 2:07 am:
What utility? The stun?
Whenever I ran Faction Champs in TOGC my job was to bully the healer. There was rarely anything meleeing me so I never got to revenge.
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Vilhelmriker (Lothar Server) reply on February 4, 2010 2:32 pm:
I agree with krazey, I like the utility as well.
my 25 man runs 3 tanks. for saurfang, and as we’re working festergut, I switch to DPS, so I have one tank spec. I’m primarily a trash tank now, I’ve passed the “Main Boss tank” torch to others in my run. the utility of being able to interrupt mobs when nothing else will stop their casts means I’ll take whatever I can get my hands on, keep revenge in my rotation and be very happy I can keep mobs from doing damage.
I think the PvP nerfs are frakkin’ ridic. we’re prot warriors. we’re not SUPPOSED to be doing insane damage, and I’m sorry, I can still be killed in PvP if people have a clue. if this is the only thing Bliz can do, then bliz needs to rethink about how things are done, imo. it’s not like people go “CRAP, it’s a prot warrior!”
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February 3rd, 2010 at 6:26 pm
Ok so every1 and their mother is raving over this change.. To be honest i was too.
But after the first day of testing it out, my average Imp. Revenge still does more dmg. Than my average Devastate. This is incl. the higher crit chance on Dev. I don’t have the numbers here, but on every fight today be it 5 mans, 10 mans or 25 mans the picture remains the same for me, i had skada running all day and was checking it after every instance.
Yes dev. has the chance of reseting the cd on SS. put im not convinced that it will be enuf.
Maybe im missing something i don’t know, but im not sold on dropping revenge yet. Gotta do some more testing tomorrow. But for now revenge stayed in my rotation.
One thing i did notice today was the increased threat on SS, i accidently pulled off my OT today a few times.
So to recap for now. CB is gone for me it is only used for trash interrupt or stun, thats it nothing else. Dev hits alitlle harder now nothing to rave over imo, SS does more threat. And lastly revenge seems to still pull its weight, but only just.
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Dread reply on February 4, 2010 5:51 am:
Revenge only pulls weight DPS-wise, and very close to Devastate. The main point here is that Devastate did more threat before and now does even more +damage, rendering Revenge useless.
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marklar reply on February 4, 2010 12:44 pm:
not true if you’re not having threat issues. if revenge is still doing more damage than devastate, then i’m going to keep using it.
on top of that, i will NEVER remove it from my bars because of its very low rage cost - i frequently find myself in situations where it’s the only ability that’s lit up.
not to mention that unless you’re in a situation where your rage bar is always full, using revenge > devastate will mean you can HS more, so i’m not even convinced that dropping revenge will mean higher tps.
i don’t know about everyone else, but it’s still a rare fight for me that i can completely ignore rage.
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Dread reply on February 5, 2010 6:14 am:
You’re leaving out that revenge has about a 10%ish chance to crit in 25 mans, and devastate is closer to 25+%, which procs deep wounds as well. Not to mention, devastate scales much better with AP, and in many situations is more damage than revenge even now. It’s rumored that they buffed it wrong as well and will further increase the damage.
I’ll agree that I won’t take revenge off my bars, but it’s used so infrequently that I won’t talent it. The comment about using it with heroic strike in a low rage situation is ignorant though, you shouldn’t use heroic strike at all unless you’re at least 40 rage strong. Below that you run the risk of not being able to use your GCD abilities, and from your post you probably don’t watch your rage because it seems like you HS it into the ground quite frequently.
marklar reply on February 5, 2010 5:24 pm:
thanks for calling me ignorant - very nice of you. however, i do watch my rage and i don’t “HS it into the ground”.
if you read more carefully, you’ll see i didn’t say i use HS with revenge in low rage situations. what i said was using revenge will allow you to HS more over the course of a fight (as opposed to dropping revenge in favor of devastate).
using revenge over devastate will mean you have more total rage left over to HS with. in other words, you will be at that >40 rage scenario more often.
Veneretio reply on February 5, 2010 11:55 pm:
Definitely agree that Revenge shouldn’t be removed from your action bar. It’s still very valuable in low rage situations which do exist. Also, easy guys, play nice
Dread reply on February 8, 2010 5:50 am:
Dunno where you got that I’m calling you ignorant. Think what you want though. Also, after Friday’s hotfix, devastate definitely does more damage.
Agreed, I won’t be taking Revenge off my bar ever, because it is useful in sub-10 rage situations. It’s just been moved further down and un-talented.
February 3rd, 2010 at 7:18 pm
anyone dropping conc blow and vig from their spec completely? the patch may free up 4 talent points for this guy.
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Veneretio reply on February 3, 2010 7:44 pm:
Interesting idea, that may be the way to go.
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mister six reply on February 3, 2010 11:39 pm:
I had considered it but conc blow is still a useful tool for caster interrupts. I certainly appreciated it tonight on the dreamwalker fight and the caster adds there.
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mister six reply on February 4, 2010 7:14 am:
and I also still find some value in vigilance in taunt switch fights.
