Loading ...The Dungeon Tool is ruining your chances of Raid Tanking
I’ve covered the topic of making the leap from 5 mans to raid tanking more than a few times, but with such a vast topic, there’s always another trick out there… you just have to find it. Today, we’re going to look at Fans and Favourites and why both of them are so effective at getting you into raids.
What? You don’t know who your Fans and Favourites are? Okay, I’ll break it down for you.
Fans: DPSers that think you’re an awesome tank.
Favourites: Healers you trust that would run with you again.
What does this have to do with the Dungeon Tool?
If you’re using the Dungeon Tool then you can’t acquire Fans or Favourites. Fans and Favourites are people on your friends list. They are people that will vouch for you in a raid and more importantly, seek you out when they’re looking for a tank for a raid. The more Fans and Favourites you have, the less likely you’ll have to start your own raid in order to do content at your appropriate gear level.
How do I know when I’ve got a Fan?
As defined above, Fans are DPSers that just think you rock. These are the people that let you know at the end of the run that you gave them a great experience. They’ll often try to entice you into doing multiple runs in a row and if you’ve got the time, you definitely should. Once you’re done running instances with this person, it is vital that you add them to your friends list.
It’s even more important though that you tell them that you are adding them to your friends list. If you truly did “rock” as a tank then they’ll do the same.
How do I know when I’ve got a Favourite?
Favourites are the healers you run across that are really good. They are the types of people that you’d want healing your runs every single time because you know that if they’re doing it that there’s nothing to worry about. (even if you pull multiple groups at once)
Don’t mistake Fans for Favourites though. Just because a healer thinks you’re an amazing tank doesn’t mean that you should immediately be adding them to your friends list. You need to trust their abilities. It’s going to do you no good having a healer on your friends list that you’re not prepared to let heal you. Be picky. Occasionally, you will get lucky though and you’ll cross paths with a healer that you really trust and that really trusts you back.
In the case of acquiring Favourites, you’ve got to play the role of Fan yourself at times. If they were good, let them know. If you’ve got time for more runs, try to get them to do more. When you’re done running with them, add them to your friends list.
And just like your Fans, tell them you are adding them to your friends list. If you rocked, they’ll do the same.
So, your Master Plan is to make Friends?
Yup. Good ones.
And by “Good ones” I’m not talking about people that you like more than the average person, I’m talking about making friends with above average players. The whole point is to be creating a friends list of people you want to raid with.
So, I’m creating a guild?
No, definitely not.
You’re just creating a lot of close connections. You’ll use these connections to get into pug raids. Once you’ve proven yourself in enough pug raids, eventually one of your Fans or Favourites will ask you if you want to tank some of their guild raids. Which is exactly what you’re looking for.
Not using the Dungeon Tool sounds like a Waste of Time
If your objective was to get the best 5 man gear possible then you’re right, it would be a waste of time. It’s not though. You are trying to get into a guild that raids. Your odds of getting into one are far greater if you already know someone in the guild. Knowing someone in the guild is always more valuable than good gear. A guild can gear you up quickly and easily. It can’t do anything with you if you don’t fit in.
To facilitate the process of “fitting in” be sure to use Ventrilo whenever possible on 5 mans and pug raids with your Fans and Favourites. Speaking with them will give you valuable information about them, but it turn will also reveal valuable information about you to them.
It’s all about building trust.
It seems like a Slow Process
It definitely isn’t a short process, but I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised with how quickly your friends list grows. (and how much fun growing it is) Tanks willing to start up random 5 man groups are scarce and those wanting to chain run heroics with random pugs are even more so.
The bottom line is, the more you take the initiative to start 5 mans outside of the Dungeon Tool, the less likely you’ll have to start and lead your own raids.
Finally, don’t park yourself in a “placeholder” guild. A lot of people are uncomfortable poaching players from another guild. Being unguilded is a good thing. It makes it completely obvious to your Fans and Favourites that you are available to join and raid with their guild.
April 2nd, 2010 at 9:54 am
Great post, Vene. On my server, there are so many pugs going on, it’s pretty easy to get into one and start building recognition from there. I will often offer my services as prot warrior or resto/ele shaman (most pugs need tanks and heals). If you also advertise your alternate spec, it gives the raid leaders a good idea of how then can shift roles if someone leaves.
