Loading ...The General Philosophy to Approaching Items
While certainly we all love Best-in-Slot lists and Pick orders, what is always lost amongst these is how to deal with the every day situations where we must choose between one average item and another. What stats are valuable? In particular, which 3 stats are valuable?
Why 3?
Every item these days you’ll notice gets 3 tanking type stats as well as some amount of Strength and Stamina. These 3 stats can be any of the following:
- Defense rating
- Dodge rating
- Parry rating
- Block rating
- Block value
- Bonus Armor
- Expertise rating
- Hit rating
The General Philosophy
Bonus Armor > Avoidance > Threat > Useless Stuff
1. Bonus Armor
The current premium stat and part of why the Frost emblem rewards are currently so valuable. Armor reduces how much damage you take from physical attacks by a percentage. This greatly increases your survival both while you are and while you are not getting healed.
2. Avoidance
Defense, Dodge and Parry round out the avoidance category for Warriors with Defense being the best of the three the later you get into the game. Perhaps, the biggest mistake I see new Warriors making is favouring threat/dps type stats over avoidance stats. On progression, you’re always better off avoiding more damage than doing more.
3. Threat
Expertise and Hit rating make up the Warrior threat category. For a long time, Expertise was considered a premium stat on level with if not exceeding avoidance stats, but if your focus is Icecrown then it’s not worth it anymore. Similarly, Hit rating continues to be weak with it’s most crucial use easily handled by using one of your Major Glyph slots on Glyph of Taunt.
4. Useless Stuff
Our last category consists of Block rating and Block value with the former slightly more desirable than the latter. Which is to say, the few fights where the Block mechanic is useful, you want to focus on Block rating and not worry about stacking Block value. For the majority of boss encounters though these stats are (like their category says) useless.
Putting the Philosophy to Work
Now that we know which stats are valuable, let’s approach them as sets of 3 rather than looking at them 1 vs 1.
1. Premium pieces
- Bonus Armor + 2x Avoidance (ie. Bonus Armor/Defense/Dodge)
Premium pieces such as Pillars of Might are seen on every Best-in-Slot list because they feature not only Bonus Armor, but also 2 Avoidance stats making them the ultimate survival pieces.
2. Strong pieces
- Bonus Armor + Avoidance + Threat (ie. Bonus Armor/Defense/Hit)
- 3x Avoidance (ie. Defense/Dodge/Parry)
Strong pieces lack the completeness of a Premium item, but since itemization isn’t perfect in this game, you’ll still see a number of these style of items in Best-in-Slot lists. A Strong piece differs from a Premium one by either missing out on that 2nd avoidance stat or by gaining a 3rd avoidance stat at the expense of Bonus Armor. When given the choice between 2 Strong pieces, the Bonus Armor version is superior, but the difference is pretty minor. (unlike moving between an entire category)
3. Solid pieces
- 2x Avoidance + Threat (ie. Defense/Parry/Hit)
There are 6 different combinations of Solid pieces, but they all amount to about the same with a slight edge going to those that feature Defense. Clearly, what makes these pieces Solid and not Strong is the “wasted” itemization on Threat rather than Bonus Armor or avoidance. The reasoning behind this is that Expertise and Hit simply don’t have a large impact on our dps and our threat is already high enough. (especially if you’ve used a Major Glyph slot on Glyph of Devastate)
4. Average pieces
- Avoidance + 2x Threat (ie. Defense/Expertise/Hit)
- 2x Avoidance + Useless Stuff (Defense/Dodge/Block rating)
Average pieces either focus too much on Threat or completely waste their itemization on one of the Block stats. As your gear progresses, you may end up using these pieces, but you shouldn’t be happy about it. These are the types of pieces that you won’t take even if you’re currently using a lower item level Premium/Strong piece.
5. Poor pieces
- Avoidance + 2x Useless Stuff (Defense/Block rating/Block value)
The stuff of nightmares, Poor pieces waste 2 slots on both Block stats. It’s not uncommon to keep pieces that are multiple item levels lower instead of “upgrading” to these. That said, on the few fights where Block shines, these pieces are amazing so it’s probably best to look at these pieces as highly situational rather than poor.