February 3rd, 2010 at 11:03 pm
Well, I have to agree with Vene with these all “Oh! Let’s be a friendly warrior to the new players!” thing. For me, I understand why Blizz would considered such a thing. They’ve been doing it in WoTLK, and I believe they are going to do it again in Catalysm, reduce the challenge and give the opportunities to the majority of non-hardcare players. Meh, changes are not bad, we just gotta adapt and make the most out of it.
I believe the threat bonus is awesome, but somehow I feel like we can’t contribute to the raid with a little (tiny, infact) DPS anymore. I really do hope that we won’t ended up like some game that rely only on gears to get going in end-game content. Maybe one day we might has to spam 1 skill for the entire content! lol
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Seph reply on February 4, 2010 8:59 am:
We talk about that in guild all of the time.
Dps will have 1 button called - Damage
Tanks will have 1 button called - Tank
Healers - Heal
And Pallies - I win
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February 4th, 2010 at 12:36 am
I ran my first couple heroics yesterday, and noticed diddly-doo, no changes whatsoever. I certainly didn’t notice any magical Devastate improvements, the 20% difference was not showing in the numbers I pulled.
I am struggling with not hitting so many buttons. My muscle memory demands that I still use everything in my arsenal, including Revenge, CB and Shockwave on every CD, so I will need to start rebinding CB and Revenge to different places on my bars. I don’t want to be reduced to a 3-button tank. :/
I am tanking my next raid the coming weekend, so I’ll look closely at the numbers, but I don’t think I’ll see any DPS difference. I could care less about threat because my threat output has always been pretty good, so all those threat boosts to our abilities do nothing for me.
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Namthe reply on February 4, 2010 6:11 am:
I compared last week’s wednedsday night raid with this weeks earlier today. Wearing exactly the same set of gear in both I saw Devastate with 5 sunders up hit for about 2.7k on average before (non-crit) and 3.2k afterward.
Confusingly, shield slam hit harder too (though only slightly). Overall dps was up about 10%. So a worthwhile change, if not enough of one.
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Namthe reply on February 4, 2010 7:45 am:
I should mention the above numbers are probably inflated by about 50% as the fight I was using to compare was festergut.
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February 4th, 2010 at 1:04 am
Well, I, for one, noticed an improvement in DPS after the patch. It ended up being around 150-200 dps. Not a lot, but still an improvement. I also like the idea of dropping conc blow from my spec now. I may give that one a try. More importantly, though, I’ve yet to see any numbers in regards to this new shield slam debuffing. What’s the new cap? When does DR start to kick in? I’d like to know so I can tweak some gear sets around to make sure I’m not waisting stats. I know blizzard said it wouldn’t affect tanks in high end gear, but I normally don’t tank heroics in “high end gear.” I just don’t see a point to having 45k health for heroc UK. I tank heroics in max dps while tanking gear, which used to mean SBV being a nice stat. I’m guessing based on previous numbers that the new starting point for DR is probably what, 1800, 1900 SBV? Anyone have any clue?
BTW for anyone interested, and I may be wrong, but I think the new cap on max shield slams for lvl 80s is near or around 12500 now. I’ve yet to see it go past that exact number.
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Desmurick reply on February 4, 2010 1:16 am:
On a side note, despite conc blow being silly now and threat not being an issue, vig is still very nice to throw on your fellow tanks for progression fights. 3% less damage can make or break a fight where you find yourself getting down to 1k or less at times. For that reason, if nothing else, I’m a fan of it for anything not yet on farm.
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marklar reply on February 4, 2010 12:46 pm:
in any progression raid, you’re likely to either have either sanctuary or a disc priest - neither of which stacks with vigilance, unless i’m mistaken.
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Ridlyblade reply on February 5, 2010 7:17 am:
Talking with my disc priest his 3% stacks but sanctuary doesn’t
February 4th, 2010 at 1:12 am
I found the extra baked in threat on SS to be an annoyance more than anything. I tank with another warrior and we were pulling off each other depending on who got the most S&B procs.
We didn’t need any more threat. Hate to sound rude but, if you had threat issues before, you were doing it wrong.
I preferred playing a “harder” class of tank with more than 2-3 buttons. We could use some quality of life improvement on HS, but I don’t think our class needed to be made easier to play for new people.
Blizzard could just do a better job explaining its mechanics to new players with an instruction manual describing the basics for each role. Instead they rely on fan sites to provide the information.
No wonder so many new players have a hard time. They just want to play the game, not spend hours searching the internet.
The game dosen’t need to be easier, it needs to be explained better up front by them in my opinion.
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Veneretio reply on February 4, 2010 2:18 am:
They are aware of the HS issue, but since that issue is intertwined with rage itself, we won’t see this task tackled until Cataclysm. (well likely a bit sooner in patch 4.0, but at that point, it’s basically Cataclysm time) I don’t envy them. Rage poses an interesting problem with no clear good solution, just a lot of potential ideas to try out.
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Bodasafa reply on February 5, 2010 12:34 am:
Yes the HS comment was more a side note. I hope they find a new path for us in the rage department come Cata.
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Hydrix reply on February 4, 2010 6:13 am:
“We didn’t need any more threat. Hate to sound rude but, if you had threat issues before, you were doing it wrong.”
This statement, to me, proves that you aren’t running with insane hunters doing 9k+ single target dps on non gimmic fights.
