Or… Would you rather Rend?
In my last post, I looked at the possibility of utilizing Heroic Throw to keep Sunder Armor maintained on a 2nd mob that was up to 30 yards away from you. This idea banks on Blizzard increasing the duration of Sunder Armor by at least 5 seconds.
But, what if: Glyph of Heroic Throw could apply Rend.
This solves the problem of chucking an axe at a target and it being accidentally re-shackled. And more to the point, it makes Blood and Thunder a whole lot more effective.
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September 2nd, 2010 at 7:23 pm
I’m pretty excited about Blood and Thunder, so any improvements to it’s functionality would be sweet. Imagine heroic throw pulling a group and then splashing them with aoe dots as soon they get close…instant threat building without a tab-devastate to be seen!
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September 2nd, 2010 at 8:40 pm
When I chuck an axe at someone, I want that mofo to bleeeeeeeed!
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September 2nd, 2010 at 9:47 pm
I’d rather it stick with Sunder Armor. I imagine we’ll still be using Thunder Clap nearly everytime it’s off it’s cooldown when we’re engaged with multiple mobs, thus it’ll add Rend to said new mob anyways.
I guess in the end it’s six in one, half dozen on the other. I would be happy either way.
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September 2nd, 2010 at 10:13 pm
Why not have both types?
I know Blizz haven’t done that to date, but it’s the sort of thing that would give people an interesting choice.
Do I want to have a sunder or a rend. Or perhaps sunder in this spec, rend in this spec.
I don’t know why they haven’t done this sort of thing already!
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September 2nd, 2010 at 11:27 pm
Being that others classes can sunder equally to us (like druid’s faerie light) and this idea could help B&T Prot warriors and Arms in movement battles (like Putricide and Valythria), I see the rend throw more flexible for speccing.
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September 3rd, 2010 at 12:03 am
I’d rather have full stack of SA on HT. Kinda like DKs get to apply their deseases instantly in cata. Rend sounds fun too. Plus it could be useful to Arms, helps with mobility issues.
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September 3rd, 2010 at 1:00 am
We already have a throw that applies sunder (shattering throw). I’d prefer rend if it were either/or.
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Veneretio reply on September 3, 2010 2:11 am:
Shattering Throw doesn’t apply Sunder. It’s a completely different debuff with a totally different purpose. (Burst DPS as opposed to Sustained DPS) Not to mention, you can’t use Shattering Throw in Defensive Stance.
No denying that a good Prot Warrior knows how to utilize Shattering Throw as well, but the fact that Shattering Throw exists has very little to do with this discussion imo.
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mister_six reply on September 3, 2010 1:35 pm:
Wicked late when I wrote that. My point was that they could add the sunder to shattering and rend to heroic. I have no idea why it came out that way. Aside from the bloody mary I was having….
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September 3rd, 2010 at 1:16 am
Neither, HT is for initial agro nothing more nothing less.
The only added benefit of HT applying sunder is that your next shield slam does a small portion of threat more.
In beta I am testing a rend-less build and like it alot. The new rend is still “meh” enough for it to stay out of my rotation. So neither of the ideas would apply to my situation.
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Veneretio reply on September 3, 2010 2:17 am:
So, you don’t see a value in being able to keep a full stack of Sunder Armor on 2 targets that have to be tanked away from each other? Or, even the ability to refresh your Sunder Armor stack, ensuring it doesn’t fall off, from ranged?
While I agree that applying Rend in a build without Blood and Thunder makes little sense, but can you not see the benefit of it in a build that does utilize it?
I feel like you missed the point of this post which is a failing on my part as the writer. That said, the idea behind it isn’t to apply it to the current Cataclysm Beta build. It’s to apply it to a finished, balanced Cataclysm product and determine which Glyph would have the bigger benefit/impact/interest.
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Zellviren reply on September 6, 2010 1:22 am:
I’m always on the lookout for more utility because, as a warrior tank, things aren’t thrown my way for free. But, being honest, I’m kind of siding with Vakimi here.
It’s not because I don’t see any value in talents like Blood and Thunder, or the Glyph of Shattering Throw; it’s because their value is so highly situational that they’re not worth considering outside of gimmick fights.
The ability to keep up your sunders at range sounds really nice, until you consider how often it’s actually worthwhile to do so (yes, even in Cataclysm). Equally, my current beta spec doesn’t contain Blood and Thunder yet I’m having no significant problems tanking the content.
Personally, I place both the talent and the glyph in the “Safeguard” bucket. Not worth taking whatsoever in a standard tanking build or raid set up, but undeniably powerful when the situation arises.
Plus, I’ve never liked Rend as a tanking ability and never have. I’m not trying to sway opinion with that, as it’s just a personal flavour preference.
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Zellviren reply on September 6, 2010 1:31 am:
Oh, forgot to say:
Rend is preferable for the Blood and Thunder synergy; it’s going to be slightly more common, I’d think.
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September 3rd, 2010 at 4:24 am
I’m really torn about Blood and Thunder, to be honest.