Strength in Lack of Numbers: Gem Slots
Even though a portion of an item’s budget is sacrificed to get them, Gem slots end up always being a significant gain in desirable tanking stats. This is due to the fact that this sacrifice will always steal at least a bit from Strength. The less Strength an item has the better because that means it’s using more of it’s budget on stats we actually want.
The more gems, the better philosophy is what makes loot from Hard modes so desirable since these pieces usually have more gem slots than pieces from Regular modes even when they’re the same item level.
Wrap Up
I can’t emphasize enough how much gearing for tanking is not about “balance” these days for Warriors. The difference in dps/threat between a set that’s capped out on Expertise and Hit and one that completely neglects it is negligible. Whereas the difference in survival between these 2 sets is massive. Focus on survival.
March 16th, 2010 at 1:07 pm
I think as a plate tanking class we have a pretty clear gear selection. Unlike my Alt Shammy where I need to go to Cloth and Leather to find an item to do the job.
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March 16th, 2010 at 1:22 pm
I think it is really ironic that as a class that must use a shield when tanking and having abilities like Shield Block, Shield Slam, Shield Wall, etc., we must shy away from that type of gear because it is not optimal. Cataclysm can’t come soon enough. I’m already envious of DK’s who only have to manage their Def, Stam, Dodge and Parry.
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Dread reply on March 17, 2010 9:41 am:
Heh, Druids have even less than DKs.
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March 16th, 2010 at 1:23 pm
Great post, Vene.
I just have one question. On what level would you put stamina? For example, when I gear for more armor my stamina is lowered which ultimately lowers my effective health. I’ve always had the understanding EH was the key stat overall.
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Veneretio reply on March 16, 2010 1:52 pm:
For most pieces, you should be able to pick up large amounts of Armor with little or no Stamina difference so I’m guessing you’re wondering about the Trinket slot. For trinkets, I’d use Glyph of Indomitability over everything except Juggernaut’s Vitality and up. So, eventually, you’ll see me using Juggernaut’s Vitality with Corroded Skeleton Key.
If there’s other pieces you’re wondering about, feel free to list the specific examples.
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Pinnick reply on March 16, 2010 1:58 pm:
Yeah thats true regarding the armor. Currently my main set has the Unidentifiable Organ and the Skeleton Key. Then for my health set (which has >armor) I use Skeleton Key and Juggers as well.
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Bodasafa reply on March 16, 2010 11:38 pm:
I have the same 3 trinkets.
Scarb/Juggers (non heroic)
Skeleton Key
Organ
Ive tried to implement the organ several times due to the huge gains in armor. Problem is the proc sucks something fierce and the stacks have a low average.
Kavtor reply on March 17, 2010 6:49 am:
What item has a better proc than Organ?
Really. It’s awesome. Would you rather have an 8% avoidance clicky? Or a 6400 absorb?
I think not. (altough there are times for burst absorbs and avoidance)
Organ gets a bad rap because the stacks fall off, but those stacks are a pretty awesome proc relative to other tank choices.
Just be aware of the limitations of the item (purely physical mitigation, stacks will fall off on transitions)
Furiat/Vege reply on March 17, 2010 7:25 am:
You could say the same thing about The Black Heart, that it’d be a “meh” trinket because of uncontrolable proc, even if that proc itself is an awesome one.
Whitewall reply on March 17, 2010 8:07 am:
Organ is more situational:
Tanking the adds on LK is one of those times you couldn’t possibly want another trinket: the 10 stacks are up permanently, resulting in a great amount of armor, and a crapload of stamina.
(glyph of shockwave does wonders for those berserks, too btw… Heavily underestimated; imho)
In general I also walk with a heroic juggernaut & skelly key, though.
/ww out
Kavtor reply on March 18, 2010 10:08 am:
LK phase one is great for Organ, but it isn’t helpful for the rest of the fight. Depending on what you’re doing. I’m safeguard botting, and soaking vile spirits. The armour isn’t significant, but stamina and active soak trinket CD’s are.
Organ is great as general damage reduction, (and some attackpower!) so I wear it on everything up to Sindragosa, where the stamina trinkets come out.