My friend, I don’t like baked in threat anymore than the next guy, but this was a much needed buff to warrior threat as I would occassionally have problems on certain fights and could do nothing as I couldn’t push my buttons any faster.
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Seph reply on February 4, 2010 9:05 am:
I have to agree with the threat issues. I never have any and all of our pures do 9k plus on single target with some of them 10 to 11k.
the only one I ever have issues with is when our damn rogue tott our enhammy during BL with dogs popped literally right at the beginning of the fight. That bastard will crank out some threat and almost pulled rotface off of me last night.
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tPaste reply on February 8, 2010 7:51 pm:
I agree with Hydrix. If you’ve never had threat problems you’re dps is doing it wrong. If you’ve never been jealous of pally threat, then they’re probably are doing it wrong. We definitely needed the threat buff. We also need a more substantial dps increases.
…and that’s ignoring aoe threat where we lag behind pathetically.
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Drae reply on February 10, 2010 6:36 am:
I disagree, single target threat was hardly a problem; and did not need to be buffed.
The only true advantage to the SS threat buff is during AoE tab targeting.
I’ve got a fury warrior that normally sits at 10k dps, and while I do lose aggro to him in trash packs, never do on boss fights, nor was he ever within 15%.
But anecdotal evidence doesn’t help and only fuels the hyperbole, if your benefiting from the increased threat on SS then I’m happy someone got something.
Clyde reply on February 11, 2010 8:55 am:
As both a warrior and a hunter… you are having threat issues with hunters? Aren’t they using misdirect? As a hunter, I’m the master of aggro management… I can feign, I can misdirect… you may be having problems with other classes, but hunters should never get aggro and should be buffing yours significantly.
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February 4th, 2010 at 5:58 am
I don’t care how many buttons I have to push, or how “easy” it is for new tanks who are still inexperienced, uneducated, and entirely green. Whether it’s 3 buttons or 20, MY threat is still high as hell. Only question I have is where to stick the two points at this time. I have them in puncture currently, probably thinking about putting them in SS or Imp Spell Reflect. I feel Cruelty is most effective for increasing Revenge crits, and since that’s out of the rotation and untalented, seems like a waste of 2 points when all of the abilities I use in my rotation now have 25-30%+ crit raid buffed.
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February 4th, 2010 at 5:59 am
Vene, I’m not buying the whole “dump 2 points from imp revenge” argument. Last night, using ardent guard (heroic version), my devastates were hitting for about 2200 and critting for about 4500 on a fully debuffed sindragosa. My revenge hits are still doing about 2500 and critting just over 5k. Improved, it’s still more damage and you said so in one of your previous articles that DPS > TPS as long as you’re not losing aggro.
I find it so hard to believe we’d want to lower our dps further.
Your mileage may vary depending on your weapon, but revenge is still more damage for me so I can’t see myself dropping imp revenge.
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Zo reply on February 4, 2010 6:57 am:
I believe you’re looking at it the wrong way. Something you have to remember is that Sword and Board bakes in an extra 15% crit to devastate. If you were to take a large sample size of say 50 Devastates and 50 revenge you’ll find the average damage (hits and crits included) of the 2 will be in imp revenge’s favor but it’s very marginal. So marginal it’s hard to justify putting 2 points in.
In fact modifying Wartotems spreadsheet to accommodate the patch changes I actually find I do more dps going 2/5 cruelty 0/2 imp revenge running a rotation of SW>SS>DEV versus a 0/5 cruelty 2/2 imp revenge spec with a rotation of SW>SS>REV>DEV. Again not much more dps. Certainly not the 5-10% I was hoping for to catch up to those pallys.
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Kobeathris reply on February 4, 2010 7:04 am:
Bear in mind, they have stated that Dev isn’t buffed the way it is supposed to be. It was intended to be 20% more damage on the whole shebang, not just on the weapon damage portion. Once that goes through, it should be more damage than revenge, improved or not. Also, don’t forget to factor deep wounds into your numbers, as Devastate is putting out 15% more than Revenge is.
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Hydrix reply on February 4, 2010 7:27 am:
After I posted this I did remember that devastate does have 15% more chance to crit in addition to having been intended to do more damage on the sunder stack portion. Since that’s currently sitting at (IIRC) 202/sunder, it should give another 200 damage (400 crit) on top of the recent buff, which may push it over revenge.
HOWEVER, I saw a recent blue post by ghostcrawler PROMISING that if revenge go to a point where it was no longer used in the rotation that they would buff it. I believe we’re pretty damn close if not there already. My intuition is that they’d most likely revert imp revenge to its original 50% increased damage to prevent all specs from receiving such a buff.
Perhaps I will consider respecing until they’ve fixed revenge.
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Kobeathris reply on February 4, 2010 8:20 am:
Right now, its a scaling issue with revenge. In order to fix it they need to do 2 things.
1 - Make base revenge include a weapon damage portion (and reduce the base damage to compensate if need be)
2 - Make improved revenge apply to the AP part of the damage as well as the base damage, the current setup just makes those talent points get worse over time, regardless of whether or not revenge is better than devastate.
Doing #2 only would fix it for now, doing both would fix it longer term so they don’t have to revisit it. They might not care anyway though, since they are probably figure they are redoing everything for Cataclysm anyway.