Slightly related:
Does anyone know of an addon that lets you manage your friends list across toons? One that lets your sort friends into groups?
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Kerplah reply on April 3, 2010 10:59 am:
There is a mod called friendshare reserection (spacing or spelling may be off). It will sync your friends lists (and ignore) across all toons. It will also prevent bliz from auto deleting a friend who hasn’t logged in for a while.
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April 2nd, 2010 at 10:20 am
Indeed,great post
LFG tool is a double-edged sword for sure.I havent added anyone to my friends list since it came on-line. Sad
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April 2nd, 2010 at 10:41 am
I would agree in the fact you need to be making friends to start working on PuG raids. That’s where the real learning happens. Even if the PuG raid totally sucks you can constantly be looking within and see what you personally can do to better your play.
In today’s heroics you don’t learn a darn thing.
Which is why I found it strange that the fast track to gearing up for the current raid content is skipping all previous raid content aside from ToC 10/25. I think that was a huge mistake. Further promoting the “lol, roll face” style of heroics only makes players weaker.
However you can always learn something about yourself on how to improve, even in a bad PuG raid.
Great post Vene, you brought up some excellent points. I know any applicants to our guild that do not have previous raid experience get an instant deny. I would imagine most other serious guilds are the same.
It is worth your time to PuG raids below ICC.
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thebitterfig reply on April 2, 2010 3:22 pm:
i dunno that i’d say there is nothing to learn in today’s heroics. i’ve been in a few ICCs where the add pickup on Lady Deathwhisper and even gunship was pretty slow. i’ll agree that the skill won’t develop on its own these days due to the ease of them.
however, if you go into heroics with the goal of developing speed and awareness, you can learn a lot. it’s the mindset more than the content which will help someone improve their skills.
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Machus reply on April 5, 2010 3:58 pm:
Good tank in classic: Never seen outside of guild runs. Occasionally seen in ZG trying to get an enchant.
Good tank in BC: Knows how to hold multiple mobs, has good pace, knows how to recover from adds, is able to run gauntlets.
Good tank in Wrath: Doesn’t jump too much. Stays still and in LoS long enough for casters to DPS. Runs the whole instance.
I agree there are rather low expectations in Wrath heroics. Onyxia, TotC, or ICC might tell you something about a tank’s performance.
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April 2nd, 2010 at 10:52 am
I was just commenting in Vent the other day about the lack of friends and aqaintances I have since the LFG tool. I never seem to run with anyone on my server anymore. I am in a 10 man raiding guild and it can hurt not knowing people for when we need a pug.
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April 2nd, 2010 at 1:54 pm
You are missing one point about the LFG - making a server-side group with 1 or more DPS and then joining gives you the best of both worlds.
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Veneretio reply on April 2, 2010 2:21 pm:
See, but then you’re still sticking with the same group of people. The point is to expand your friends list not just settle for the 1 or 2 people online. Every run is an opportunity to meet more people so if your goal is raiding, don’t use it at all.
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Castello reply on April 2, 2010 2:38 pm:
I do often see DPS spamming in trade for tanks and healers for multiple randoms. If I wasn’t burnt out on heroics that would be a good way to network.
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Danyarik reply on April 2, 2010 3:02 pm:
No, I mean asking or answering in Trade. Of my minimal raid tanking experience, all but 1 non-VoA has come from people who were in groups to do the Weekly and had me on their Friends list from a heroic daily.
I got irritated with the minority of players who take advantage of the cross-realm anonymity and just decided to insulate myself a little by offering my ‘tank queue’ to people on-realm. I do not normally add those people to my Friends list, but evidently they do.
Rather than filling out a full group of 5 - which takes time - I can pick up 1-3 people in 30 seconds or so, and add maybe 1 minute to an instant queue. Very small investment in building an on-server network that has proven more effective than trying to crack the tiny raid guild scene on my server - which is T10 or gtfo for tanks.