March 16th, 2010 at 2:12 pm
Nice to see this info, as I’ve been using your previous pick lists for some time (I’m a slow player) and I like seeing some (more) of the logic behind it. Useful for the few times I actually see dropped gear I might want.
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March 16th, 2010 at 3:18 pm
“Our last category consists of Block rating and Block value with the former slightly more desirable than the latter. Which is to say, the few fights where the Block mechanic is useful, you want to focus on Block rating and not worry about stacking Block value”.
I have completely avoided these stats but was wondering what fights in ICC specifically that a Block set would be optimal?
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Veneretio reply on March 16, 2010 4:23 pm:
The post wasn’t just about ICC. There isn’t anything in ICC where I’d consider Block optimal.
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Kavtor reply on March 17, 2010 6:50 am:
Block is only good for Anub 25 hard mode. One fight in the entire expansion.
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Drae reply on March 17, 2010 10:54 am:
and heroics. Block is OP for heroics, you take no damage.
and the niche stuff like soloing old instances.
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March 16th, 2010 at 4:09 pm
Gotta love being a prot warrior when it comes to the gem slots. I almost feels like I’m cheating putting 30 stam in every slot (save one for the meta of course). Plus it saves a lot of time not having to read those socket bonuses!
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Furiat/Vege reply on March 17, 2010 3:03 am:
Reading them isn’t bad. Actually some of them are worth the hassle.
You can see that some warriors care about them, but (imo) not always in a good way, taking every +12 stam bonus for example (like Vene does now afaik
). For me it looks like there this:
a) 1 socket: +9 stamina (or more ofc)on non-blue socket is ok bonus, as you only “loose” 6 stamina (15+9=24 stam instead of 30 from pure blue) but gain 10 defence/dodge rating. Helms with +12 stamina bonuses are even more awesome.
6 stam bonus isn’t worth it, as you loose 9 stam from single gem.
b) 2 sockets: +9 stamina is ok bonus again. But only if one of the sockets is blue one. This way you’re getting 30+15+9=54 stamina, instead of 60. And, again, gain another 10 dodge/defence rating. Without blue socket it’s rarely worth getting bonus.
c) 3 sockets: this is funny issue, as most tanks just go for +12 stamina bonus with 3 sockets. Which, almost always, isn’t different than going for +6stam bonus on item with 1 non-blue socket (which, strangely, those tanks shove off). With red/yellow/blue combo you’re getting 15+15+30+12=78 stamina, instead of 90. Each non-blue socket costs you 9 stamina again.
12 stamina with 3 sockets is good, but (imo) only when item has 2 blue sockets. That way you’re getting 30+30+15+12=87 stamina instead of 90 (and 10 defence + 10 dodge rating). That would be awesome, shame that this combination is a rare one.
(put parry instead of dodge if your DR on dodge is higher of course)
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Veneretio reply on March 19, 2010 2:22 am:
Indeed, I’m guilty of going that route. It’s something that I wanted to try out and see what the impact would be. The impact not just for myself or my raid team, but also from those around me. How accepted was this practice? I know it’s weird… it’s just in my nature to test.
I think you’ve got the right of it Furiat. It’s important not to ignore the set pieces altogether, but that also doesn’t mean you should never ignore them.
Well said.
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Whitewall reply on March 17, 2010 8:32 am:
At one point I was at 3% hit, and 14 Expertise (the drops just came bad, I guess) and it was unbearable to see people die because my initial taunt & shieldslam get miss & parried respectively.
I Know I’m just to tell the dead rogue to use tricks and all, but yeah…
Every single socketbonus on my gear is stamina. Soooo: socketing full stamina often nets me 9 stamina, instead of 10 expertise / 10 hit. (6 stamina for sticking to socketcolour)
This makes it feel like I’m missing out on a good opportunity to still make sure I have good snap aggro with a shieldslam and taunt on an add/spawn/aggroreset
Swapping those gems out till the point the minimum requirements for meta are still fulfilled, I’d trade about 6 connects out of 100 swings (1.83% hit, 2% dodge, 2% parry) for a little below 1k hp.
As much as I love hp…
Trading in 6% tps increase (spiked, so if initial misses happen, people tend to die) for a 2.1% hp increase doesn’t sound nor feel that great.