February 4th, 2010 at 8:35 am
Been reading TankingTips for years now and this is the first time I have ever been confused by a post. So we actually believe now that Revenge should just be dropped altogether from our rotation? I don’t think I’m getting why it would hurt to continue using it?
I think tonight I will remove it from my rotation and see if I have a threat/dmg increase. Praying that is not the case.
P.S. Blizz don’t make us 969 please. Let the folks that want to play the challenging classes do so. they are doing similar simplifications to Warlocks and that has my wife super depressed.
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February 4th, 2010 at 8:53 am
Mr Vene.
With the change to devestate making it on par/better than revenge, should we be thinking of dropping the Glyph of Revenge for something a little more useful?
Your BFF Skel
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Veneretio reply on February 4, 2010 2:22 pm:
Haha, yes, definitely, you’ll also see me spec out of Improved Revenge in the coming days too.
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mister six reply on February 4, 2010 5:26 pm:
I personally already have:
http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=1&tal=3502000023000000000000000000000300000000000000000000000000043351025000212521330113321
Using the following glyphs:
Glyph of Shield Wall
Glyph of Devastate
Glyph of Barbaric Insults
Glyph of Thunder Clap
Glyph of Command
Glyph of Mocking Blow
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February 4th, 2010 at 9:19 am
Sooo… I am probably going for a new glyph choice… Barbaric insults, shieldwall and devistate for bosses.
Mocking blow could make it into your rotations for single target fights as a mini missdirect on threat. Meaning with the minor and major glyph this could be used to propell your threat up quickly.
Is glyph of blocking viable in the ICC environment with the nonstop nerfs to block value and the obvious gear choices favoring armor, dodge, parry stats?
I would argue it isnt, just looking for a few opinions.
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Kavtor reply on February 4, 2010 10:14 am:
Taking less damage is taking less damage. Blocking may not reduce your damage intake by a lot, but it’s still something, and there aren’t many glyphs that can do that.
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mister six reply on February 4, 2010 5:28 pm:
It’s not. And while threat isn’t always an issue having the glyphs to make mocking blow into a threat monster is a nice tool for tank transition fights. It means the offtanks don’t have to as courteous when you’re in the driver’s seat.
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February 4th, 2010 at 9:41 am
Something for those of you comparing Dev his vs. Revenge hits. Remember you can spam Dev as fast as you can hit the button, you still have to wait for Rev. to come up. With the dodge nerf in ICC this isn’t as frequent. So even if Rev. is hitting for twice as much it isn’t worth it if you can only use it 1/3 as often.
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Kavtor reply on February 4, 2010 10:12 am:
What?
You can use it one every 6 seconds, and even with chill, picking armour over avoidance, it’s easy to get 45%+ avoidance. There shouldn’t be a problem replacing a devastate with a revenge.
Is shockwave worth using because you can only use it every 20 seconds, even though it hits harder than devastate? Of course.
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Dread reply on February 5, 2010 6:23 am:
Although I’m still not using it in my rotation until it’s buffed, I will attest to revenge ALWAYS being available in ICC. There hasn’t been a time where I’ve tried to use it and couldn’t.
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February 4th, 2010 at 10:09 am
I’ve got another vote for not dropping revenge from your rotation.
The shield slam buff gives us a hilarious amount of threat, and even with the change in crit rate, revenge is still hitting harder raid buffed than devastate. (at least, for me, YMMV)
I don’t use revenge in 5 mans (slow DPS 1 hand, 2pc T9, 2pc T8 for fun devastates) but in raids, revenge still works.
Plus, with all the casting most bosses do now, you’re going to have low rage situations where revenge is a great filler.
That said, if devastate becomes a flat +20% buff, rather than just an extra 20% weapon damage, those numbers could change.
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Veneretio reply on February 5, 2010 4:22 pm:
It is becoming the better scenario, so it’ll be interesting to see if Devastate does now in fact pass Revenge in every single way.
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February 4th, 2010 at 10:29 am
Ven,
If we’re dropping revenge from the rotation why do you still have it glyphed in your DW build?
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Veneretio reply on February 4, 2010 2:24 pm:
Because I haven’t got around to changing it, yet. You’ll see it gone in the coming days.
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February 4th, 2010 at 12:06 pm
Concussion Blow does less damage but the same amount of threat. Why are we dropping it from our rotation? I’m certainly not.
The primary reason Devastate is better than Revenge now in the threat department is because of the Glyph of Devastate. It gives you threat even after 5 stacks of sunder as if you were applying 2x Sunder each swing. Without the Devastate Glyph improved Revenge really isn’t much worse, and is better in some situations.
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Kavtor reply on February 4, 2010 3:29 pm:
Unless you’re having threat problems, damage is better than threat. Any threat more than what’s required to hold agro is just a number with no value. More damage is always good.
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February 4th, 2010 at 12:25 pm
I kept CB in my spec and bars, the fact its threat isn’t affected is enough reason for me to keep it. I certainly use it less often, though.
As for Revenge, it still gives me better damage than Devastate. I still use it. If I happen to be in situation where threat is an issue, I might just try to use it less the profit of more Devastate but, right now, I just don’t think there is any reason to do so.