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Veneretio reply on April 2, 2010 10:30 pm:
- Grab 2 people: 5 minutes
- Instant queue
- 15-30 minute heroic
or
- Grab 5 people: 15-20 minutes
- Instant queue
- 15-30 minute heroic
Yes, in the 2nd case, you’ll end up doing less heroics, but you’ll still end up meeting more people. Your decision while better than using just the LFG tool is still inferior to completely avoiding it when your goal is to meet people.
I mean sure it can sometimes take time to fill a group, but there’s a benefit to the process. It gets people talking. You can get people on the run to pull in folks from their guilds. It gives you time to encourage people to jump on vent. It’s not wasted time.
The interaction with people is the vital part, not the 15 minutes you chain pull and no one says anything. (which is why being able to eventually get people on vent is so crucial since then you can both chain pull and talk to people at the same time)
Danyarik reply on April 3, 2010 10:48 am:
Hmm…can’t reply to yours Veneretio.
math sort of works differently in my experience…
- Grab 1-3 DPS: 2 minutes
- Instant queue
- 20 minute heroic
or
- Grab a healer and 1-3 DPS: 10-15 minutes
- 1-2 min queue
- 20 minute heroic
So I can almost get a 2nd one done with ‘overflow’ DPS in the time it takes to find a healer, with 3 more DPS added to the contact list.
That said, I think healers are generally more influential in getting a raid spot invite. A healer who suggests a tank is already giving the RL an important vote of confidence. So taking the fast route is leaving this on the table.
April 3rd, 2010 at 12:32 am
All good points, but I’m not completely sold on the being un-guilded part.
Yes, it makes sense for the “poaching” part, but I’m in a moderate sized guild that always has enough people online to get a 10 man going at the drop of a hat, and a 25 can be done by having it scheduled in the calender. Granted, the 25 mans are not going to cut it in ICC, but we are gearing those that need it.
I’d rather stick with the guild, I’m one of the few high end tanks in it so I never worry about not having a spot in any of the raids I want in on and I can still work on the friends and fans to get myself into some higher end 25 mans.
Plus I’ve got a guild full of friends and fans that always look out for me when they get in a pug, and I do the same for them.
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Dranchor reply on April 3, 2010 5:35 am:
This is exactly why being guildless is so advantageous. If an officer in one of those high-end raiding guilds notices you, and thinks you’d be a great addition to his raiding team, he will be scared because of your guild tag.
People that are not in a guild are a lot easier to recruit for a number of reasons.
- All the raiding they do is with pugs, which are nearly always worse than guild runs.
- They have nothing to leave behind and say goodbye to. Look at your situation, you’re in a guild now and you think it is cool to have your own safe tanking spot. You probably also know and like some other members. Guildless people don’t have all that.
- There is no chance that you’ll get yourself in a conflict with another raiding guild. Really, even though the other guilds are competition, you want to remain on speaking terms with them. What the tank possibly sees as a promotion, the guild will see as stealing their best tank.
These are the reasons why raiding guilds will much easier approach a guildless player.
Which is exactly why you want to remain guildless if you want to get into a good raiding guild.
(That, and the fact that you’re screwing your current guild if you plan on just leaving them in the cold once you get into a better guild)
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Verata reply on April 5, 2010 2:24 pm:
I agree with the guild part of that. I would prefer to be guilded because you have the added advantage of “knowing” what your teammates are “likly” to do. just a 2 cents thingy
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Verata reply on April 5, 2010 2:26 pm:
that may not have been put in the right spot but I think the inferrence is there..
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Scrawny reply on April 6, 2010 10:11 am:
“”"”I would prefer to be guilded because you have the added advantage of “knowing” what your teammates are “likly” to do. just a 2 cents thingy “”"”
obviously, but thats not the point. the point is, youll work towards getting into that 25man guild and building that same thing with them.
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April 3rd, 2010 at 5:19 pm
Very good article. Brought back a lot of memories which I haven’t had the pleasure of recalling for a while now. I love tanking, and ranking for friends (and potential friends), is what it’s all about. Thanks for another great article.
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April 3rd, 2010 at 9:55 pm
Great article. I think I’ll take your advice and try to grab as many server side dps/heals for my daily random. Can’t hurt to make friends and contacts for when I feel the 25 man itch and I need to scratch it.