Perhaps it’ll change in heroic ICC25, but at this point I’m not screaming for that tad more hp.
/ww out
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Dread reply on March 18, 2010 10:43 am:
So how often do you get smashed with a 100hp overkill? With the way our talents work there’s no reason not to have a back up for your openers. Taunt, SS and HS queued on your charge or bloodrage for one, heroic throw also costs 0 rage and does good threat as well. I’d suggest just learning to adapt to common issues rather than risk tank death on a couple of HP difference. There’s never a need to gem hit or expertise over stamina in Icecrown.
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gravelayar reply on March 17, 2010 10:44 am:
Is 30 stam in every socket always best? I know I do not abide by that rule. Take the emblem chest. I’d rather have the bonus 12 stamina, which gets me a total of 72 + 10 dodge +10 defense vs. just 90 stamina.
Now is what I’m doing better? Depends I guess but we surely are not going to gem for encounters.
So is 18 stamina better than 10 dodge and 10 defense?
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Drae reply on March 17, 2010 11:00 am:
I would say yes.
Remember there’s diminishing returns on avoidance. That 10 dodge is probably a lot less dodge then you think.
I’ve talked a few tanks into regemming away from bonus’ and in many cases it’s resulted in 50 or more stamina gains, which is also affected by kings. Finally as armor goes up, each point of stam becomes more and more valuable EH wise.
While matching socket bonus’ was a great move in 3.1, it’s more beneficial to stack stamina these days imo.
WoW is a game of inches, a bit here, a bit there, before you know it your a foot ahead of the next guy who’s not taking every inch he can.
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thebitterfig reply on March 18, 2010 2:22 pm:
i might be wrong, but i’ll match some sockets and not others. single-sockets i don’t match. the bonus is 6 stamina, so a loss of 9. not worth it. something like the emblem chest, with its rainbow of sockets, i won’t match. the 12 stamina for the two offcolors is the same as matching single-socket items, and i just don’t think it’s worth it. i will always match a helm (which is 12 stamina for it’s non-meta socket, a loss of 3 off of a solid to match), and i’m currently matching my items with a blue and a non-blue socket. those give a stamina bonus of 9, so you trade 6 stamina for 10 defense or dodge. that’s a pretty big boost in itemisation points, and while it might not be a lot of avoidance, there is always a chance it prevents a killing blow. if it doesn’t have a stamina bonus, i won’t match.
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Eamonn reply on March 18, 2010 7:30 pm:
You are looking at 18 stamina vs 10 dodge + 10 defense and thinking the dodge + def wins out.
What I like to do with that situation is apply some ridiculous scaling and see how it feels. Suppose you could make this choice nine times on your gear. Now you are comparing 172 stamina with 90 dodge and 90 defense.
Basically if it was a worthwhile trade you would be using the Onyxia trinket instead of a stamina trinket on your tank gear. You are making pretty much the exact same tradeoff just on a smaller scale.
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Furiat/Vege reply on March 19, 2010 9:17 am:
Nope, Your math is a bit wrong.
Using thebitterfig’s (or mine) way of gemming non-blue sockets you would get 12 stamina vs 10 dodge +defence.
108 stamina versus 90 dodge and defence rating in second comparision. You are correct, with that number, most of us would take that stamina, even if it’s worth ~4,2% avoidance before DR (values from Vene’s formula calculators). It’d look more like comparing Gossamer to solid avoidance-like trinket, like a real Pocketwatch 2.0 (bar the awesome use).
In reality You won’t have more than 3-4 items with bonuses worth socketing. That’s 24 stamina at cost of 20 defence and 20 dodge (compare it to “tanking” and “pvp” shoulder enchants: 30 stamina gain at cost of 20 dodge rating and 15 defence rating, looks a lot better, even if avoidance stats are not the most wanted).
In my current gear there are just two good (in my opinion) items for socketing: helm and belt (a lot of tanking belts and helms is worth socketing for bonuses it seems), so it’s a loss of 12 stamina and gain of 20 dodge (or 10 def / 10 dodge if I’m wearing Triumph helm). Fair trade if you ask me.
gravelayar reply on March 19, 2010 10:26 am:
“You are looking at 18 stamina vs 10 dodge + 10 defense and thinking the dodge + def wins out.”