All in all, no real change in my play style and my threat has clearly increased even if I don’t think it was needed. I guess that satisfies people who like big TPS numbers. lol?
DPS: It’s nice to feel like you are contributing to the group DPS. I’m sure I would have liked a little more love in regards to that… but what I like more is still being chosen to tank encounters instead of druids or palys that can do 30%+ damage than me. Bring the player, not the class?
I don’t think there is any good reason to complain. Warriors have always been a challenging class to play, and apparently it is also a challenging class to design. Like it or re-roll.
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February 4th, 2010 at 1:28 pm
I’m kind of wondering why they didn’t give Concussion Blow the same treatment Deep Freeze got for PVE. Sure, drop the base damage for PVE concerns, but give a bonus to enemies that are permanently stun-immune. The mechanics are already developed, of course, as it works for Deep Freeze. You end up with a DPS increase that doesn’t really help us on trash (as most trash is stunnable), does not affect PVP, and gives a DPS boost where you really need it — bosses, where that 2K DPS difference between tanks means something sometimes.
Additionally, it becomes an easy to adjust talent, such as HfB for rogues. You could twink the stun-immune bonus damage freely, as it would have no PVP consequence.
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February 4th, 2010 at 1:40 pm
CB was never about threat - it was about damage per global.
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Dread reply on February 5, 2010 6:29 am:
This.
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February 4th, 2010 at 4:07 pm
I wonder if the 2 points out of Imp. Revenge could go into Imp. Rend and use the glyph of rending on top of that. A 21s DoT shouldn’t affect our rotation very much.
Has anyone tested that?
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Lindentree reply on February 4, 2010 6:33 pm:
IIRC Rend was supposed to be a decent threat generator before the 3.2 Devastate buff, and if it was eclipsed by Dev before it’ll be even more so now.
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Kavtor reply on February 4, 2010 7:44 pm:
Yup. Rend is a fun idea, but it doesn’t do enough to be worth the hassle.
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February 5th, 2010 at 1:25 am
(sorry for my english, i’m a french people).
You seems to say that DPS > TPS if we are free in threat (~more than 20% hunt’s threat).
Why we should’nt use a slow weapon like Axe 2.6 lvl258 on Anub25hm. Many slow weapon have nice stats like agi endu and hit which could certainly replace def and parry/dodge ?
The bonus dmg won isn’t better that the innate threat on HS we’re going to loose ?
(I’m really sorry for my english, OMAGAD).
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Dread reply on February 5, 2010 6:31 am:
When your hunters are pulling 12k dps you’ll think less of damage and worry more about threat. You can’t put Vigilance on 17 people at once.
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Steele reply on February 8, 2010 3:07 am:
1 or 17 doesnt make a difference.
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Dread reply on February 8, 2010 5:52 am:
So incredibly far from the point.
February 5th, 2010 at 1:31 am
I’m not really sure what
“Concussion Blow: The damage done by this ability has been reduced by 50%, but its threat generation will remain approximately the same.”
means.
It could be “we nerfed the damage and left innate threat where it was before, which would be a nerf threatwise.
Or it could mean the damage was reduced but the overall threat will remain as it was before (innate threat was buffed).
If the second is true, there wouldn’t be a reason to drop CB from our rotation.
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Dread reply on February 5, 2010 6:32 am:
Either way, CB was about damage anyway, it has no innate threat other than from the damage. The only reason it was in the rotation was to increase DPS.
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Elunesbuddy reply on February 5, 2010 9:20 am:
Then how are they able to say the threat should remain unchanged? Maybe they added a ratio dmg/threat in there to double the threat per damage since damage went down by 50%.
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Dread reply on February 5, 2010 12:36 pm:
I think you’re reading too far into it. IIRC the tooltip for CB never said “and also adds a high amount of threat”, it was only damage + defstance modifier. Taking that in effect, they either A) kept the threat in line with damage, therefore bringing the threat down as well, or B) stealth added innate threat to an ability that had none. Have to see some testing to confirm either or. In any case how much threat do you think it is? Is it still more than dev? If not, use for stuns on stunnable mobs and call it good.
February 5th, 2010 at 10:48 am
Not sure if this has been covered but a blue post said that they are hot fixing devistate to provide additional damage not just additional weapon damange.
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Dread reply on February 5, 2010 12:37 pm:
That was mentioned above somewhere. The 20% is supposed to be an over all buff, not just to the weapon damage (since most of us are using 1.5-1.7 speed weapons).
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Veneretio reply on February 5, 2010 4:21 pm:
It wasn’t, but you’re right that they’re hot fixing the change to work as intended.
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February 5th, 2010 at 12:53 pm
Done a quick pre-test of the use of Rend in my rotation (unglyphed, unspec).
On the course of a minute, I have done 4 Rends (15s each, 60s total). That accounted for 9387 damage. Then looking at my Avg. damage for Devastate: 2356 (averaged on the all fight, 16 devastates total - 22% crit avg.). Total: 9424 damage out of 4 Devastates.
4 devastate: 9424 dmg
4 rend: 9387 dmg
Note this was on 10man, without an Arms warrior and an overall pretty light melee group..
It’s close enough to me to want to do some more testing with maybe 2/2 Imp. Rend and Glyph of Rending.