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April 5th, 2010 at 2:15 pm
Our Guild is looking to switch servers because of the LACK of guildies for the inevitable followup (Sat from Fri and Sun from Sat), and from what I’ve been reading, pug peeps, good ones (and by good I mean you can count on them to pot/flask/elixir buff and food buff. it is SO frustrating to see that there are peeps not getting those few extras when they can.. but I digress). The DF is a crap shoot at best. BUT alot of the peeps on my “friends” list have come from PuG’s and the DF
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April 5th, 2010 at 5:44 pm
I don’t know what i should make of this post.
Maybe it’s that i’m in my guild for more than 4 years now. Although I haven’t MTd for quite some time… (switched to shadow magic, but still value your blog)
I have a base of favs, whom i trust, but the fans are harder to maintain
I’ve aquired decent gear, so ppl would consider me for pug “calender inv” raids, but they still know “someone better suited”…
So I think the Key is joining pug Raids /w ppl you want to impress, even if you outgear the Instance and you don’t need the drops. Let them know you’re fine with that, and you’ll be trusted as tank/dps/heal realmwide.
(at least i tried to get into icc25 pug, and i think coming first at dps in totgc10 /w that particular RL was very helpful)
As always, your posts hold true for everyone, not only tanks.
Consider this:
There will always be someone better than you.
You dont’ impress people by being awesome, but by being reliable.
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Veneretio reply on April 5, 2010 5:53 pm:
Absolutely love that last line. You’re so right.
As to the post, it’s not really geared towards someone in an established guild and that’s something I should have been more clear about. This really is for someone trying to break into the scene. When I say “placeholder” guild, I mean people that make one with their 5 alts just for the extra bank space or those that stay in a guild that has 4 level 80s in it.
Basically, if you’re planning on raiding on a toon, then don’t be sitting in a guild that you’ll never raid with.
Now the dynamics of becoming a tank within your existing guild… that’s a whole other post and one I probably should get started on…
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Tinaria reply on April 5, 2010 5:55 pm:
thus said, i#ve encounteres the top dpser in the raid who quit after the first wipe bc “only noobs would wipe here”
maybe thats an attitude required to join top guilds, but it isn’t mine, and it’s not very helpful to behave like this.
Or do you suggest to be a jerk to get somewhere?
I hope not!
(i expect a post on how much of a jerk you have to be, and how much you can get away with
)
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Veneretio reply on April 5, 2010 6:02 pm:
The jerk approach is kinda covered here already:
http://www.tankingtips.com/2009/10/13/the-road-to-content-reputation-vs-gear-vs-experience/
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April 6th, 2010 at 4:15 am
As of late I have become a bit angry with the LFD-tool..
Not only does it bring out the ass in a lot of people (Needing Frozen Orbs Pre-3.3.3.3.3.3.3.3.3, Yelling and bitching against new/average tanks/healers etc.) but it also takes most of the social aspect out of the game. I hardly ever hear people say more then “hi” and “ty, bye” anymore.. and many even fail to do that!
Not all is to blame to LFD, the fact we are all overgeared now also adds.. There is no NEED to say anything while doing an instance…
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April 6th, 2010 at 6:13 am
The only problem I see with this (and I didn’t have the time to browse and read all answers so maybe someone already pointed it out) it’s the fact that most of the time the LFG tool will team you with people from other realms. So it’s pretty obvious you can’t add them to your friends list.
On the other hand I find the idea great : as a tank go to Trade and build a group of your own realm and help them get some runs. They will prolly appreciate it.
Overall great post thnkz for sharing the info.
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Chro reply on April 6, 2010 7:18 am:
The entire point of the post is not to use the LFG tool, but rather to use trade chat or w/e on your own server to find four others.
I also want to chime in with a comment about wearing a guild tag. When I am considering extending an invitation to someone I see potential in to my guild, if they are in a guild that I recognize, I generally don’t talk to them about it. If I don’t recognize the guild name, I generally put out the feelers to see if they would be interested. 9/10 times you find that it’s a guild of friends/alts/bankers, and they would love a shot at a good raiding guild.
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April 6th, 2010 at 9:01 am
This is really something I haven’t thought of, good thing I have this blog to read to make up for my slow brain
With the new pug-raid friendly environment that WotLK is, finding friends is really important. And adding to the list of “Fans” and “Favourites” I would recommend “Buddies” – which would be fellow tanks that you like to work next to.