On the one hand, I really like the idea of being able to put that knid of warrior-appropriate persistent damage onto a pack of mobs. I think it will be a great help for tanking add packs and I would have loved to have had it in Wrath.
On the other hand, in a Cataclysm world where CC is going to be very important, I’m very concerned about how easy it will be to drop an AOE DOT on a pack of mobs and accidentally catch some of the targets you needed to CC in the blast. Suddenly a single button press which is part of your normal rotation can cause a raid wipe.
Yes, I realize we face that kind of thing regularly as tanks, but you get my point.
Currently mages can use a major glyph that removes DOTs from their polymorph target, but I don’t think any other class has that option. I also don’t think they should have to spend a major glyph to fix our goof.
Am I overreacting here? I think Blood and Thunder sounds like a fantastic design and I want to love it. I’m just concerned about how it will play in the Cata 5-man and raid environment.
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September 3rd, 2010 at 8:44 am
Given the number of times that I’ve said “Man, when do *I* get Rending Throw” after taking an axe to the ass on my way back to the Hammer during the lootship encounter, I guess I’m obligated to vote “Rend.”
However, in a raid setting, I think it’s ultimately more valuable for me to be able to maintain the Sunder debuff on 2 targets. I’m normally the only one in raid able to supply this debuff (though hunter pets in cata can alleviate this) so on fights that necessitate two bosses to be DPSed at a similar rate and killed together (R&J, Twin Emps… not really a mechanic they used in wrath short of Freya adds & Thad’s mini-bosses which do not count) the one with my Sunders usually pulls ahead. This would really help equalize that.
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September 3rd, 2010 at 9:57 am
I’m not sure how Blood and Thunder would play into this at all really. BnT spreads Rend around to targets that are hit with TC (Warrior Pestilence if you will). If you’re talking about using Heroic Throw to maintain Sunders from range, aren’t you also implying that the target is too far away to be Thunder Clapped? If you can TC a target, you can Devastate it also - no need to burn the Heroic Throw CD. I don’t see how a bleeding target 30 yards away from me will ever be able to be hit by TC (and therefore proc BnT).
The Rend option is nice I suppose - so long as it remains an option. I can forsee a few situations where I need to grab snap threat on somehting and would rather not have it bleeding when it’s needing to be re-CC’d *cough*deepwounds*cough*.
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Veneretio reply on September 3, 2010 12:50 pm:
I think you approached this too literally. The idea isn’t that they’re both good in a single situation, but instead that they both offer something that we can’t currently do and of those extra tools, which would we rather have?
The Rend suggest is to make Blood and Thunder’s impact more immediate when aoe tanking as currently, our rotation on multiple targets will probably look something like this:
TC > Shockwave > Rend > TC
HT + Rend makes that turn into:
TC > Shockwave > TC
It removes the Rend step completely and better yet, allows for the immediate application of Rend on the entire group you’re tanking.
As to your concern of wanting snap threat on something, but no wanting it to get Rended, I’d question whether or not the scenario will ever present itself. Personally, I’d always Taunt in this scenario and if I couldn’t, probably Charge. In the rare case that I’d want to Heroic Throw, but not Rend, I feel like that situation is so unique that I would know about it ahead of time and simply turn off the Glyph for that encounter. (I’m having trouble imagining a fight I’ve ever done where I’d be in this situation though)
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September 3rd, 2010 at 2:58 pm
i don’t see how applying rend would be of much use, since B&T requires you to be in TC range. at that point, it’s just as easy to rend the target.
the only value i really see is being able to refresh rend from ranged on a fight like sindy where you often lose your sunder stack with the boss out of melee range.
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mister_six reply on September 3, 2010 11:29 pm:
Heroic throw > Charge > tclap You could skip the rend step altogether.
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September 3rd, 2010 at 4:30 pm
The synergy with rend seems to be more to help with spawning/streaming adds, where the adds spawn, you Heroic throw (To apply rend debuff)>Charge, TC (and with Blood and Thunder, rend gets applied to all the adds).
It’d make for much easier pickup in situations like with the Onyxia whelps, or even more recently, Deathwhisper adds.
In that kind of situation, I’d MUCH rather have Heroic Throw apply the rend debuff. It seems to me that is what Blood and Thunder is more suited for anyhow.
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September 4th, 2010 at 11:23 am
Rend on HT would be pro.
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September 7th, 2010 at 5:36 am
In a standard situation, I think Rend would have much more utility than Sunder at range. Enemies at range rarely stay at range long; I can’t see a situation where you would be needing to maintain a sunder on an enemy at a distance. The idea of the Sunder Glyph is nice tho, 2 sunders at range would be pretty great, though i don’t know that even that would be better than rend
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Dread reply on September 8, 2010 8:23 am:
That’s the Devastate glyph, no? I don’t think it works on straight sunder armors.
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September 7th, 2010 at 7:39 am
As a prot/fury warrior, I’d love HT/Rend in both specs. It’s a major glyph rather than prime ATM, isn’t it? I wouldn’t give up a major for a free rend every minute, but I’d hazard a guess that HT/Rend is something which is a definitely a dps increase if only a minor one.