The next hotfix on Devastate will probably give it the lead. Although I would have loved to put Rend on my action bar
More buttonz!
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Bhig reply on February 8, 2010 8:50 pm:
I actually have rend available to me on my action bars normally.
Not for threat or dps, but for the rogue in our raid. Providing I remember to re-apply rend every 45 seconds or so, it saves him having to apply garrotte to get . Sorry, can’t remember the name. But at any rate, for little or no real penalty to me (except in a one or two fights where every GCD counts) I free him up to do more dps. He likes it, and it doesn’t worry me.
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February 5th, 2010 at 3:06 pm
Has anyone compared how Imp. Rend compares to Imp. Revenge?
I’m thinking of dropping the Imp. Revenge and since I have points to play with in the Arms tree my hope is maybe the damage lost from Imp. Revenge can be made up through the Imp. Rend (with Incite/Deep Wounds).
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Veneretio reply on February 5, 2010 4:20 pm:
Imp. Rend really isn’t worth the cooldown.
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February 6th, 2010 at 3:10 am
So I didn’t believe you guys about Revenge falling behind Devastate and decided to check myself after last nights ToC-Onyxia-Malygos-Patchwerk raid (all 10 man). I wore a slow iLvl251 1h axe for Jaraxxus’ adds, and my ArP/AP gear with the same axe for Faction Champions. Values would be skewed slightly in favor of Devastaste due to this.
What I found was that, overall and including Devastate’s higher crit chance, my Revenge still hits for 300-400 damage more than Devastate. That, coupled with the very low rage cost of Revenge, keeps it in my rotation still.
Note, I use a mix of 232-251 gear, had BoK and Trueshot Aura during most of the fights. I’m using an Imp. Demoralizing Shout spec and thus don’t have access to Impale or Deep Wounds. Also, I’m still specced into Improved Revenge and won’t drop it after these findings.
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Lindentree reply on February 9, 2010 2:46 pm:
So you’re willing to spend 2 whole talent points for an average of 300-400 more damage every 6 seconds, or in other words 50-67 dps?
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Veneretio reply on February 9, 2010 4:17 pm:
Keep in mind that by the look of the date of his comment, Devastate wasn’t properly buffed yet. So, he may have changed his opinion. (not unlike my friend and local devil’s advocate, Kavtor
)
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Khordam reply on February 9, 2010 4:49 pm:
True, I did do the testing before the full buff. Regardless, I’m horribly reluctant to give up revenge… I don’t want to! Not to mention that, even if I did and I gave up the talent points as well, I’m entirely clueless as to where those two points should go. I can’t reach Impale either way, two more into Fury seems pointless (Commanding Presence, perhaps? But then, I’d rather max it completely, for which I’d have to give up more), and in Prot, well, I have a secondary spec with imp. Disarm and imp. Spell Reflect already, do I want to have either of those in my 10-man raid tanking build? So really, I can’t see any place where those points would be vastly better spent.
February 8th, 2010 at 9:24 am
dropped imp revenge, finished my shield wall talents and put the other point to give me 2/3 in deep wounds.
So I did get a nice 2.6 axe out of 10 man ICC that I put accuracy on for a threat set. I then for grins swapped out the blocking glyph for cleave and added enough dps gear to get me right at 540 and this is how I roll now in heroics. 3k dps is a lot of fun from a tanks perspective.
I made 20 glyphs of cleaving and 20 glyphs of barbaric insults. I guess I should make 20 glyphs of blocking, folks be telling me that it is still worth it. I really like the threat you can get with mocking blow and both glyphs for bosses however.
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Dread reply on February 8, 2010 9:58 am:
You can even drop down to 535 in heroics mate.
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athelia reply on February 8, 2010 10:32 am:
yep but with the gear swapping 540 worked out just perfect.
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Dread reply on February 9, 2010 5:34 am:
Was just making sure you’re aware, some still don’t know this stuff.
February 8th, 2010 at 10:09 am
So is the argument that Revenge not be used advocated because Devastate can be used every GCD and it does more DPS? Regardless if it helps with proc’ing S&B?
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athelia reply on February 8, 2010 10:37 am:
both help proc sword and board. What you have to look at is… Revenge has cooldown, uses 2 talents, procs S&B and does similar dmg as devastate.
Now if you use glyph of devastate, have t9 bonus, use a slow weapon you still proc S&B, does comparable dmg, free up 2 talent points and more threat.
I still use revenge in the rotation in low rage situations. But in boss tanking situations it is not really necessary.
Sorry its just my 2 copper. I will let Vene and others do the math over all.
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February 8th, 2010 at 2:56 pm
Ok..
So..
Revenge + Imp Revenge is not enough damage to warrant the talent points. And I guess the stun component is a nice to have.
In general, do people feel it’s a nice enough to have feature that they’ll keep it?
I just think back to all the raiding and there have been plenty of times when a lucky timed revenge stun stopped a spell caster at the right moment. It’s a hard value to quantify.
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Bhig reply on February 8, 2010 2:57 pm:
Oh. And I’m slightly disappointed by the reduction of our “rotation” down to just three skills. Seems kinda boring.