I was really looking for some type of mathatical comparison from someone smarter than myself.
Might be time trade in some of those triumph emblems for Majestic Zircon
Eamonn reply on March 22, 2010 12:02 pm:
30 + 30 + 30 = 90
30 + 15 + 15 + 12 = 72
90 - 72 = 18
You gain 10 def + 10 dodge.
You lose 18 stamina.
My maths was correct. Yours is not.
Furiat/Vege reply on March 23, 2010 12:35 am:
If you look at thebitterfig’s and my math, we’re not socketing for bonus items with 3 sockets red&yellow&blue with 12 sockets. Read carefully which bonuses are worth socketing (”imo).
Thus I stand correct.
March 16th, 2010 at 4:22 pm
Thank you for this post, Vene. I will probably be pointing a few people I know towards it.
I suspect that your ranking system was made with the expectation that ilevel across gear pieces was constant. When the ilevel is different, however, making decisions about gear can be a little trickier. How many ilevels is the difference between ‘premium’ and ’strong’ (or any of the other tiers) worth? I would imagine that a well-itemized 239 is better than a bad 245, but what about a 251 or a 264?
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Veneretio reply on March 16, 2010 4:53 pm:
Generally speaking, there can be about a tier of difference between each category. So, I’ll use a 251 Premium over a 264 Strong. It’s pretty tough to go beyond a couple tiers though.
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March 16th, 2010 at 4:23 pm
I had read somewhere that even though Glyph of Devastate applies two stacks of sunder armor, it only does threat for one. Just wondering if you were meaning good for burst threat, or if there is some mechanic I am missing.
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Veneretio reply on March 16, 2010 4:30 pm:
Glyph of Devastate always does the Threat of both Sunders even at 5 stacks.
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Arold reply on March 17, 2010 10:39 am:
I was totally unaware of this. I looked into it just now, and it appears that this was either added after 3.0 or just not discovered at the time (which means it came up during my long break from wow…). I’ve been using the glyph this whole time just to get sunders up faster, so it looks like I lucked out.
Just from google, I found a post 3.2 research thread on tankspot, this was the conclusion: “Devastate Threat has been determined to be Damage + 315 + 5% AP for unglyphed and Damage + 630 + 10% AP when using Glyph of Devastate.”
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Arold reply on March 17, 2010 10:43 am:
Vene, maybe you should consider writing an article about this, if it’s not common knowledge a lot of people could be missing out!
GronkerLonker reply on March 17, 2010 12:59 am:
That may be a mix up with the Glyph of Sunder Armor.
Having both, the Devastate and Sunder Armor Glyph, will not put the additional Sunder from Devastate to the second target affected by the Glyph of Sunder Armor.
Maybe the text you read mixed this up with the effect the Devastate Glyph has on the targeted mob.
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Belthamel reply on March 17, 2010 11:08 am:
Now that you mention that, I’m almost certain that’s where I got mixed up. I had just remembered reading it didn’t do twice the threat, but forgot what context in was used in.
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March 17th, 2010 at 1:02 am
yep stamina and armor is the way to go in icc. But if u manage reach Sindragosa get your expertise back!
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Kavtor reply on March 17, 2010 6:51 am:
What do you need expertise for on Sindragosa?
I miss my threat stats quite a bit, but there’s really no need for them.
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Cratermaker reply on March 17, 2010 8:06 am:
Redbear might be referring to Sindragosa being one of the few bosses with parry haste enabled in ICC. (I think LDW is the other that I know of.) As a resul, expertise is a mitigation stat of sorts for that fight in addition to being a threat stat. Hard to give up stam/armor even then though.
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Dread reply on March 18, 2010 4:45 am:
Still doesn’t seem to make it worthwhile to sacrifice stam or armor.
Kavtor reply on March 18, 2010 10:11 am:
Yeah. Sindragosa hits like a girl. Parry haste is a completely trivial concern. You’re wearing frost resist gear, then stacking stam and staying def capped. Armour and avoidance are nice after that.
mister six reply on March 18, 2010 8:27 pm:
I wonder how common people using frost resist gear is actually.