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September 7th, 2010 at 5:28 pm
Off-Topic, but I’m thinking Blood and Thunder means Charge/Rend macro?
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Arold reply on September 7, 2010 5:34 pm:
oh wait, stupid gcd
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thebitterfig reply on September 7, 2010 8:28 pm:
Charge at least was off GCD in live, not sure about cata. However, you won’t get to the mob right off and be able to Rend instantly, and thus macroing it in might not be the best idea.
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Dread reply on September 8, 2010 8:40 am:
I would leave rend off the macro. Hotkey it to something and learn it, you’ll be better off.
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September 8th, 2010 at 9:43 am
I’d like it if HT would apply rend - one less thing to worry about.
How many of you are currently using rend? Between the DK and the Kitty, I personally don’t currently have the time to rend something - unless I want the cat or DK to off-tank.
If I could HT-charge-TClap and already have the rend all over, I’d like that!
If HT applies a sunder, I’d still have to apply rend (something new for me) and TC etc.
I think it depends on how much threat rend causes, if I’m multi-mob tanking, or if I’m single-target tanking.
Disclaimer: I may be a n00b not rending already.
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September 9th, 2010 at 10:52 am
I would rather Heroic Throw apply rend and glyphing Shattering throw would allow for use in zerker stance and also apply sunder instead of the normal effect.
This would let dps warriors maintain sunder while at range. This would also force a choice of dps vs utility for the dps and keep prot warriors from being forced to glyph it.
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Dread reply on September 9, 2010 11:59 am:
Senseless to apply sunder at range. Glyphed Devastate applies 2, you’d have it in 3 gcd’s.
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Dread reply on September 13, 2010 5:49 pm:
*2 gcds…
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September 10th, 2010 at 1:39 pm
mmmm rend would so hot. even better would be both! refresh sunders and rend on a heroic throw.
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September 17th, 2010 at 8:27 am
In a perfect world, we could get one glyph that provides and refreshes sunders and a second glyph to apply rend. That way, you can have the rend glyph active for trash and the SA glyph active for boss fights.
With that said having to choose between one or the other, I think rend would probably suit us better especially in the early stages of Cataclysm when everyone needs to relearn how to focus fire. Having the ability to maintain a sustainable AOE threat on every target near us while maintaining our regular priority system on our kill target. would be amazing. Granted we’d only be freeing up one GCD, but that one GCD could have a lot of impact especially in those first few precious seconds of a pull. This is especially prevelent with the changes to defensive stance as well as cleave and HS going on a 3 second CD.
Also, being able to maintain SA stacks on a ranged target would prove to be a moot point considering that, with gag order, you’d be most likely using HT on a caster target to silence them right off the pull and bring them into melee range.
However, being able to add a sunder stack’s worth of threat to HS on the opening of a boss pull would be pretty epic. Think of the burst threat when followed up by a shield slam with shield block active!
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September 18th, 2010 at 10:34 pm
I’d like to see Rend applied on charge.
Major Glyph
Glyph of Charge - Your charge applies rend, but no longer stuns the target.
or maybe even
Glyph of Warbringer - Your charge and intercept apply rend, but no longer stun the target.
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Deathsupply reply on September 28, 2010 2:51 pm:
I approve of this message.
Glyph of Warbrginer would be AWSOMESAUCE!
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Celanos reply on October 11, 2010 9:35 am:
This definitely has my vote for PvE. One reason I might see blizzard not doing rend-on-heroic throw is that it makes applying rend way too easy; HT > Charge > TC and blood spills all over…
I would gladly give up the short stun for rend!
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October 13th, 2010 at 3:34 pm
is this website dead?
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October 19th, 2010 at 11:07 am
After playing with the current glyphs, apply rend would be so much better. Warriors lost a lot of snap aoe threat with the dmg reduction to tclap. Now, you have to charge in and gather the mobs, rend, tclap, shockwave. By the time you get the rend going on everything, someone has threat on something.
Even if you tclap on the charge in, the dmg/threat is minimal and you still lose something. Putting rend on the throw allows you to just charge in, gather, and tclap. This makes threating more efficient.
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Annalyze reply on October 22, 2010 12:27 pm:
Agree completely. Rend on heroic throw would rock
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October 20th, 2010 at 8:45 pm
Is Venertio absent? I’m suprised this hasn’t been updated with a more detailed discussion of the new tanking method and future content…
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October 22nd, 2010 at 2:18 pm
I would like to have rend definately. Only want to see it apply from charge too. I don’t like the idea that warriors are already talking about the charge, rend, TC rotation to hold threat. BORING! Blizz should give us the rend off charge its fair. Rend would be more like D&D from a DK. DK drops D&D gets an instant dot on the mob and doesnt have to worry about additional button and time to spread the dot and D&D causes some signicant damage to the mob. That would also let us start using sunder right away, that would make a difference.
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