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Dread reply on February 10, 2010 7:16 am:
GC said specifically that if he sees a lot of warriors dropping revenge from their rotations, they will buff revenge to make it usable again. I’m advising everyone I meet to do this, hoping it will make revenge effective for threat and damage again without nerfing another ability further. I would say making it a threat buff would be best, more damage would outperform shield slam dps-wise.
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February 8th, 2010 at 3:07 pm
On a somewhat related topic what kind of avg tps are you guys seeing in 25 man raids? I know there are many different situations where you may be moving or getting tott or MD’s or whatever but I mean in general what is the range? I seem to find myself somewhere between 7k tps and 10k sustained tps depending on what was going on.
I don’t have another warr tank in my guild to compare to and I was just wondering what all of you fine tanks out there were pulling.
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Corto reply on February 9, 2010 2:26 pm:
fwiw, those numbers sound reasonable to me (I’m kinda halfway thru ICC-25 and my gear iLevel is around 250-255 average).
iirc I’m usually looking to break 5 figures when possible, although the other day Omen reported 30k+ (can’t remember what I was doing when that happened ..I went into shock and passed out happy) !
As you say, depends on encounter, and also the gear choices; and that’s all from memory so could be inaccurate …but yeah, for sustained TPS, 7-10k sounds about right from my experiences so far.
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February 8th, 2010 at 8:04 pm
Why do you like Troggbane so much?
My guess is it’s because you’re an Orc…but if you weren’t would you still like it so much?
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Veneretio reply on February 9, 2010 2:34 am:
It’s absolutely because I’m an Orc.
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February 8th, 2010 at 8:58 pm
Alright. So. After half a raid with the new devastate fix, revenge isn’t in the rotation anymore.
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Veneretio reply on February 9, 2010 2:35 am:
Well at least we get 2 free points now
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absø reply on February 9, 2010 7:11 am:
And one free hand to play … :/
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February 9th, 2010 at 12:56 am
So are you still using glyph of devastate?
I replaced it so i’m now using glyph of blocking, shield wall and last stand.
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Kavtor reply on February 9, 2010 6:12 pm:
I’m sticking with it for now, just because I love how fast sunders go up with double applications. It’s great for burst raid DPS on new adds.
On the other hand, the threat buffs have our threat at pretty hilarious levels, and I’m wearing a gear set with abysmal levels of hit and expertise. So the extra 5% threat is pretty trivial.
Taunt and Last stand are both good choices, although personally it irritates me when I a fight forces me to glyph them. Devastate is fun because it looks like it’s doing something all the time.
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Veneretio reply on February 9, 2010 10:55 pm:
What I’m currently running is Glyph of Shield Wall, Glyph of Taunt and Glyph of Blocking. Depending on the fight, I swap one of them for Glyph of Devastate. For instance, the Putricide fight really only has 1 point where you want to use Shield Wall so it’s better to have Glyph of Devastate in place of Glyph of Shield Wall.
Long ago someone on here mentioned that they don’t run Glyph of Last Stand. (that or Kav mentioned it to me in an email, hard to remember) So, I tried it out and haven’t really missed it. If Hard modes have a fight that particularly benefits from 2 minute Last Stands then you’ll see me back using it, but for the time being, I consider it pretty unnecessary.
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Kobeathris reply on February 10, 2010 7:08 am:
The thing with last stand is, I almost always use it with Enraged regeneration, because if I need to last stand for some reason, chances are, a powerful hot is a good thing to have too. Enraged regen is on a 3 minute ticker, same as last stand, that works out well for me.
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February 9th, 2010 at 12:21 pm
ok well this is not making a difference…the fun aspect of this whole “nerf” has been reduced…but threat so the total machanics of acutal tanking has been helped out..b4 the patch i hit 10-11k sheild slams on Anub in 25 ToTC and since then ive only been able to hit 8-9k ish sheild slams but i pull alot more threat with them. im upset about the CB nerf but it makes tanking easier but in the same matter less challenging and therefore less fun. Dev is buffed which is good cuz i spam that and HS when Revenge and SS is on CD, which pulls alot of threat. But still revenge isnt getting moved from my rotation..cuz i pull about 8-9k threat per second which is still insane but i have my low rage moments when i let off the HS gas petal.
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February 10th, 2010 at 7:27 am
My average devastate (spreadsheet) does ~2800 damage and ~9000 threat. My average imp. revenge is ~2700 damage ~5800 threat.
My average CB is ~1500 damage and ~8150 threat.
All numbers include increased avg. damage from increased chance to crit.
I use a 2.0s. With my numbers neither c. blow, nor imp. revenge are better per GCD then devastate; in either department.
As for increasing rage efficiency: assuming 3/3 FR, using the above average damage. The average damage of (standard) revenge is approximated.
Imp. Revenge: 1350 dmg/rage
Revenge: ~1125 dmg / rage
Increase in efficiency: 16.7% per talent point.
Dev /w 2/3 Puncture: 275 dmg / rage
Devastate: 229 dmg /rage
Increase in efficiency: 16.8% per talent point.
Both the puncture and Imp. Revenge talents increase your rage efficiency (dmg /rage) at the same rate per talent point per GCD. The puncture efficiency is applied to more attacks as we use sunder about 2x as often as revenge.