Dread reply on March 18, 2010 8:34 pm:
Not at all, because it’s a bad idea.
Veneretio reply on March 19, 2010 2:28 am:
I think you’re being a bit quick to dismiss this gearing technique.
The absolute most dangerous aspect of the Sindragosa fight as a tank is phase 3. (and to a lesser degree her AOE followed immediately by a Frost breath in phase 1) What makes phase 3 dangerous is the ridiculously high amounts of magic damage you can take since you get a stacking debuff. Saying Frost resist is bad for the fight is like saying Armor is bad for Festergut.
If you haven’t tested Frost Resist gear on Sindragosa, do so and see what you think.
Kavtor reply on March 19, 2010 6:47 am:
There’s really no reason not to wear frost resist gear. Her melee just isn’t dangerous. You can eat extra breaths in phase 3, to the point where you can solo tank her on ten for well past what should be reasonable. You can hunker down on 25 for a long time as well if the other tank gets stuck on something.
Drae reply on March 19, 2010 6:58 am:
I use 2 pieces of frost resist gear, it changes the damage out-put from 65% frost damage / 35% physical to more like 55% physical 45% frost. Since I can avoid physical and not magic, I feel this is an excellent trade off. Overall the burst damage drops significantly, and I take ~5% more physical damage.
Take it with a grain of salt tho, I only paid attention to the numbers over 4 attempts.
Dread reply on March 19, 2010 3:11 pm:
Vene- wouldn’t work for me. I’m sitting on 544 defense at the moment, so switching 2 pieces would get me killed. If a druid were to do it however, they’d be fine.
Veneretio reply on March 19, 2010 7:51 pm:
You’re also running the crafted boots though which are an easy straight across trade for the Frost resist boots since neither have defense on them.
You could also easily drop a trinket and put on the Onyxia trinket so that you could swap your belt for another piece of Frost resist.
So, you could easily make it work for you with very little effort.
Dread reply on March 21, 2010 8:18 am:
Heh, what Ony trinket, hmmm? Lol.
Kavtor reply on March 21, 2010 9:39 pm:
You don’t really want to be wearing an ony trinket. You want stamina trinkets with good /uses.
You just need to be careful with Pillars of Might and T10 chest. Just toss on a 258 piece in one of those slots instead, and you should be fine on defence. (or the 264 offset legs / 264 badge chest)
If you’re enchanting stamina to shield / chest, gladiator shoulder enchant you could be in a bit of a spot as well, but it shouldn’t be too hard to arrange 3pc frost resist, defence cap, and a ton of stamina.
March 17th, 2010 at 1:04 am
Great post!
I’m still leveling and far away from the items found in the picklists.
I think I know at a bit about my classes mechanics, but I always felt insecure when it came down to gear choices.
I use TankPoints, but that can of course only be an orientation.
Having the gearing idea put so clearly in a few paragraphs helps a lot, thanks.
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March 17th, 2010 at 5:18 am
Where the Tier Set Bonus enter on the list status?
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Bodasafa reply on March 17, 2010 11:33 am:
Low IMO.
The 251 Tier is a down grade (even with a 4 pc bonus) compared to the 264 badge items and the crafted pants. There is just too much good bonus armor on those items to pass up.
Once you have x4 Tokens to upgrade to the 264 Tier the 4pc bonus starts to become more attractive. But more of a side grade to the 264 badge items.
I’m starting to come to the conclusion that the Tier will not become “superior” to the 264 Badge items until you are able to obtain x4 Heroic Tokens to upgrade to the 277 Tier.
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Bodasafa reply on March 17, 2010 11:35 am:
Also, I have been passing all my tokens to the other DPS/Healing classes that share my token due to their set bonuses being far superior to mine. Plus with all this bonus armor, me surviving in ICC 25 so far has not been an issue and we only have Sindragosa (to 30%!!) and LK to go.
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March 17th, 2010 at 5:32 am
It’s worth pointing out (as a couple of people have said it) that this post is entitled “The General Philosophy to Approaching Items”.
Key word:
GENERAL.