A lot of encounters is very dependant on a good teamwork between tanks, I’d say more then with healers or dps.
Find them in VoA and weekly raid, then bring them to your next pug TotC or ICC (unless you’re in a guild ofc).
*$
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April 6th, 2010 at 8:30 pm
1 heroic per day with the lfg tool is quiet much mandatory for all chars i raid with, since sources for frosties are limited. as a tank, i instafind groups and I always take a firend or guildie with me when i can, simply cuz its fun.
When we recruit new ppl into our guild, a trial run tells you much about a player, not only about skill but also about behaviour, attitude and i highly appreciate the possebilety to go into all heroics instantly.
the wrath hc’s basically shaped an attitude that makes nonraiding dps to brainless tank-n-spank tools so busy with starring recount they miss the whole surrounding. what cc mean, me smash…
very little to noone even remembers what a cornerpull means, i seen at least 1 dps each day run straight into a pack of mobs, but i also met exceptions, when leveling, when not overgeared, with exactly the same tool. yes, hc spamming is endgame gearuprace, and you rarely will make friends for life there.
Be honest, did you make more really valuable friends just in heroics in all that time you pugged before? I have good friends i play with since years, and when i heal i am happy to have a solid tank taging along with me, same for when i should have time to, dps a bit. You can meet nice ppl everywhere in the game, and i dont think the dungeonfinder first priority should be seen as a socializing tool.
As for the dungeon tool, its fun so its doing what its supposed to do.
cheers
Laskia
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April 7th, 2010 at 5:57 am
Definitely food for thought here. I got my 25 man big break tanking heroics in TBC, that’s not something I could see a new Emblem-geared tank accomplishing these days. All dressed up and nowhere to go, indeed.
Since the gleam has worn off the LFD tool, the rapid fire anonymity of tanking the daily random has made the game feel far less social for me; in fact the anonymity seems to encourage people to be anti-social, at best.
I don’t need to go looking for a raidspot, but this definitely made me think how much LFD has changed the game, and not for the better. The sense of community, and accountability, from a same-server group is absent.
So after reading this post I’m going to be offering my insta-queue services in Trade from now on. Emblem gear will be replaced; the potential connections you can make with skilled people from the same server will be far more rewarding in the long run.
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April 8th, 2010 at 10:26 am
I LOVE the dungeon tool. At any time I can run my daily instantly. No need for fans or favourites.
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April 26th, 2010 at 3:20 pm
WoW! i couldnt have said it better myself. As a healer I have always made friends by running 5mans. Its been the number one way I have made friends and found new tank (favorites) in this game. With the new Dungeon Finder Tool I have made so few friends its discouraging. And none of them are suitable raid buddies. I wish there was some way to specify you want a group only from your own server. I miss making new friends.
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May 10th, 2010 at 3:43 pm
Who remembers 40 man content?
Back then, pretty much if you werent in a guild running MC and BWL, you werent going unless you knew someone.
IMO Opinion Vene, you should have called this getting back to the basics.
Great Points all around, i remember in MC, we werent taking any one not wearing our tag unless they were a prospect for recruitment, but then again, you had the whole DKP thing in place.
I would be willing to bet in the near future, Blizz will put a raid option in the LFG tool.
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May 17th, 2010 at 11:26 am
First, I have to say that I love your posts Vene, even though I’m a prot Pally - tanking principles are universal.
Second, as a GM, I really like the idea of using heroics and raids as potential guild recruitment tools. A while back one of our healers pointed out that spamming trade with recruitment hooks will bring you quality people occasionally, but you’re more likely to get the people who are drifters, or are guild-less for a reason. Since then, we’ve stopped advertising in trade, and use our “fun” Naxx, OS, and Ony runs as recruitment tools - we’ll generally pick up a couple players and at the end of the run, if they’ve behaved, tell them we’d love to have them as a guild member.
Lastly, I totally agree that establishing a relationship with other solid players is KEY to getting invites to raids. I’ve become an almost-regular tank for the ICC 10/25 runs of my wifes guild, even though they have more than enough guildies who could tank it.
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