It makes sense to keep revenge on our bar for low rage situations, but in my mind it’s definitely not worth the talent points. Even when not improved revenge is still the best dmg/rage except for maybe a fully glyphed Mocking Blow. Revenge keeps it’s spot on the tool bar for the rage efficiency alone; but losses is spot in both my spec and standard rotation.
My two points went into Imp. Shield Spec. Close second was spell reflect (I’m thinking Sindragosa here) or (/shudder) puncture. Didn’t even consider cruelty.
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Dread reply on February 10, 2010 11:55 am:
I’ve switched back and forth between Shield spec and Puncture, and of the two I definitely like puncture better.
I’ve seen tanks fooling around with Safeguard as well, a talent that’s gotten zero serious use since inception. Could be usable as another CD for a Festergut tank perhaps, but seems a bit too gimmick-oriented to really have a use as a primary spec talent.
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Bhig reply on February 10, 2010 1:14 pm:
I think the only time I’ve ever used intervene’s ability purely as a damage redirection was on Gormok to soak up a hit when the tank currently targetting was getting a bit too punished.
Safeguard must’ve sounded like a cool idea when they first thought of it. But it’s so not worth the talent points. I wouldn’t mind seeing this changed to give it some utility of value. Maybe if it increased the threat reduction, or also buffed the warrior with some sort of damage reduction.
In general it makes me sad that there always seems to be some pretty clear cut good talents and some clear cut rubbish talents.
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Veneretio reply on February 10, 2010 1:36 pm:
If you’re considering Puncture, then I feel like you’re passing up a lot of great talents instead. After all, if you’re considering Puncture, you have to already have 3 points in Focused Rage. So, I’m curious what you’re avoiding. I really think that Cruelty, Shield Spec, Imp Disc, Imp Spell Reflect and Conc Blow/Vigilance are all superior choices to some points in Puncture.
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Dread reply on February 11, 2010 7:07 am:
Shield spec leaves a lot to be desired. I find myself scrapping for rage much more often with shield spec than with puncture. Already have Imp Disc as well. Cruelty….I’m looking at something like 35%~ crit on my main abilities raid buffed, I don’t think there’s much point in using it. I have conc and Vig as well, so the only other option here is imp spell reflect for 4% chance to be missed by targeted spells and a party reflect mechanic. I don’t know, none of them really jump out at me. For imp spell reflect, how many fights is that even good for? Perhaps Deathwhisper, but the shadow bolts are negligable, and you should always have interrupts on the frost bolts. I think that just leaves Sindragosa….there’s 1 fight in 12 to use the talent on. I’m still not convinced.
February 10th, 2010 at 1:34 pm
Safeguard is OP in pvp.
It was retarded OP in Faction champions prior to out gearing that encounter. Target a melee, when they focus a teammate mash the intervene button, they will not die.
But ya I’ve yet to find a real pve use for safeguard.
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February 10th, 2010 at 4:14 pm
With the hotfix on devastate I agree that those 2 points in Imp. Revenge don’t make sense anymore.
I have tried Imp. Rend with glyph and it barely competes with Devastate. So why bother.
I’m not sure I will notice the impact of putting 2 points Imp. Spell Reflection, I’m pretty sure it has its use but it can be achieve by using a second protection spec with more other defensive talents (without DW that is).
2/5 Cruelty has no use other than a little more DPS, but I guess it’s a decent choice. Not even talking about the added threat, we just don’t need it.
Puncture doesn’t make sense unless you have 3/3 Focused Rage. And if you have specced for Focused Rage, then I’m wondering if Puncture will help in any way, because that’s already a whole of rage savings…
I think I’ll just end up doing 2/3 Focused Rage since I already have 5/5 shield spec. I still happen to rage starve myself so I guess that will help, especially on the numerous fights where tanks are alternating.
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February 11th, 2010 at 6:50 am
Specced out of Imp Revenge in my DW build to try it out, put 1 point in Shield Spec to round it out and put the other one on Cruelty. 1% better DW chance is 1% better DW chance. The other options just didn’t seem worth it. Anger Mgmt? 1/2 Imp BL? 1/3 Puncture? None of them are exactly superstar choices but 1/5 Cruelty just seemed to be the least “meh” out of the bunch. No noticeable threat differences running the weekly raid quest or Ony25 last night. We’ll see how it holds up tonight in the Lower Spire.
Dumped it from my 5/15/51 boss survival spec too but I’m not 100% sold on what I came up with so that may require additional tweaking.
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February 17th, 2010 at 3:31 am
blue post on mmo-champion
Warrior
Revenge buff
I suspect we will buff Revenge to make it more attractive to push even in high rage situations.
i just want to say “lol”
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Veneretio reply on February 17, 2010 3:39 am:
Yup, the saga continues.
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Seph reply on February 17, 2010 3:03 pm:
This is precisely why I have not removed it yet. It is coming back with a vengence!
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Markior reply on February 18, 2010 2:16 am:
But currently devastate still better than revenge :p
the “buff” is not here yet
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February 19th, 2010 at 5:19 pm
PTR Notes for 3.3.3 “Revenge: Damage done by this ability (base and scaling) increased by 50%” Guess we may have to look at revenge again………….
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Dread reply on February 22, 2010 9:28 am:
/puts two points back in revenge and moves it back up the priority list on the bars……..
shhhhh
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