In the vast majority of cases, and in a balanced tanking set, you’ll find that the list above will ring true because it’s prioritizing what a tank is actually there to do; establish, maintain and survive threat.
It’s always worthwhile, though, to consider what content you’re actually doing and gear accordingly (the Golden Rule). That means that things like hit or block rating will have a place in certain encounters, depending on the mechanics of said encounter.
For example, I always used my threat (hit, expertise and block value) pieces when we fought Hodir or Malygos, because the DPS were being heavily buffed beyond my average threat output.
On the other hand, your block set is awesome for rampaging through heroics (a necessary evil) and for Anub’arak during Trial of the Grand Crusader.
Vene has, of course, alluded to this subtlety in his post but a couple of people seem to have missed it; additionally, it’s part of the reason why certain stats are considered “premium”.
Look at it like this:
Armour, stamina and avoidance are ALWAYS good, no matter what you’re doing.
Hit, expertise and block (both) are SOMETIMES good, utterly depending on what you’re doing.
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Dread reply on March 17, 2010 7:29 am:
/clap great response Zell.
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Pinnick reply on March 17, 2010 12:18 pm:
Yeah, well summarized. All great points for sure.
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Veneretio reply on March 17, 2010 1:08 pm:
Well said.
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March 17th, 2010 at 6:38 am
In addition to gearing for the encounter, I would say it is also important to gear for your raid team, and specifically, your healers. Having an open dialog with them can let you push what you are doing as a tank. The thing about defensive stats in general is that you really only need enough to CONSISTENTLY survive every encounter. Damage, on the other hand, never goes to waste.
Let’s take Putricide Phase 3 as an example. Basically 2 things can happen to cause failure here. A tank can die, healing him and making it impossible to complete before the enrage/soft enrage, or DPS can be too low, all 3 tanks get to 4 stacks, and the raid dies off as the 5 stacks start going up. Obviously, your #1 job as a tank is to ensure that you live until either you win or everyone else is dead, however, if you and your healing team pass that threshold (again, CONSISTENTLY) then going way beyond where you need to be on the survivability scale, when extra dps is so critically important, to my way of thinking, is a mistake.
What I am saying here is not to gear for damage first. What I am saying is that if you are completely confident in your ability to stay alive on any given fight, then just adding more defensive stats isn’t doing anything for you. Instead, start slowly bringing more DPS stats, and make sure to let your healers know what you are doing, and ask them to tell you the second they feel like you are getting hard to heal.
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March 17th, 2010 at 8:02 am
Vene, this is a great post and I’m glad it’s up. This has been my philosophy since starting Icecrown. As of last night I picked up the 251 T10 helm to upgrade, replacing the 245 Triumph offset helm. Now I have only the Cataclysmic Chestguard for an expertise piece, and as such am down to 16 skill including Vitality, and about 171 hit rating. My threat has not suffered at all. I still do carry enough offset gear to make a fully capped hit/exp set, but I have not used it, ever. May just dump those pieces in the bank and save bag space to be honest. I currently use the Boots of Kingly Upheaval and Pillars of Might, and will replace the boots with the ones off Dreamwalker/25m when they drop. My 2pc is 251 shoulders and helm, until they are upgraded to the 264 version via tokens. I have a set of 251 gloves from VOA that will be used once they are upgraded as well. I will buy the T10 chest and use it when it’s token’d to gain the 4set. The bonus armor is the only reason I will use the last two, because they are overall better than the offset.
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March 17th, 2010 at 1:32 pm
So, the golden rule of 26 expertise is off the table?
*$
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Dread reply on March 17, 2010 2:38 pm:
Yes. Get a MD and a TotT on the pull, and just work your rotation tight. Should be no problem.
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Seph reply on March 18, 2010 10:11 am:
Sadly you dont even have to work a tight rotation any longer. You can literally spam devastate and still maintain an easy threat lead.
I am not saying not to make your rotation tight, I am just saying.. well I guess I just miss the old days
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Dread reply on March 18, 2010 10:45 am:
I was taking that as a given, but even then I factor my shield slams in anyway because 10-12k dps can get a bit hairy on some fights. It’s helpful to be putting out 14-16k tps if you can muster it. Sometimes I feel like icing my wrists.
Brugg reply on March 18, 2010 11:37 am:
I am currently running at 20 expertise and about to drop my last 2 of the 10 exp/15 stam gems and go straight stam. At 20 expertise i am seeing parries happen regularly but no one gets close in threat
Macro
/cast Shield Block
/cast Heroic Throw
/cast Charge
Boss is stuck like glue even if the first SS doesn’t land. A few devastates seal the deal and the normal rotation does the rest.
Sadly i miss Parry haste, knowing what it was and being expertise capped to avoid it was one sign of a tank that at least did his/her homework.
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mister six reply on March 18, 2010 3:18 pm:
The thing is there’s enough expertise on some pieces that fall into the strong (e.g. Cataclysmic Chestguard) and solid categories (e.g. Grinning Skull Greatboots, The Facelifter) in Vene’s model that have expertise on them that it’s not that hard to come close or hit the 26 exp. softcap WITHOUT trying to hit it and WITHOUT sacrificing survivability.
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Dread reply on March 19, 2010 10:12 am:
The only piece I have left after replacing my helm and shoulders with T10 is the Cataclysmic Chestguard. That + Vitality = 16 expertise skill. Still holding threat perfectly fine.
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March 17th, 2010 at 6:38 pm
Important to iterate Vene’s point about:
“On progression, you’re always better off avoiding more damage than doing more.”
The on progression caveat being the critical point. In other cases the emphasis can shift.
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March 18th, 2010 at 6:00 pm
This makes me think that maybe I should get rid of the few Sovereign Dreadstone (+10 str / +15 stam) gems I have in use for red slots when the socket bonus is good (say +9 or +12 stam). Should I switch out to a Regal Dreadstone (+10 dodge / +15 stam) instead? I know paladins seem to prefer Shifting Dreadstones (+10 agil / +15 stam) more lately. How do they compare for warriors in a red socket?
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Dread reply on March 19, 2010 10:13 am:
You get slightly less dodge and crit than a paladin with Shifting. The difference is small. Use that or Regal, your choice. I don’t think gemming strength is ever the best idea for a tank unless it was to fill in block value for an anub set. Even so, only one purple gem to meet your meta requirements, in the slot with the biggest stamina bonus you can get.
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mister six reply on March 19, 2010 10:27 am:
Paladins get more benefit out of agi than warriors do. Weird logic there, blizz.
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Dread reply on March 19, 2010 3:12 pm:
For one reason or another rets were found to use less leather than fury. So making it bad for warriors was the best decision in their heads.
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March 23rd, 2010 at 2:41 am
lol you guys are talking about crumbs or stats. like its gonna throw you off by not having +9 stamina or something….. i could stack spell power and be better then 75% of the tanks out there. spending all your time worrying about any of this is a joke do to the fact there is a straight line of gear for warrior tanks. what is there something like a 1 or 2 piece different in gear….not much to fret about. I am sure these “tips” are useful to the baddies out there but to someone with common sense, you kinda look at this as corny knowledge that should be known. i have let a 9 year old kid tank on my toon for 10 man ICC….game is a joke and has been dumbed down to the point that people are just waiting for star wars.
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Furiat/Vege reply on March 23, 2010 4:25 am:
Is it? Tanking, just like every other role in WoW, requires some min-maxing while squeezing all the possible juice from your toon. Be it 9 stamina here and there, so, when the worst possible scenario actually occures, you’ll still survive it.
Looking at your Armory and some of your applications to 25man raiding guilds you sill have to experience what we’re talking about I suppose.
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Kavtor reply on March 23, 2010 6:49 am:
Oh. So you’ve killed LK heroic then? You’re must be awesome.
Oh. So LK heroic uses entirely different gearing choices? Meaning there are a lot more than 1 or 2 different choices for gear? Well then. Thanks for sharing. Even 4pc T10 or not is an interesting conversation.
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Dread reply on March 23, 2010 8:01 am:
No one’s forcing you to read this.
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April 12th, 2010 at 5:13 pm
Thanks for your post, Vene.
I wanted your opinion, is the Legionnaire’s Gorget from 25-man Valkyr Twins the best in-slot until the Bile-Encrusted Medallion from 25-man Rotface?
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